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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2007 :  20:33:46  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The 3/3.5e versions of the weapons are in the 3/3.5e DMGS, which is what the FRCS tells you to use. It's on page 162 of the 3e DMG, but not sure what page in the 3.5e DMG.

Gunpowder doesn't work in the Realms, so says the 1e and 2e box sets since the physics of the world is different, which is why the world has magical smokepowder.

The 2e Skullport sourcebook has a large page on the smokepowder weapons that exist in the Realms as does the 1e/2e cross over book, FR Adventures but the current sources are in the 3/3.5e DMG's.

In Faerun, smokepowder was given to the followers of Gond during the ToT's but Kara-Tur has used it for decades.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium

Edited by - Kuje on 02 Jun 2007 20:35:15
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
1814 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2007 :  21:17:04  Show Profile  Visit Richard Lee Byers's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I wish I had masterwork balls.
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2007 :  21:20:57  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers

I wish I had masterwork balls.



HAHAHA. I really don't want to comment, but I LOL'd on that comment.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2007 :  21:35:14  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers

I wish I had masterwork balls.



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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2007 :  22:02:52  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
1. What firearms are known and used on Toril, and what is their firing mechanism (i.e. matchlock, wheellock, flintlock, or some Gnomish contraption)? The wheellock mechanism would be known to many spelljammer crews in Waterdeep, Nimbral, Calimport, and Shou Lung (or at least its spaceport), and might be introduced a century sooner than it would if firearms developed as they did in our world.


In the Forgotten Realms Adventures hardcover from second edition, the following smokepowder weapons and items are mentioned:

Rockets (Shou)

The Seige gun (Thayvian)

The Arquebus (Gondsmen)

The Blunderbuss (Gondsmen, derisively known as the Gondgun)

The Bombard (Thayvian)

Caviler (Gondsmen)

Musket (Gondsmen)

Ribald (Gondsmen, also called "Gond's Pipes")

Starwheel Pistol (Spelljammers)


All of the Gondsmen built weapons didn't appear until after the time of troubles. It also notes that five years from the time that Gondsmen introduce these weapons, that "knockoffs" start showing up that have an extra chance to foul or misfire (1-2 on a d20).

Guns made by Gondsmen are marked with the cog symbol of Gond, and I would guess by now, that Gondsmen have "reverse engineered" starwheel pistols and make them "locally" as well.


quote:
2. If this is so, what do the great, high, and learned sages think would be appropriate stats for these weapons if they do exist on Faerun? Every D20 sourcebook gives different information on each of them.



As Kuje pointed out, the DMG has stats for these. Its on page 145 of the 3.5 DMG. It only has pistols and muskets, however, and there is no chance for them to misfire. They are also listed as taking a standard action to reload.

For an alternative, but still WOTC d20 source, d20 Past has stats for almost all of the weapons mentioned on page 20, and includes the chance for the weapon to foul on a 1, 1-3 in poor weather, and taking two full round actions to reload, with a feat that allows for a single full round action to reload (strangely, the weapons in the DMG take only a standard action to reload, making them as easy to reload as a heavy crossbow).



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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2007 :  00:14:09  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

The 3/3.5e versions of the weapons are in the 3/3.5e DMGS, which is what the FRCS tells you to use. It's on page 162 of the 3e DMG, but not sure what page in the 3.5e DMG.

Gunpowder doesn't work in the Realms, so says the 1e and 2e box sets since the physics of the world is different, which is why the world has magical smokepowder.

The 2e Skullport sourcebook has a large page on the smokepowder weapons that exist in the Realms as does the 1e/2e cross over book, FR Adventures but the current sources are in the 3/3.5e DMG's.

In Faerun, smokepowder was given to the followers of Gond during the ToT's but Kara-Tur has used it for decades.



Ah! I don't have Skullport. Yet another "eesential" buy, I think!


I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2007 :  00:40:41  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also remember, at least in the current rules, that the weapons and the ammo can be enchanted. I know, in the past, I've had a few people tell me that that this isn't so according to the new rules but I haven't seen anything that states that enchantments can't be added to masterwork guns/ammo.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium

Edited by - Kuje on 05 Jun 2007 00:42:24
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2007 :  09:42:39  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen

quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

The 3/3.5e versions of the weapons are in the 3/3.5e DMGS, which is what the FRCS tells you to use. It's on page 162 of the 3e DMG, but not sure what page in the 3.5e DMG.

Gunpowder doesn't work in the Realms, so says the 1e and 2e box sets since the physics of the world is different, which is why the world has magical smokepowder.

The 2e Skullport sourcebook has a large page on the smokepowder weapons that exist in the Realms as does the 1e/2e cross over book, FR Adventures but the current sources are in the 3/3.5e DMG's.

In Faerun, smokepowder was given to the followers of Gond during the ToT's but Kara-Tur has used it for decades.



Ah! I don't have Skullport. Yet another "eesential" buy, I think!





Dont think, just find! This is one of the better Realms accessories written in my opinion. As with Drizzts guide to the underdark you can read it a dozen times and still only skim the surface of everything the book contains.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2007 :  01:44:11  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens

quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen

quote:
Originally posted by Kuje



(snip)

The 2e Skullport sourcebook has a large page on the smokepowder weapons that exist in the Realms as does the 1e/2e cross over book, FR Adventures but the current sources are in the 3/3.5e DMG's.

(snip)




Ah! I don't have Skullport. Yet another "eesential" buy, I think!




Dont think, just find! This is one of the better Realms accessories written in my opinion. As with Drizzts guide to the underdark you can read it a dozen times and still only skim the surface of everything the book contains.



I'm looking! I'm looking! I really am!

I still have a lot of questions about smokepowder weapons on Toril. A lot....


(I think that I miswrote earlier, it is not Nimbral which grants a pistol as possible bonus starting equipment, it is the Nelanther Islands which does so. That only makes my further questioning more to the point.)

Although I persist in not owning a copy of Skullport, I did check current edition Dungeon Master's Guide, as kuje pointed out, and see that (unnoticed by me -- d'oh!) Michael Shortt's article, "The Way of the Gun" explicitly credits the DMG for his information on "pistols," "bombs," and "muskets." That, however, leaves most of my original questions unanswered.

The DMG (and Shortt's article) give the damage die for various firearms in both (S) and (M) sizes.

So ... do the Lantanese use small pistols and the Nelanther pirates medium pistols, or are all pistols (and muskets) one size or the other? I can easily see that the gnomes of Lantan would recognize the human realms as their biggest potential market, and would make all of their pistols medium-sized so that (potential customer) humans would be able to try out a pistol which probably fits their hands better than a gnome-sized (S) pistol, and which does more damage than a (S) weapon, too, but at the same price (250 gold pieces).

Who makes the pistols of the Nelanther Isles -- gnomes or humans? If gnomes, do they make them to fit their own hands or the hands of human customers paying that 250 in gold? If humans make them, and they make them in (M) size, my earlier questions may be recalled: how widespread is their use and have others taken to making them, using captured pirate pistols as prototypes?

kuje correctly points out that gunpowder doesn't work on Toril (although I thought that there was an NDA covering its possible development in the near future -- in the 1370s, that is), but all of the firearms in the DMG and Shortt's article are gunpowder weapons; a weapon using smokepowder may cost more money (or less) and may do far more (or far less) damage than its gunpowder-using counterpart. (It was a god who introduced the stuff, after all, except perhaps in Shou Lung, as kuje correctly pointed out, and I don't think that Gond would short-change his worshippers cum protectors.)

I continue to strongly disagree with Shortt's assertion that an arquebus is a "hand cannon." I have always understood a hand cannon to be a very primitive device -- just a pipe lashed to a wooden stock, sealed at one end, and having a hole drilled into it for the match to be manually touched to the main powder supply directly. An arquebus uses a matchlock mechanism (by definition; see George Cameron Stone's A Glossary of Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor...) and has a powder pan on which is placed gunpowder (preferably of a much finer grain than the stuff in the barrel), which is ignited by a match held by the "serpentine," not the bare hand, and whose burning then ignites the powder in the barrel. In brief, an arquebus is a matchlock which has a trigger, a hand cannon has no trigger. So, are there native arquebuses on Toril or not? If so, what do they cost, who makes them, what damage do they do, and what is their range increment?

Nor is a "musket" an arquebus: by definition (according to Stone), a musket was originally a gun which was too heavy to be fired without a gun rest, and which was ranked as the smallest of cannon: "originally it was a smooth bored gun with a four foot barrel and shooting round balls weighing twelve to a pound." Different sized cannon were named after birds, and the "musquet" is no exception: it is "a male sparrow hawk, the smallest of hawks." An arquebus may be used with a gun rest (or balanced against a wall or anything else of sufficient height), but the early musket had to be placed on a rest.

I don't thing I'm going overboard in citing early terminology for the musket, because Gond introduced the Lantanese to smokepowder in 1358 DR, less than twenty years before the current "official" date, and muskets were not produced in RW Europe until more than a century after the first arquebus was made. One of the first recorded arquebuses was used by the Swiss in 1386, but the firs recorded use of the term "musquette" (from the French) was -- per the OED -- in the 16th century, some two centuries later.)

The 2nd edition "arquebus" came in one size only (M), and did identical damage to small, medium, and large foes: 1D10, subject to at least one additional die of damage every time a "10" was rolled for damage; this weapon has not been updated and presented as such in any 3rd edition FR books of which I am aware (and I have almost all of them). The DMG "musket," comes in both (S) and (M), which do, respectively, 1D10 and 1D12 damage with a 150 range increment and a x3 critical multiplier. If this "musket" is what used to be called (and still ought to be called) an "arquebus," I would appreciate it if some game designer or knowledgeable author would say so canonically (please forgive the pun). If they are different weapons, would someone please state that canonically and give us the stats for a Realms arquebus?

Shortt also stated in his article as an optional rule that, subject to DM consent, weapons could be made more effective by being considered "a size category larger, which more than compensates for their long reload times." Okay, so a gnomish (S) pistol may optionally be considered as a (M) gun, but what then are the stats for a (L) pistol or "musket"? They sure as heck won't do 6D6 (the damage for a large-sized "field gun") in my game, and probably not in any other DM's game, either.

Shortt continues with another optional rule: "Another possibility is to increase their threat ranges or critical multipliers, simulating the unpredictable nature of early firearms." That's well and good, particularly since a smokepowder gun may function differently than a gunpowder version of the same weapon, but if that is the case in the Realms, would someone please say so?

But all of the above ignores Chris Pramas's article ("Firearms in Freeport") in the Dragon d20 Special issue, which, when still published by Wizards of the Coast and edited by Eric Mona, stated that "Freeport has been designed for use in any fantasy d20 System campaign. Since it's an island city, it's easy to drop into your home campaign or any published setting." (Bolded text original, italics mine.) If Wizards says that Freeport can be dropped somewhere on Toril, a DM has to face the fact that in Freeport, weapons manufactured by "the gnomish mechanical genius Kolter" deal far more massive damage and have much, much shorter range increments than those listed in the DMG. Those stats for his guns raise all of the questions which I posed at the beginning of this scroll.

I iterate that I would like the Realms novelists and game designers themselves to give us what they regard as the correct (or at least "appropriate") information for the various smokepowder weapons, made in different locations, possibly by different races, and certainly by different craftsmen (or craftsgnomes, who would be far more likely to tinker with design than would a human). In particular, I'd like information on what the current firing mechanism(s) used by guns on Toril is/are.

As for firing mechanisms, the wheel lock is almost certainly known, if only from spacers, if not from gnomish invention or divine revelation, but Jeff Grubb in Concordance of Arcane Space, (one of the Spelljammer boxed set books) gives us the stats for a five pound, 700 gp "wheel lock pistol," with a rate of fire (ROF) of 1/3 (one shot every three rounds), range increments of 30 yards, and doing a mere 1D4 damage against any sized opponent, but subject to adding additional dice of damage each time a "4" is rolled for damage. The Cloakmaster series of novels has Teldin Moore setting down more than once on Toril, and has at least one key supporting character who is from Toril, so knowledge of the wheel lock is known by some people on Toril, but is it widely used, or is the matchlock the preferred method of ignition, or was Gond "generous" enough to teach his gnomish worshippers the secrets of the flintlock, a devastatingly effective firing system (good enough for the Battles of Yorktown and Waterloo!). Let us please note that Jeff Grubb wrote at a time when the 2nd edition matchlock arquebus did 1D10/1D12 damage, so he presented a technologically advanced pistol which did four damage dice less damage than an arquebus, while the current DMG has the whatever-lock pistol doing only one damage die less damage than a "musket" of the same size category. Grubb's non-magical "bombard" did 2D10 against personnel (1D6 against hulls), but Shortt's article gives bombard damage as 10D6 (!), which is fairly realistic in my opinion.

Ed Greenwood (of whom we've all heard!) gave us the "Giff gun" in his book, Lost Ships. Ed didn't give us weight or size on Giff guns, but they did 3D6 anti-personnel damage and 1D4+1 hull damage (when they didn't blow up in the user's hands ... er ... paws ... whatever), and they had a range in Wildspace of 2000 yards, and although we may presume that their range is less in an atmosphere, what is their range if they are fired in Toril's atmosphere?

Dale "Slade" Henson might have resolved all questions on Torilian guns in Realmspace, but he, alas, deals with no gunpowder weapon (that's "gunpowder weapon," mind you) than the magical bombard (+1 to +3). My original questions, however, specifically excluded Thayvian bombards, which are more or less magical devices, and which Ed has dealt with quite recently in answer to another, very specific query of mine.

A Mighty Fortress Campaign Supplement lists a fair selection of firearms, large and small, but their damage dice all seem lower than their 3rd edition counterparts (whatever you want to call them).


SO! Will the authors and designers please supply us with some input on what firearms are actually used on Toril, what they look like, how they work, etc.?



I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
904 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2007 :  19:58:46  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jamallo, unfortunately, I don't know that you're going to get any better answers than you've already gotten. The information on early firearms in D&D varied from edition to edition of the game and among campaign settings and the level of detail that you ask for is generally just not there. Combine that with the fact a lot of players don't use firearms in their D&D games even if they exist in a setting, and there just hasn't been a lot of time put into rationalizing a comprehensive and consistent system.

IIRC, firearms were first introduced to the Realms in 2E's Forgotten Realms Adventures (as noted above), which had a list of which firearms were available, but a lot of Realmsian time has passed since then, so almost anything is possible. Again, in the Realms, firearms use magic smokepowder instead of gunpower as noted, but otherwise work as firearms in the DMG. Smokepowder was priced out in 3E's Magic of Faerun, but firearms should otherwise be priced as they are in the DMG. As with other 3E weapons, you can have masterwork and magic firearms and ammunition. As for creating distinctions between new types of firearms and old, even variations that were statted in earlier editions of the game, your best bet is to adapt the stats used in other d20 supplements like Ptolus or Iron Kingdoms or Freeport or Polyhedron's Spelljammer mini campaign from a few years back or make up your own. But whatever system you use, make sure its consistent. The same goes for the nomenclature of various firearms. There are clearly some inconsistencies between different rule sets and different editions. You'll have to solve them probably on your own however makes the most sense to you. The same goes for which firearms can be found where and used by whom. The information, other than that already sited by you and others, just isn't there.
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
904 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2007 :  20:00:28  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and everything I said is just my best guess and the most logical answer I have. It's not official in any way (nor do I think you'll get an official answer, though you could email the Sage at WotC).
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Faraer
Great Reader

3308 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2007 :  02:39:05  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bottom line: no one writing for the Realms is keen for guns to become prevalent. So they'll "canonically" stay rare and marginal until someone changes their mind.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36593 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2007 :  05:19:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Heh, the cannon shall not become canon.

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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2007 :  03:40:37  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

Jamallo, unfortunately, I don't know that you're going to get any better answers than you've already gotten. The information on early firearms in D&D varied from edition to edition of the game and among campaign settings and the level of detail that you ask for is generally just not there. Combine that with the fact a lot of players don't use firearms in their D&D games even if they exist in a setting, and there just hasn't been a lot of time put into rationalizing a comprehensive and consistent system.

IIRC, firearms were first introduced to the Realms in 2E's Forgotten Realms Adventures (as noted above), which had a list of which firearms were available, but a lot of Realmsian time has passed since then, so almost anything is possible. Again, in the Realms, firearms use magic smokepowder instead of gunpower as noted, but otherwise work as firearms in the DMG. Smokepowder was priced out in 3E's Magic of Faerun, but firearms should otherwise be priced as they are in the DMG. As with other 3E weapons, you can have masterwork and magic firearms and ammunition. As for creating distinctions between new types of firearms and old, even variations that were statted in earlier editions of the game, your best bet is to adapt the stats used in other d20 supplements like Ptolus or Iron Kingdoms or Freeport or Polyhedron's Spelljammer mini campaign from a few years back or make up your own. But whatever system you use, make sure its consistent. The same goes for the nomenclature of various firearms. There are clearly some inconsistencies between different rule sets and different editions. You'll have to solve them probably on your own however makes the most sense to you. The same goes for which firearms can be found where and used by whom. The information, other than that already sited by you and others, just isn't there.



Thank you, Tom. Ironically, I had a question from one of my players, which I think is best suited to you (although others may weigh in, as they like): How difficult is it for a Thayan to lose his or her accent and acquire a Mulhorandi accent? Would skill points need to be devoted to it, or just a lot of practice? It's an issue in my campaign now, because two of the PCs in the Army of the Alliance of the West are Thayans, and they have been advised that it would be safest for them to pass themselves off as Mulhorandi. Since you wrote the article, if not the book, on the subject, what's your opinion?

(I also have the information on firearms from FRA, which I am placing in the next post, in reply to KnightErrant JR.)

I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2007 :  03:48:55  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
1. What firearms are known and used on Toril, and what is their firing mechanism (i.e. matchlock, wheellock, flintlock, or some Gnomish contraption)? The wheellock mechanism would be known to many spelljammer crews in Waterdeep, Nimbral, Calimport, and Shou Lung (or at least its spaceport), and might be introduced a century sooner than it would if firearms developed as they did in our world.


In the Forgotten Realms Adventures hardcover from second edition, the following smokepowder weapons and items are mentioned:

Rockets (Shou)

The Seige gun (Thayvian)

The Arquebus (Gondsmen)

The Blunderbuss (Gondsmen, derisively known as the Gondgun)

The Bombard (Thayvian)

Caviler (Gondsmen)

Musket (Gondsmen)

Ribald (Gondsmen, also called "Gond's Pipes")

Starwheel Pistol (Spelljammers)


All of the Gondsmen built weapons didn't appear until after the time of troubles. It also notes that five years from the time that Gondsmen introduce these weapons, that "knockoffs" start showing up that have an extra chance to foul or misfire (1-2 on a d20).

Guns made by Gondsmen are marked with the cog symbol of Gond, and I would guess by now, that Gondsmen have "reverse engineered" starwheel pistols and make them "locally" as well.


quote:
2. If this is so, what do the great, high, and learned sages think would be appropriate stats for these weapons if they do exist on Faerun? Every D20 sourcebook gives different information on each of them.



As Kuje pointed out, the DMG has stats for these. Its on page 145 of the 3.5 DMG. It only has pistols and muskets, however, and there is no chance for them to misfire. They are also listed as taking a standard action to reload.

For an alternative, but still WOTC d20 source, d20 Past has stats for almost all of the weapons mentioned on page 20, and includes the chance for the weapon to foul on a 1, 1-3 in poor weather, and taking two full round actions to reload, with a feat that allows for a single full round action to reload (strangely, the weapons in the DMG take only a standard action to reload, making them as easy to reload as a heavy crossbow).




Thanks much. Our thoughts crossed in cyberspace, but you posted first, including some information which I missed. Here's what I wrote a few days ago:

Days after posting my last barrage of questions about firearms in the Realms, I was preparing a copy of the 1990 Forgotten Realms Adventures book for sale on eBay, when I discovered -- mirabile dictu! -- the answers to most of my questions. The old answers, anyway, from AD&D 2nd edition.

In brief, the firearms available in the Realms in the aftermath of the ToT were as follows (note that I have corrected "caviler" to "caliver;" it's a carbine-like weapon mid-way between a pistol and an arquebus in size, firing lead bullets weighing 1/20th of a pound to the musket's 1/12th pound):

Arquebus, 500 gp, (M), 1D10, uses multiplier, range 150+ feet
Blunderbuss, 500 gp, (M), 1D4, uses multiplier, range 30+ feet
Bombard, 20,000 gp, (H), 2D20, no multiplier, range 1500+ feet
Caliver, 450 gp, (M), 1D8 uses multiplier, range 120+ feet
Musket, 800 gp, (M), 1D12, uses multiplier, range 180+ feet
Ribald, 1200 gp, (L), 1D4, no multiplier, 12 barrels, range 90+ feet
Starwheel, 1000 gp, (S), 1D4, uses multiplier, range 90+ feet

(By "multiplier" I mean the practice of rolling a damage die and adding the result each and every time one attack's damage die does maximum damage, so that a starwheel pistol might do 4 + 4 + 4 + 3 if one got lucky; these weapons all predate 3rd edition critical hit multiplication of damage.)

The "starwheel pistol" is -- no surprise! -- the wheel lock, and is not (as of 1363 DR) manufactured on Toril; it's an off-world import (which is probably why its price is so high).

The ribald, which Jeff aptly describes as similar to a Nordenfeldt gun, had 12 small barrels, and it was the only firearm in AD&D which did extra damage based on a victim's size, for the very simple reason that the larger the target, the more bullets can hit it. A size Huge target bought all 12 barrels, for 12D4 in damage.

From 1364 onward, all of these weapons were common enough to sell for the list price in "larger stores." From 1359 to 1361 they were rare curiosities and sold for ten times the listed price; from 1362 to 1363, they were still rare, but common enough to be found in "well-stocked weapon shops, but at twice the listed price."

As of 1364 no magic firearms were known (on Toril itself, anyway), but it was expected to be only a matter of time before they were introduced.

So spake Jeff Grubb!

Now my principal questions are: did non-starwheel personal firearms all have matchlocks (as opposed to loose match cords)?

Is the above information "still good" in the 3.$ Realms?

Have the prices of firearms dropped below the "old" list prices (due to mass production of parts and/or smaller profit margins per unit but with a higher demand)?

In the past decade have snaphaunces or full-on flintlocks been introduced?

What cities or countries have military or watch units whose members are all fully equipped with firearms? (The Tudors were all big on guns, even though the English longbow could be more effective -- in trained hands; I can readily imagine the Zhents using massed firearms firing in volleys to wipe out a generation or two or three of Dales longbowmen.)

What individuals are considered the most masterful gunsmiths?

Have any brilliant military innovators arisen yet who are capable of using firearms with expert efficiency, such as Oda Nobunaga, who introduced lines of gunners three deep, one of which would fire while the other two were reloading, thus guaranteeing a continuous hail of bullets; or Maurice of Nassau, who formalized the musket drill and had it printed in an illustrated manual so that reloading time was reduced and soldiers would fire in volleys instead of at will; or like Gustavus Adolphus, who lightened his artillery to make them easier to haul around Europe and kill Germans and Austrians (and Poles, and Spaniards, and Italians, and...)? Jeff Grubb gave us the scoop up to 1364 (and AD&D 2nd edition), but what's the score in the 1370s (and under the current rules)?

I hope that the Great Sages will feel rather more comfortable wighing in on these questions. I hope.


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Kajehase
Great Reader

Sweden
2104 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2007 :  16:14:52  Show Profile Send Kajehase a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen

quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

Jamallo, unfortunately, I don't know that you're going to get any better answers than you've already gotten. The information on early firearms in D&D varied from edition to edition of the game and among campaign settings and the level of detail that you ask for is generally just not there. Combine that with the fact a lot of players don't use firearms in their D&D games even if they exist in a setting, and there just hasn't been a lot of time put into rationalizing a comprehensive and consistent system.

IIRC, firearms were first introduced to the Realms in 2E's Forgotten Realms Adventures (as noted above), which had a list of which firearms were available, but a lot of Realmsian time has passed since then, so almost anything is possible. Again, in the Realms, firearms use magic smokepowder instead of gunpower as noted, but otherwise work as firearms in the DMG. Smokepowder was priced out in 3E's Magic of Faerun, but firearms should otherwise be priced as they are in the DMG. As with other 3E weapons, you can have masterwork and magic firearms and ammunition. As for creating distinctions between new types of firearms and old, even variations that were statted in earlier editions of the game, your best bet is to adapt the stats used in other d20 supplements like Ptolus or Iron Kingdoms or Freeport or Polyhedron's Spelljammer mini campaign from a few years back or make up your own. But whatever system you use, make sure its consistent. The same goes for the nomenclature of various firearms. There are clearly some inconsistencies between different rule sets and different editions. You'll have to solve them probably on your own however makes the most sense to you. The same goes for which firearms can be found where and used by whom. The information, other than that already sited by you and others, just isn't there.



Thank you, Tom. Ironically, I had a question from one of my players, which I think is best suited to you (although others may weigh in, as they like): How difficult is it for a Thayan to lose his or her accent and acquire a Mulhorandi accent? Would skill points need to be devoted to it, or just a lot of practice? It's an issue in my campaign now, because two of the PCs in the Army of the Alliance of the West are Thayans, and they have been advised that it would be safest for them to pass themselves off as Mulhorandi. Since you wrote the article, if not the book, on the subject, what's your opinion?

(I also have the information on firearms from FRA, which I am placing in the next post, in reply to KnightErrant JR.)



I'd simply make this a Perform or Bluff check (if you're playing 3.x that is).

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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
904 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2007 :  19:13:36  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with Kajehase on the accent issue. I'd let players use either a Perform (acting) or Bluff check (player's choice) to hide their accent and/or mimic another. It's like acting or lying. Since they have similar ancestry and language, you might give them a +2 circumstance bonus (and vice versa for Mulhorandi spies in Thay). As for the DC, I don't know; accents seem to be harder than most things to change convincingly, so at least 15. As for permanently changing your accent, anyone can do it with time. Maybe they would need to make the initial check and then a series of checks one a month for a few months to have a permanent change. Look at Madonna's accent changes from pure New York to her often fake high-brow English.

Regarding 2E firearm information, I would take it as a guide and convert it to better match up with the 3.5E DMG, prices, damage, range, etc. I would not use any of the 2E information at face value. The rest is pretty much up to you. We do know that guns appear to have spread up the west coast of Faerun from Lantan to at least Waterdeep, where I believe they may remain illegal (can't remember the old short story in one of the anthologies on guns too well). We also know that they exist in Kara-Tur (see FR12 The Horde and the novel trilogy as well), presumably the Thayans have developed more than cannons, and I gave Nadul DaRoni guns in the old WotC web column and he lives in Cormyr, but ultimately, they will remain relatively rare so long as they require an Exotic Weapon Proficiency, are expensive, are slow to reload, and other forms of magic can form alternatives.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2007 :  20:32:26  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

I agree with Kajehase on the accent issue. I'd let players use either a Perform (acting) or Bluff check (player's choice) to hide their accent and/or mimic another. It's like acting or lying. Since they have similar ancestry and language, you might give them a +2 circumstance bonus (and vice versa for Mulhorandi spies in Thay). As for the DC, I don't know; accents seem to be harder than most things to change convincingly, so at least 15. As for permanently changing your accent, anyone can do it with time. Maybe they would need to make the initial check and then a series of checks one a month for a few months to have a permanent change. Look at Madonna's accent changes from pure New York to her often fake high-brow English.

Regarding 2E firearm information, I would take it as a guide and convert it to better match up with the 3.5E DMG, prices, damage, range, etc. I would not use any of the 2E information at face value. The rest is pretty much up to you. We do know that guns appear to have spread up the west coast of Faerun from Lantan to at least Waterdeep, where I believe they may remain illegal (can't remember the old short story in one of the anthologies on guns too well). We also know that they exist in Kara-Tur (see FR12 The Horde and the novel trilogy as well), presumably the Thayans have developed more than cannons, and I gave Nadul DaRoni guns in the old WotC web column and he lives in Cormyr, but ultimately, they will remain relatively rare so long as they require an Exotic Weapon Proficiency, are expensive, are slow to reload, and other forms of magic can form alternatives.



Kajehase: thank you.

Tom: thank you. (In the story I think it was smokepowder itself which was vexing Blackstaff, which is irocin, since it is a magical substance. I can't recall the name, but I think it was in Realms of the Arcane.)

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Kajehase
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Sweden
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Posted - 13 Jun 2007 :  16:37:38  Show Profile Send Kajehase a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeing as a pistol (with accessories) is part of one of the equipment kits in the Waterdeep region in the FRCS, I'd guess that if it's still banned, that ban has been about as useful as the papal one on crossbows was.

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Kajehase
Great Reader

Sweden
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Posted - 13 Jun 2007 :  16:38:28  Show Profile Send Kajehase a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And, a designer said I was right on a rules-question. Cool

There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
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Zanan
Senior Scribe

Germany
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Posted - 06 Jul 2007 :  15:13:00  Show Profile  Visit Zanan's Homepage Send Zanan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just doing a revision on Jaleigh Johnson's Howling Delve and have to say that book is simply a treat. Amnian life (remember Baldur's Gate II, Cowled Wizards, Shadow Thieves et al?) at its best. This authoress surely deserves her own thread!

More later ... up till then: Welcome to the Realms Jaleigh!

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Zanan
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Germany
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Posted - 02 Aug 2007 :  23:36:17  Show Profile  Visit Zanan's Homepage Send Zanan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
While writing the revision on the second novel of the Sembia series I stumbled over the question regarding the "origin" of the main protagonists. Maybe the authors can assist me here and tell me whose brainchild the Uskevren family and its members are?

Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!

G a wyrd swa hio scel!

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Edited by - Zanan on 02 Aug 2007 23:37:10
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Kuje
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USA
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Posted - 03 Aug 2007 :  06:53:59  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan

While writing the revision on the second novel of the Sembia series I stumbled over the question regarding the "origin" of the main protagonists. Maybe the authors can assist me here and tell me whose brainchild the Uskevren family and its members are?



I believe it is Ed's since they showed up way back in FR Adventures.

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The Sage
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Posted - 03 Aug 2007 :  08:18:09  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From THO, back in March '04:-

"Most of the lead characters in novels not by him [Ed] were created by others, though he did name and create a surprising number of them, from almost all of the Uskevrens in the Sembia series..."

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Zanan
Senior Scribe

Germany
942 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2007 :  13:52:45  Show Profile  Visit Zanan's Homepage Send Zanan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cheers for that, will double check the FR Adventures.

Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!

G a wyrd swa hio scel!

In memory of Alura Durshavin.

Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faern, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more.
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
1814 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2007 :  04:20:16  Show Profile  Visit Richard Lee Byers's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Who created Shamur Uskevren depends on your point of view, I guess. I was given her name and a couple facts about her and built what I hope is a fully developed character from there.
I believe it's the same with Erevis Cale and Paul Kemp, only more so. I don't think Paul was given anything other than Erevis's name and his position in the Uskevren household. So I would definitely be inclined to give Paul credit for creating the character.
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Zanan
Senior Scribe

Germany
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Posted - 07 Aug 2007 :  10:03:11  Show Profile  Visit Zanan's Homepage Send Zanan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers

Who created Shamur Uskevren depends on your point of view, I guess. I was given her name and a couple facts about her and built what I hope is a fully developed character from there.
I believe it's the same with Erevis Cale and Paul Kemp, only more so. I don't think Paul was given anything other than Erevis's name and his position in the Uskevren household. So I would definitely be inclined to give Paul credit for creating the character.



Having checked on Shamur in "FR A", it looks as if only the names of her and Thamalon are in there, with little additional information. Erevis Cale is, AFAIK, "purely Kemp", so to speak.
What would interest me is what age Shamur and Thamalon have during the events described in Shattered Mask? I'd guess that Shamur (give her five years to climb to Thief 11 (as she was listed), i.e. 15 to 20) must be around 50 (20 plus 30 years of marriage), not counting her stasis years?

Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!

G a wyrd swa hio scel!

In memory of Alura Durshavin.

Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faern, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more.
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
1814 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2007 :  14:55:10  Show Profile  Visit Richard Lee Byers's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I don't recall nailing down Shamur's age down exactly, but you're in the right ball park. 45-50. She could conceivably be as young as 45 if none of three children is older than his or her early 20s, and I believe that's correct.
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Zanan
Senior Scribe

Germany
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Posted - 07 Aug 2007 :  17:48:44  Show Profile  Visit Zanan's Homepage Send Zanan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for that "confirmation"!

Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!

G a wyrd swa hio scel!

In memory of Alura Durshavin.

Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faern, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more.
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe

USA
277 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2007 :  19:43:47  Show Profile  Visit Ozzalum's Homepage Send Ozzalum a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So this is my first post on this topic though I have read all 11 pages a few times now. I just finished the first, reasonably polished, draft of a book set in the Realms. It was a fun exercise and my first attempt at a full length novel. I learned a lot from writing it and tried to apply what lessons I could from the advice offered here. I just wanted to say thanks for the help, even though you didn't know I was reading.

Given that WotC is not interested in unsolicited works for FR I was wondering if anyone here had any advice on submitting to their other fiction lines. I have a layout for a non Realms specific novel that I think could be made for the Mirrorstone young adult series. Does anyone here have any advice for writing books aimed at a teen audience?
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