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LaughingWizard
Acolyte
USA
29 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jan 2005 : 08:04:45
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Well Met, one and all! My thanks to you Mr. Greenwood et. al. for bringing us the Realms. Do you care to elaborate on why the Shandril Saga ended as it did (I was very disappointed, and focusing on Narm at the end did nothing for me.) I know from one of the Hooded One's threads that the final decision was mandated to you. If it hadn't been would you have ended things differently? Like yourself my campaign uses 2ndE rules, and we haven't moved past the Year of Shadows yet. So in my corner of the Realms, Shandril lives on! By the way, Spellfire was an awesome story! I felt like I was there! Don't mind the critics! I would love to see the whole thing (in other words your original.) Until Next.
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A woman, or a man, may come to hold many treasures in life. Gold, gems, a good name, lovers, good friends, influence, high rank--all of these are of value. All of these most covet. But of them all the most valuable, I tell ye, are friends good and true. Have these, and ye will scarce notice the lack if ye never win aught else."
The adventuress Sharanralee, Ballads and Lore of One Dusty Road, Year of the Wandering Maiden
From Spellfire by Ed Greenwood |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2005 : 16:17:24
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Laughing Wizard, your question is a very good one. Ed is REALLY snowed under with work at the moment, but he did discuss this privately via e-mail with us Knights (his original players), and if he gives his permission, I’ll quote some relevant bits of his e-answers to us, here.
Stay tuned. 
THO
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2005 : 17:17:53
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There is also this:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/2566/ed-whyisent.htm |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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LaughingWizard
Acolyte
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2005 : 19:50:56
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| Thanks, to Kuje31 and The Hooded One. I appreciate the replies and look forward to hearing more. Until Next. |
A woman, or a man, may come to hold many treasures in life. Gold, gems, a good name, lovers, good friends, influence, high rank--all of these are of value. All of these most covet. But of them all the most valuable, I tell ye, are friends good and true. Have these, and ye will scarce notice the lack if ye never win aught else."
The adventuress Sharanralee, Ballads and Lore of One Dusty Road, Year of the Wandering Maiden
From Spellfire by Ed Greenwood |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2005 : 01:23:28
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Hello, all. Here from some old e-mails, are words of Ed Greenwood’s relevant to Laughing Wizard’s query, reproduced here with Ed’s permission:
I doubt I’ll ever get the chance to publish the original version of Spellfire. Because of the cut-and-paste-and-photocopy second draft I had to do (it was written in longhand and then typed, BC = before computers), I’d have to reconstruct it anyway.
It ran to about 220,000 words, but was later, before I handed in the first draft, cut to 150,000 words (which is what the contract specified), and initially did what Jim Ward and Jeff Grubb asked me to: “show the Realms to the waiting world. Shoot the works, write whatever you like, but show us many of the most powerful characters. You’ll be doing a book a year, at least, so don’t bother to tell us all of their stories, just bring ’em onstage to get everyone interested in them.”
When I said that last requirement sounded like it would make a book with no plot or a dogs-breakfast of a plot, Jean Black, then head of TSR Books, suggested I put some world-shaking menace into the book that would draw everyone important into being involved. Hence spellfire.
- - -
Spellfire was never supposed to be available to just anyone, and the attempts to make it into a character class or game ability for characters have been disasters, because it’s a world-beater. From the first, I wanted to underscore the tragedy (hence the original fate of Shandril’s mother) that it consumes anyone who has it: it’s a death sentence. So Shandril was doomed from the first. And so was her unborn child: to heal Narm, she had to sacrifice the child inside her. THAT was something TSR ran a mile from!
- - -
I never wanted this to be a trilogy. As I told Mary Kirchoff when she took over Books Dept., I was against deliberate fantasy trilogies (which almost always have an ‘unfinished’ Book One, an ‘everybody runs everywhere and nothing gets resolved’ Book Two, and a ‘grand parade with trumpet flourishes, impossible for the good guys to win but somehow they do’ Book Three). Ongoing series yes, but trilogies no.
This meant everything was just left hanging until Mary departed, and Jim Lowder then asked me to “at last” write the sequel to Spellfire, which became Crown of Fire.
Crown is a plot disaster, and that’s my fault, because I overwrote again and couldn’t wrap things up properly in the wordcount given. I also very much wanted to introduce more toys for gamers to play with (like bringing in Mirt and Oprion Blackstone and the sewers of Zhentil Keep and the Hidden House), and doing so pulled the story out of shape. So did the editorial requirements to use beholders, the Zhents (especially Manshoon), the Knights of Myth Drannor, Elminster and Storm (“to make sure readers know this is a Realms book” [!]) and “a new villain, give us a good one and destroy him; an undead would be neat” (the lich lord). I wanted to kill Delg to force Shandril to be the hero by herself, and did so (knowing many readers would just HATE it), and I wanted to show Sarhthor’s self-sacrifice. A lot of beholder motivation scenes, wherein they discussed what to do with human underlings, got cut by the editors (I wish we’d had web enchancements then: they could have been published but kept out of the narrative, which, yes, they really slowed down) and those would have been useful to DMs, too.
Hand of Fire was written “to finish up Shandril’s story, and her with it.” I had to kill her off, and didn’t want to (in that manner), and decided to use the book to bring onstage Hesperdan and the Maimed Wizard and some other useful future toys, and to give readers a glimpse of Scornubel and a good look at what a Sword Coast caravan run was like. Again, it was suggested I bring in Mirt and the Seven and Sharantyr for walk-on parts, “because readers want to see them.”
- - -
Many readers, because of what was done to Spellfire, just don’t understand one of the sideline things I was trying to do with that book: turn fantasy cliches on their heads. The “hero” is a weakling (and stays that way), and the heroine is the strong one - - but unwilling. She wanted adventure (and be careful what you wish for . . .). So she’s not confident, she doesn’t act cool and collected, and she screws up - - a lot. Which is what most real “heroes” do, of course.
Those cliches? Well, no one ever kills off an adventuring party, because, hey, they’re the heroes. So, wham, I killed off the Company of the Bright Spear. The all-wise wizard always stumbles by chance onto the scene when folks need rescuing and instantly knows EXACTLY what’s going on and what to do - - so I had Elminster and Florin stroll right through a battle, with Old El oblivious. No one ever goes to the bathroom, or attacks the good guys when they’re asleep, making love, or otherwise at a disadvantage (whereas the good guys can ALWAYS do that to the bad guys). So I put in a scene (cut right away, because, saith TSR, we don’t have bathroom humour in our books!) wherein Shandril goes off into the bushes near the rest of the Company, as they travel overland, and the Zhents who’ve been stalking them and waiting for just this opportunity attack the rest of the Company, who shout to Shandril for help. Being as she’s a teenaged girl with her pants around her ankles, there’s NO WAY she’s coming out of those bushes just then, so she keeps yelling back, “Just a moment!” and so on. In most adventure fiction, from the original Wizard of Oz movie onwards, good guys and bad guys alike ‘off’ guards casually to get into fortresses. I wrote several such scenes - - and added little tales for the reader about just who this guard was, his dreams, his wife and kids back home, and so on, to drive home the loss of a life, rather than just passing it off as a moment of casual bloodshed.
You name the cliche, and I took a run at it. The problem is, only a few of my ‘runs’ survived, all distorted, as the book was hacked apart and then a few surviving pieces of it were stitched back together again into a quite different narrative.
Sometimes clumsily. For instance, there’s a reference in the original published version of Spellfire to a darkenbeast (TSR name: I originally called them “dark horrors”) attack on Harper’s Hill, but that entire scene was chopped out. I remember getting a puzzled call from a TSR designer working on a monster compendium, later, wondering just what the hey these ‘darkenbeasts’ were, as he’d read the entire novel through three times and couldn’t find them!
Also, the first printing of Spellfire refers to the toppling of Ferostil’s “corpse” on page 50, but Ferostil is up and fighting again two pages later! This is the result of editors writing of an entire character out of the ranks of the Company, telescoping two fighters into one (in later printings of the first version of Spellfire, “corpse” got changed to “body” to cover this up). And so on. Because TSR didn’t deliver the computer to me that I was supposed to write Spellfire on (it was to be my advance payment) until well after the “final” draft of the novel was handed in, various secretaries at TSR were called on to input sections of my manuscript, and (I was told) some of them edited my quasi-medieval English phrasings into modern American business English! And so on. The point is, the whole thing became a comedy of errors, and no one came out of it looking good.
My two biggest edit regrets: 1. The removal of many, many scenes of Narm and Shandril entombed together and deciding they’re going to die, and only then deciding that if they’re going to die anyway, they want to at least have the pleasure and comfort of having made love to someone once, and ONLY THEN having sex (of which my only description was “They twisted and arched fiercely in the darkness.”). Not only did they discuss a lot of life issues and thereby show us both their own characters and lots of Realms attitudes, the result was ludicrous lust rather than tenderness: in the published book, the moment the lights are out and they’re alone, it’s off clothes and have at each other!
2. The removal of the entire layer of story of El and The Simbul battling the Malaugrym, so it then seems as if they and the Knights just heartlessly abandon Narm and Shandril. I tried to put back some of these in the Spellfire rewrite, but we all know what happened there. Among other things, that’s why we ended up with TWO dracoliches at the end of Spellfire, rather than just one. Grrr.
- - -
Spellfire didn’t work as well (as an assignment, to introduce a lot of the important NPCs of the Realms, and “show us the Realms”) as I wanted it to, because the editing trimmed a lot of characters that weren’t seen as germane to the main plot, but it still works: when you read it, the Realms does “come alive.” It was supposed to be the first Realms book, and do the big tour of the world (that Bob ended up doing a bit of, in Streams of Silver), but I still, warts and all, like it, in that it remains an entertaining pulp read. Which is all I was being allowed to do, with TSR trimming out the satiric elements and the original picaresque presentation and the layers of meaning.
It also works as a commercial book, with sales (If I can believe the royalty statements) of well over 500,000 copies, if one counts all the foreign editions, and still going. As far as I know, that’s territory that only Bob and Margaret & Tracy reach, so SOME readers liked it. A lot of “some” readers, actually. :}
- - -
Note the “New, Expanded Edition” notation on the cover of the second version of Spellfire. Don’t believe it. I was given the chance to put back all the Malaugrym stuff, so long as my rewrite wasn’t a word longer. In fact, this was emphasized to me thus: “For every word you add, you have to take one out.” so I did that, trimming a lot of colour text and details from the original published version to put back a minimal, stripped-down version of the “El and The Simbul and the Knights battle the Malaugrym” into the book.
After it was all done, handed in, and accepted, another 10,000 or so words were sliced out of the book, without my involvement, “to bring it down to the length of Realms books we’re now doing.” This was done by going through the entire book trimming words here and there from almost every sentence - - which of course inevitably destroys the writing style. I’m STILL angry about that.
- - -
Hand of Fire was written in horrible haste, and revised even faster, and I’m not very pleased with the result. However, I was prevented from telling Shandril’s tale as I originally wanted to tell it, in a four-book series, which was:
Hand of Fire: Narm and Shandril use a succession of ancient gates to ‘jump’ in stages towards Silverymoon, pursued hotly by the Zhents (whose infighting we’re shown, in detail).
Narm and Shandril attract the attention of beings who guard the gates by using them, and by slow stages, they possess Narm and turn him into something far more ruthless, wise, and formidable-in-magic than he was. He betrays Shandril, and she defeats him but tries to rescue him, and gets them both (Narm badly wounded) to Silverymoon.
Book Four (“Tomb of Fire”?): In Silverymoon, Shandril is jumped by some of the Zhent agents there, but is rescued and taken to Alustriel. She pleads with Alustriel to aid Narm and herself, and Alustriel takes Narm away to be healed (and also to be a hostage for Shandril’s good behaviour and remaining in Silverymoon) and privately wrestles with the decision as to whether or not just destroying Shandril will be best for the Realms.
Mirt and Asper (along with some other Harpers) make their way to Silverymoon. Sharantyr (following the trail of gates, and also slowly being influenced by their guardians) also comes to Silverymoon.
The Zhents (including priests and beholders) attack Silverymoon in earnest, calling in various powerful wizards as allies with promises of sharing spellfire, trying to get Shandril (and promising to stop and withdraw if she’s surrendered to them). At the same time, the Cult of the Dragon attacks slyly in a ‘snatch and grab’ attempt as the Zhent battles are raging.
Shandril talks to Alustriel, is horrified to learn that Alustriel is keeping Narm as a hostage, even more horrified to learn about the bloodshed happening over her, and resolves to give herself to the Zhents to end it. Alustriel tells her that doing so won’t end it, but Shandril bursts out of the Palace and fire-flies through the wards (literally burning a hole in them) to reach the Zhents.
Who of course start to fight among themselves over her, and be attacked by Dragon Cultists. Narm learns what she’s done, and bursts out of his confinement to go and rescue her. Mirt and Asper and Sharantyr all get in on the fighting, which is outside the city, south of Southbank Silverymoon, and Mirt sacrifices himself to protect Shandril.
She’s devastated, and even more stricken when Narm is mortally wounded. She hurls all her spellfire into healing him once more, leaving herself vulnerable, and all the Zhent wizards pour spells into her, seeking to gain control of her mind or body and thus of spellfire, rather than to destroy her.
Alustriel then ‘rides the Weave’ into Shandril, to try to prevent this, but is mentally fought to a halt by all the Zhents. Fearing Shandril’s mind will be burnt out like a candle in this struggle, Alustriel mentally ‘calls in’ Elminster and The Simbul from distant corners of Faerûn, and they, too, ‘ride the Weave’ into Shandril’s mind, and ruthlessly take control of her spellfire, using it to blast down Zhent after Zhent until the Zhents all flee.
Whereupon they restore Narm and Shandril physically, blot out most of their memories, ‘pour’ the spellfire out of her (forever) into the Weave, and leave her as . . . a young, pregnant lass with no powers save the natural ability to wield magic, and some dreams.
For their own protection, the three Chosen then grimly alter the appearances of Narm and Shandril (letting readers know they’ve had to do this many times before) and take them elsewhere to start a new life, and the (last Shandril) book ends with Shandril in the humble farm-cottage she shares with Narm, telling him of her strange, vivid, recurring nightmares of blasting beholders and skeletal dragons and being chased by sinister wizards, and wondering if it’s the child she carries that’s upsetting her mind so (written in such a way as to make the reader wonder if the unborn child is going to have spellfire, or be some sort of Great Villain or Great Monster).
The reader, and only the reader (not Narm or Shandril) is shown the wraith-like guardian creatures of the gates gathering in the cottage shadows, silently watching Shandril as she lies abed with Narm musing about this, to underscore that THEY’RE waiting for her babe to be born.
All of which, of course, sets up future books if (and only if) TSR wants them, centered on Shandril’s child.
I did submit this to TSR, and Brian Thomsen mentioned that he liked it and “wanted to get to it after we’ve done all the other books we want you to do first.” This was NOT a ‘yes, yes, delay forever’ gambit on his part, in my judgement, but an honest attempt to first accommodate my desire to do a Mirt and Durnan novel, and Crazed Venturers books, and a Knights of Myth Drannor series, and a Waterdeep “mean streets” series, and all the other things I hadn’t had the chance to write in that seven years after Spellfire when I was so busy churning out and helping others write a flood of Realms products, to really establish the setting. And I can’t and don’t blame TSR for that: above all, they wanted to avoid the “Gary bottleneck” that had so plagued Greyhawk: Gary Gygax was so busy running TSR that he couldn’t find the time to write the Greyhawk products he so sorely wanted to write, and had mentioned, and the fans were so (increasingly) impatiently waiting for, as the years passed . . . and passed . . . so there was NO WAY they were going to let the same thing happen with me.
Brian of course moved on after Wizards swallowed TSR, and Shandril’s Saga became a trilogy.
As with so many things I didn’t want to write but did, the threat was always “you write it or we’ll get someone else to write it” - - and I sure as blazes didn’t want anyone else to do the killing off of Shandril.
xxxxxxxxx
THO here.
I asked Ed about probably the only valid criticism Winterfox made, in the Spending 50 Dollars thread, among all the other nasty things she said about Spellfire: everybody calling each other “my lord” and “my lady.”
Here’s Ed’s reply:
xxxxxxxxx
Husbands and wives refer to each other that way (regardless of what real-world rank or title they have or lack), as a sign of reverence and love. Servants, sworn bondsmen, and knights speak to their lords and ladies like that, too (a usage that should already be familiar to even those who’ve only seen Hollywood takes on medieval feudalism). Social inferiors address their superiors that way, also (sometimes mockingly), although in my original manuscript I have whores and serving wenches saying, “Milord” and “Milady” as distinct from “My Lord” and “My Lady,” so you can tell the usages apart. The editors slashed those differences out of existence right away.
As to WHY all of these folk in the Realms talk this way: that’s the way I wanted it. It was after all MY fantasy world back then, and I’d just been asked to introduce a wider audience to “my Realms,” this manner of speech was a detail I wanted in the world I was creating. TSR was quite right, from their point of view, to simplify my courtly and archaic language, eliminate most duplications of character names in the world, and so on. But when it was just my world, I crafted it the way I wanted it.
I suppose Winterfox might criticize Tolkien for putting elves and dwarves into Middle-Earth, too, if he was still alive to give her the chance. It puzzles me why anyone who has so much hurtful and impolite to say about a fantasy world joins and participates in a Net forum dedicated to that fantasy setting, but only she can tell us that.
I DON’T disagree with most of the things she says about the Shandril books in what you sent me, because after the editing was done, a lot of the plot IS missing, I made some mistakes when crafting it in the first place, and I wasn’t particularly interested in doing a plot-driven (as opposed to character-driven) book back then anyway. However, a lot of Winterfox’s posts in what you’ve sent me this past year seem to involve tearing apart or advising against books she says she hasn’t read, or bad-mouthing books not for what they are, but because the author didn’t write the book Winterfox seems to think they should have written (both cardinal sins for any reviewer, that still get people fired in the print journalism world today; the third such sin - - not something I’ve seen any evidence of Winterfox doing, by the way - - being “knowing” what an author is thinking because of what their characters say, or pretending to be able to see their thoughts and so “know” their motives for, or intentions in, writing this or that).
I’ll be interested to watch and see, when the Waterdeep book comes out, how much she tries to blame whatever she sees as “bad” in it on me, and assign what she sees as “good” about it to Elaine (who’s a very good friend of mine, and whom I loved doing the book with), whose works she says she likes.
On the other hand, Winterfox has a way with words, and so would quite possibly make a good writer herself (and no, I’m not saying that so I can pounce on her writings and rend them, though as a professional editor YOU certainly have the skills and experience to very fairly do so, Lovely Hooded). Why don’t you suggest that to her?
As attentive scribes know, I did just that last year, and she was NOT pleased. Ah, well. I hope these outtakes of Ed’s help to answer your query, Laughing Wizard.
love to all,
THO
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36794 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2005 : 02:16:24
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Wow, that is an insanely detailed reply...
I'll admit, I really didn't like the way Hand of Fire played out, and I didn't like certain sections of the previous books... But now, reading about just how badly they were mangled, and what Ed intended, I think I shall no longer complain about those books.
Obviously, had Ed been allowed to write them as he wished, and then have them published with little modification, it would have been a far better series... Alas, but this did not happen. Maybe next time...  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2005 : 04:48:50
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Whee. This is fun.
Ed Greenwood, through THO, said:
quote:
I suppose Winterfox might criticize Tolkien for putting elves and dwarves into Middle-Earth, too, if he was still alive to give her the chance. It puzzles me why anyone who has so much hurtful and impolite to say about a fantasy world joins and participates in a Net forum dedicated to that fantasy setting, but only she can tell us that.
To that, I actually enjoy reading the works of several authors. I do think that Ed Greenwood (uh, you; I feel a bit awkward addressing you directly when, well, THO is the one typing the message) is a great game developer and creator of a setting, but his (uhm, your) novels -- writing style, characters and all -- are strictly not my cup of tea. Yes, I do think it's possible to dislike the original creator's work and prefer the offshoots. I'm not really a fan of the SW movies or their novelizations, but I can still like Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy.
quote:
However, a lot of Winterfox’s posts in what you’ve sent me this past year seem to involve tearing apart or advising against books she says she hasn’t read...
Okay, this I have to query in genuine puzzlement: since when have I blasted a book I haven't read?
quote:
I’ll be interested to watch and see, when the Waterdeep book comes out, how much she tries to blame whatever she sees as “bad” in it on me, and assign what she sees as “good” about it to Elaine (who’s a very good friend of mine, and whom I loved doing the book with), whose works she says she likes.
Thank you for the guideline. =p
quote:
EG: On the other hand, Winterfox has a way with words, and so would quite possibly make a good writer herself (and no, I’m not saying that so I can pounce on her writings and rend them, though as a professional editor YOU certainly have the skills and experience to very fairly do so, Lovely Hooded). Why don’t you suggest that to her?
THO: As attentive scribes know, I did just that last year, and she was NOT pleased.
Uhm, how about... no.
I stated in a post, well before you suggested that, that I write. Then, after you suggested it, I told you in explicit terms that, yes, I do write. (Or type, rather. Put fingers to keyboard and all.) Perhaps I didn't make it clear that, yea verily, I've written works of prose. Fictional prose, even. *points at signature* Unless, of course, you're going to say that fanfiction doesn't qualify as "real" writing. (Feel free; every second person seems to think that unless it is original fiction -- no matter how cruddy -- the writing is automatically more valid.) |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2005 : 05:13:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wow, that is an insanely detailed reply...
Yeah, what's the name of that song..."It's getting hot in here..."
quote:
But now, reading about just how badly they were mangled, and what Ed intended, I think I shall no longer complain about those books.
One of my players enjoyed the series although I'm not sure if she read the last novel. As for myself, I have never read a single entry in the trilogy and after reading this thread, I'm going to keep it that way. I certainly hope future novels don't suffer similar fates. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2005 : 06:06:12
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Let us call upon the good graces of Oghma and Deneir and hope that one day Ed actually gets to write the books he wants to write. I adore his novels for the "feel" they have - and the juicy tidbits of realmslore that he sneaks in, oh so gently - but think that quite a few of his efforts have the sensation of being rushed. Why can't you have a 500,000 word FR novel? If all the young kids can sit down and read through LotR, why wouldn't they do it for the Realms? A huge book about the Harpers (set in the present and dwelling on their split with the Moonstars) but showcasing their development from the days of Myth Drannor to the Dancing Place to Twilight Hall et. al. and showcasing the hidden things they do in the Realms (like police 'gates', safeguard small realms and settlements, play off bad guys against each other, et. al.): it would sell like hotcakes, no matter how long it was. Oh, and where you read Harpers above, insert a bunch of different alternatives: the Covenant, the Lords Alliance, Aglarond, the War Wizards of Cormyr and a bunch of others. Ahh, brack - it'll never happen so why ask for it ... .
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 10 Jan 2005 23:45:51 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2005 : 15:09:52
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George, most of Ed’s books feel rushed because they ARE rushed. For a variety of reasons and causes (and in the early days of the Realms it was primarily because TSR’s games people and Books and Publicity/Marketing and Licensing people were all competing for Ed’s time, in an frantic attempt to make sure Ed did NOT become a bottleneck to the unfolding presentation of the Realms), Ed often writes a novel draft in a month or so, and does rewrites in about half the time. Moreover, TSR and now WotC have developed a habit (widespread in the publishing industry, by the way - - and as an editor, I know whereof I speak) of requiring more wordcount in a contract than they ever intend to put into the final book. Ed remembers being asking, for Spellfire, why the contract said 150,000 words when the editor had told him “under 120,000” and being told if he didn’t bring it in at just over 150,000, he wouldn’t get paid - - so he did that and later, sure enough, it got trimmed to under 120,000. Couple this with Ed always wanting to tell a ‘wider’ story than will fit into any book, and you get abrupt, rushed, whirlwind endings as he frantically tries to tie everything up.
What Ed would REALLY like to do is abandon the “generate outline, get it editor-approved, then follow it strictly” system so beloved of Marketing departments anywhere (though it isn’t really necessary: check out the current catalogue blurb for Ed and Elaine’s Waterdeep book to see how specific contents info can be ‘weaseled around’ if the Marketing Department doesn’t know specific contents) and get approval for just the central situation/conflict of the novel and some specific characters, and then sit down, start writing, and “let the characters tell the story.”
We’ll see if it ever happens.
In the meantime, Ed replies to Winterfox:
That’s fine. As a longtime reader and librarian, I love the variety of fantasy books I can dip into, too. To have that, of course there have to be writers who aren’t my or your cup of tea. Thank goodness, or there’d only ever be one writer in the world churning out books, and we’d ALL read that one gal or guy, and have to wait for them to die before the next writer would get a chance. I’d love to please everyone, but I know I can’t, and I can live with that.
BTW, I forgot one more usage of “my lord” and “my lady” (which you’ll see in the Waterdeep book unless editing wipes it away): nobles, as a matter of established etiquette, address individuals they’re trying to flatter or impress in this way even when they KNOW they’re not talking to someone with a title - - and so do ardent non-nobles trying to seduce or impress someone who’s caught their eye. For example, a noble who jostles a maidservant and causes her to drop something, but who wants to soothe her or even bed her because she’s stunningly beautiful, might well call her “my lady” as he apologizes and helps her gather up whatever fell.
Also, pre-editing, “my lady” and “my lord” meant such ‘false’ addresses, or mere courtesy addresses (a soldier calling a senior priest he’s never met before “my lord” to be polite), whereas “my Lady” and “my Lord” meant the speaker was addressing either their mate or someone who they’ve sworn fealty to.
So saith Ed. Who’s now working on his 174th book, I believe . . .
love to all,
THO
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2005 : 16:30:38
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Instead, we get novels about canals in the Realms.
-- George Krashos
I suspect you have not read the manuscript of Book I of the Watercourse Trilogy, which makes me wonder why you would be dismissive of its premise. Phil Athans is a class guy, and a friend, but he doesn't frequent message boards, or, if he does, doesn't respond to the kind of comments you just made. So I will. What is your basis for the disdainful eyeroll? Doesn't suit your vision of the Realms? How could you know, based solely on jacket copy?
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Edited by - PaulSKemp on 10 Jan 2005 16:36:13 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2005 : 17:15:13
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Instead, we get novels about canals in the Realms.
-- George Krashos
Actually, I'm looking forward to the first novel in the trilogy because it is so different than other premises.
Now, I have not enjoyed the previous Athans' novel I read. But, I'm willing to give this new series a chance. |
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Lauzoril
Seeker
Finland
71 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2005 : 17:53:39
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Same here, waiting eagerly for the first part of Water trilogy. It's nice to see a full trilogy made by P. Athans. For some reason I've liked all of his past novels/stories. His ideas tend be unusual in some areas but they fit nicely with the whole thing. His trademark of gory and messy details are always a nice touch to the story.
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"Death to the enemies of Bane."
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2005 : 19:02:02
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Instead, we get novels about canals in the Realms.
-- George Krashos
I suspect you have not read the manuscript of Book I of the Watercourse Trilogy, which makes me wonder why you would be dismissive of its premise. Phil Athans is a class guy, and a friend, but he doesn't frequent message boards, or, if he does, doesn't respond to the kind of comments you just made. So I will. What is your basis for the disdainful eyeroll? Doesn't suit your vision of the Realms? How could you know, based solely on jacket copy?
Well met
I'm sure George didn't mean anything disrespectful in that comment. I must get those emoticons sorted out too, it's not the first time someone here has gotten into trouble by using that particular one 
Mayhaps ye could fill us all in with some futher information on the Watercourse Trilogy, Paul? I'm quite intrigued by the idea, myself. I believe there's a scroll just here for discussion 
Ahh, and one just here. |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Edited by - Alaundo on 10 Jan 2005 19:02:54 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36794 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2005 : 23:12:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
I must get those emoticons sorted out too, it's not the first time someone here has gotten into trouble by using that particular one
Indeed, we need more emoticons! The only other forum I'm active on has like 150+ emoticons, so there's always a good one handy.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2005 : 23:44:31
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With all due respect to Phil Athans who I'm told is a great guy who works really hard at the no doubt thankless job (especially from idiots like me) of running the FR novels department, a trilogy (and the fact that three books are devoted to the premise rankles me, yes it does ...) of FR novels about the building of a canal does absolutely nothing whatsoever to excite me and make me look forward to these books. Sure, it's early days and we have little or no information on the content of the books - and my views may change depending on such information - but in a fantasy, high magic place like the Realms, the premise feels a tad anachronistic to me. But then again, I'm sure I'm in the minority and there is likely a ton of FR fans out there with engineering backgrounds who are salivating at the prospect.
I concede the emoticon was out of line but I was tapping away in the heat of the moment. No excuse, I know. Paul did as he always does, and reined me back into line. Thanks Paul! I've since edited my original post.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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LaughingWizard
Acolyte
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2005 : 00:07:45
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Many Thanks Hooded One.
I appreciate the reply from Ed, which I will share with my gaming friends. That makes me feel slightly better about Shandril's Saga. Being involved in writing (though not yet published) I know a little bit about how what an author wants and what is finally printed is two different things. I agree with Wooly Rupert; it would be nice to see Ed able to write Spellfire as he originally intended. Note to SiriusBlack: Go ahead and read Spellfire and Crown of Fire. They're enormously entertaining, funny, and well...Realmsian. They were the first novels I ever read that gave the reader a taste of what a band of friends (read adventurers) might be like! It is the essence of what we all do--role play! However, if you don't like sad endings (which I don't...we have enough of those in real life) DO NOT read Hand of Fire. (Sorry Ed. Meaning no disrespect. My ire is directed towards WotC.)
Probably why I'm still unpublished is that I LIKE the old stereotypical ...and they lived happily ever after! Its what started me reading fantasy and will always get me, every time. I don't think that novels need to imitate life, we read to get away from that for a while! So, I may or may not have liked the Ed original ending, but it darn sure sounds better than the one WotC gave us. (And left the door open for future novels! But why! did they want her dead! It just doesn't make good sense to kill off completely the main character that readers have identified with through three novels. I can understand her being stripped of her spellfire, but don't kill her! Ah well. They were excellent stories ED! (The first two anyway...My favorite quote shall always be Sharanralee's about friends good and true. |
A woman, or a man, may come to hold many treasures in life. Gold, gems, a good name, lovers, good friends, influence, high rank--all of these are of value. All of these most covet. But of them all the most valuable, I tell ye, are friends good and true. Have these, and ye will scarce notice the lack if ye never win aught else."
The adventuress Sharanralee, Ballads and Lore of One Dusty Road, Year of the Wandering Maiden
From Spellfire by Ed Greenwood |
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2005 : 00:18:25
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George,
No worries and no harm done. I tend to be oversensitive to these things.
When I started writing in FR, a veteran told me that I can hold whatever opinion I want regarding other FR authors/designers, but that if I didn't have something nice to say in a public forum, I damn well better say nothing at all. His exact words were: "We keep that stuff in the family." There's no reason you should feel obliged to adhere to that. I offer it only by way of explanation for my post -- you're a Realmslore scholar and have been integral to the Realm's development over the years. Your opinion may carry a certain gravitas among fans. To me, you are therefore part of the family -- one of the patriarchs of the family, in fact. And while I acknowledge that I am but a junior member, I thought that even a Don of the family sometimes needs a bloody horse's head under his bedcovers, just as a reminder. |
Edited by - PaulSKemp on 11 Jan 2005 00:26:32 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2005 : 00:30:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Indeed, we need more emoticons! The only other forum I'm active on has like 150+ emoticons, so there's always a good one handy.
More of them?!!! I have a hard time figuring out the ones that are used now. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2005 : 01:17:13
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
George,
No worries and no harm done. I tend to be oversensitive to these things.
When I started writing in FR, a veteran told me that I can hold whatever opinion I want regarding other FR authors/designers, but that if I didn't have something nice to say in a public forum, I damn well better say nothing at all. His exact words were: "We keep that stuff in the family." There's no reason you should feel obliged to adhere to that. I offer it only by way of explanation for my post -- you're a Realmslore scholar and have been integral to the Realm's development over the years. Your opinion may carry a certain gravitas among fans. To me, you are therefore part of the family -- one of the patriarchs of the family, in fact. And while I acknowledge that I am but a junior member, I thought that even a Don of the family sometimes needs a bloody horse's head under his bedcovers, just as a reminder.
You know Paul, I've never quite understood the "FR family" in that context until now. Mainly because it is only more recently that places such as Candlekeep have allowed myself and countless others to express our thoughts and views on the Realms. I've never considered my musings to have any persuasive or authoritative character because I've always considered myself a fan who still hangs off every word that Ed, Steven, Eric and the other 'real' FR writers come up with. Much of the work I've done for FR has been behind the scenes, suitably deferential to those 'real' FR writers (although I have on occasions held strong opinions, as we all do) and with the knowledge that my input is a privilege, not a right.
Living in one of the smaller cities in Australia, and not having any FR outlet other than what the internet can provide (and we all know what a precarious medium this web can be ...) has probably led to my growing list of excesses. Something I need to address and work on curbing. Being a famous author, you might find it hard to recognise how us little guys with occasional big voices can get carried away. I get a thrill when I get acknowledged for my FR input and it hasn't diminished in the 6 or so years since I signed that NDA: it's quite addictive in fact. Probably something like seeing your books on sale in stores. However, being where I am, I'm certainly not a patriarch of the FR family - more like a distant uncle who gets visited by the family from time to time and who have to put up with his increasing idiosyncracies!
In that vein, I'll keep in mind your adage re "if you can't say anything nice, ...". Hopefully my future comments and musings will be more constructive. Thanks for the advice and now all you have to do is take a trip Downunder to clean all that equine gunk off my sheets!
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2005 : 05:23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
the building of a canal does absolutely nothing whatsoever to excite me and make me look forward to these books. Sure, it's early days and we have little or no information on the content of the books - and my views may change depending on such information - but in a fantasy, high magic place like the Realms, the premise feels a tad anachronistic to me. But then again, I'm sure I'm in the minority and there is likely a ton of FR fans out there with engineering backgrounds who are salivating at the prospect.
 See, some comments don't need emoticons. That comment was great even if I am one of the fans interested. Althoughsalivating isn't quite accurate. Guess I need to work on that Engineering degree before the publication date? Oh well, I had a feeling I might need a second graduate degree one day. Who knew it would be for an FR novel? Damn you WOTC, just when I thought I was out... |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2005 : 05:32:59
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
No worries and no harm done. I tend to be oversensitive to these things.
If I recall correctly, Mr. Athans got knocked around in another forum pretty hard. I can see why someone who knows him then might be a bit sensitive.
quote:
When I started writing in FR, a veteran told me that I can hold whatever opinion I want regarding other FR authors/designers, but that if I didn't have something nice to say in a public forum, I damn well better say nothing at all. His exact words were: "We keep that stuff in the family."
I have no idea who you are quoting, but whoever it is has a great deal of class.
quote:
Your opinion may carry a certain gravitas among fans. To me, you are therefore part of the family -- one of the patriarchs of the family, in fact.
I believe they are called Consiglieres. If I were you GK, I'd be hinting at a custom title right now. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2005 : 06:30:02
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"Forgotten Realms Consiglieri" - I like it! What do you say Alaundo?
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
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The Hand of Fire
