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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Sep 2005 : 12:03:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Gareth Yaztromo
Ed or the Great Hooded One, I was wondering were the Knights of Myth Drannor created by the roleplayers or did you (Ed) create them for the roleplayers. AND if the roleplayers did create them how was the issue of copyright (in regards to the roleplayers creating the characters' names etc and you using them in your novels) handled? *LOL* Sorry for the long question...
Hooded one answered part of this question not long ago
I believe she said they sold the characters to TSR for 1 USD each, one of the players also wanted a mini of his character if TSR ever made one (Who knows he might get one out of the DDM line) |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2005 : 20:24:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
But elven orgies are so Boring. Just a lot of palm and ear licking is enough for them to consider it an orgy....
Gold star, Steven! That's my favorite bit of Elminster in MD.
Did Ed just make that up, or did it come from somewhere, I wonder?
quote:
Now halflings--THEY know how to party, and you know what they say about big feet....  I've had Ed tell me of noble soirees the Company interrupted in Waterdeep that involved halfling chandelier swinging and punch-bowl diving, so one doubts that their more private moments are held to higher decorum. 
I've always wondered about TIEFLING parties (and I use the word "parties" loosely). I mean, the fiend-touched don't tend to congregate that much, but raging demonic/devil blood, possibly from things like succubi and erinyes -- actually, I would guess those are more likely than the alternatives -- and the various lower plane lords who enjoy themselves (and others) a little too much. . . .
Well. 'Twould be interesting.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2005 : 23:10:24
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Ed,
I have a serious question regarding one of your rather nefarious creations, Larloch. What is your vision regarding him? Is he this ultra-being that simply cannot be destroyed no matter what? Will Mystra step in a lay a godlike smack-down on any do-gooders that my want to do him harm? Can you even get to him? For instance if a group of powerful do-gooders somehow find a way to get at him without having to slay every single undead that he has in his service, what would you say to Larloch getting his undead hind-end whooped? More importantly, how much lee-way does a DM have regarding some of these more powerful denizens of Faerun? Please be as detailed as you have time for.
Thanks! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2005 : 23:27:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
Ed,
I have a serious question regarding one of your rather nefarious creations, Larloch. What is your vision regarding him? Is he this ultra-being that simply cannot be destroyed no matter what? Will Mystra step in a lay a godlike smack-down on any do-gooders that my want to do him harm? Can you even get to him? For instance if a group of powerful do-gooders somehow find a way to get at him without having to slay every single undead that he has in his service, what would you say to Larloch getting his undead hind-end whooped? More importantly, how much lee-way does a DM have regarding some of these more powerful denizens of Faerun? Please be as detailed as you have time for.
Thanks!
Ed's discussed Larloch in the past in these threads. Basically he said, "Leave Larloch alone because he can shatter Faerun and PC's will be dead after Larloch's done playing with them. Do remember that PC's have to sleep and undead do not."
See the reply from November 10th, 2004. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 06 Sep 2005 23:32:53 |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2005 : 23:58:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
Ed,
I have a serious question regarding one of your rather nefarious creations, Larloch. What is your vision regarding him? Is he this ultra-being that simply cannot be destroyed no matter what? Will Mystra step in a lay a godlike smack-down on any do-gooders that my want to do him harm? Can you even get to him? For instance if a group of powerful do-gooders somehow find a way to get at him without having to slay every single undead that he has in his service, what would you say to Larloch getting his undead hind-end whooped? More importantly, how much lee-way does a DM have regarding some of these more powerful denizens of Faerun? Please be as detailed as you have time for.
Thanks!
Ed's discussed Larloch in the past in these threads. Basically he said, "Leave Larloch alone because he can shatter Faerun and PC's will be dead after Larloch's done playing with them. Do remember that PC's have to sleep and undead do not."
See the reply from November 10th, 2004.
NM that clears things up. Thanks. I have another part to that question but I'll come back with it later... |
Edited by - Mystery_Man on 07 Sep 2005 00:03:48 |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2005 : 00:21:59
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Hi Ed,
More Larloch questions. I'm wanting your thoughts regarding who his rivals are that might still be alive, or undead. To what expense would he spare to get rid of them and/or get them under his control? What could a high level character do for him to sit up and take notice?
And Farear wants to know if he's gay. You don't have to answer that though.
Thanks!! |
Edited by - Mystery_Man on 07 Sep 2005 00:29:15 |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2005 : 00:28:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I had in mind whimsical.
Like will he do show tunes? |
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RevJest
Learned Scribe
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2005 : 02:47:25
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
However, let me try. I did a podcast with Calye Calhoun and Mike Stackpole.
Any idea where this podcast can be found? I put those names in to Google and couldn't find it.
- RJ
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"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."
- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 04:18:44
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Hello again, fellow scribes of Candlekeep. Herewith, Ed’s reply to Pipers Youth:
Hi, Jason. You’re welcome, and thanks for the nice words about my true goodness (is THAT what it is? I just thought this mirror made me look weird . . .).
Waterdhavian justice is a matter of meticulous recordkeeping, with “backup” written records of every sentence (and pardon, and retrial, and magister’s comments) kept at the Palace, in vault-caverns inside Mount Waterdeep, at a secret location outside Waterdeep, and at the Heralds’ Holdfast (where they provide something of a social record to the Heralds). So yes, all identities are uncovered (by mind-exploring magic if need be) and recorded.
As for the little fun piece for SILVERFALL, I simply sat down and did the sort of humour piece that I love to write, but which so seldom “fits” any of my Realms writing opportunities these days. It wasn’t a dream, but I did make it up as I went along. I didn’t want to do a boring character profile, or try to work up stats for anyone, and if I settle on one of the Seven, I inevitably slight the other six - - so I decided to do something that would be a fun read for anyone visiting the website and show everyone something of the banter and interaction between the Seven (which they’ll get much more of in SILVERFALL, making the piece a “fair” companion to the book). In other words, something useful to roleplaying but also just good fun for non-gamers.
I’d love to do it again, but I have a castle-full of contracted paying gigs to do and hand in first (before they get much more overdue!).
So saith Ed. Who often leaves me chortling with the stuff he writes to me, that the wider world never sees. No, I probably shouldn’t share. Let’s just say that Ed’s worked hard over the years making it almost impossible for other individuals to make me blush. HE still can, though.
Oh, and a postscript from Ed, re. halfling orgies: to The Sage, it’s not the exotic foods so much as it’s how far they can SLIDE in exotic foods.
Also a postscript from Ed to Mkhaiwati: yes, Rhauligan is a Harper but not a Moonstar. His allegiance to Cormyr precludes joining the Moonstars.
And yet another postscript, this one to Gareth Yaztromo from me: Ed created all of the Knights, with names, stats, and backgrounds. We took them over from there, “bringing them alive” if you will, from the character traits and sayings Ed had outlined (“growing” their aims in life from the starter ones Ed provided, for example). When TSR wanted the Realms, we all had to sign release forms, or our characters would just “vanish” from the published Realms. We all did sign those forms, of course.
Another postscript from Ed to Erik Scott de Bie: yes, I made those elven erogenous zones up (plus the backs of the knees, and the throat), tips of the ears being THE most sensitive (when one is in the mood: having part of an ear sliced or bitten away wouldn’t send an elf into orgasmic glee).
Oh, yes, and Ed promises to get to a Larloch reply soon; seems this is also blowing up on the Realms list. Let this much be said right now: Ed’s REALMS OF THE ELVES tale will include some very brief lore enlightenment re. Larloch.
love,
THO
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 05:10:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Oh, and a postscript from Ed, re. halfling orgies: to The Sage, it’s not the exotic foods so much as it’s how far they can SLIDE in exotic foods.
How far...!  I'll have to remember that the next time I want to feature a halfling orgy in my campaigns. I might offer it up as an "attraction" and charge one gold to watch and two for who ever wants to participate .
Oh, and on another matter... I just received DRAGON #334 -- with the article on Crimmor. I'd just like to let Ed know how pleased I was to see such a wonderful take on the City of Caravans. It felt like I was back reading Realmslore in 2e. Great stuff Ed  . Keep them coming!
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 15:57:30
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Oh, yes, and Ed promises to get to a Larloch reply soon;
Sweet! Can't wait.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
...seems this is also blowing up on the Realms list.
love,
THO
It certainly does. Doesn't it? |
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David Lázaro
Acolyte
Spain
37 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2005 : 02:22:33
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Well met Ed and THO,
I've got a pair of questions about the Silver Marches. I've noticed that as the cities are independent of each other and only recently have formed a league that nobility and titles maybe are different there. Have the Silver Marches got the usual share of counts, barons and other nobles or are matters handled in a different way?
Looking through the Lay of the Land section of the sourcebook I've only noticed dwarf and orc kings. Of the human leaders, the only conventional titles are lord, lady and sheriff. There are loads of more colourful titles like elder, firs speaker or holdmaster.
I'll do with a yes (there are counts and barons and other scruffy figures around) or no (those don't abound) answer. But if you wish to elaborate a little bit about how and why the system is different a little bit when you catch the time, I'm sure it would click more easily in my thick skull.
This question came when I wanted to insert a plot about a feud between two noble houses in my campaign only to find that maybe a baron wouldn't fit at all. This raised the second question: would it make sense to resolve a feud between High Hold's Holdmaster's wife and another noble family using judicial champions in Silverymoon? Or is it too brutish for the Jewel of the North? This is my second one about the laws of Silverymoon in two year's time, and hopefully a truly yes or no question. 
And, as always, thanks a lot beforehand. |
Edited by - David Lázaro on 13 Sep 2005 02:23:13 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2005 : 05:21:40
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Hello, all. As promised, Ed attempts a reply about Larloch to Elf_Friend and the various posters who’ve been sparring on the Realms-list about this same character:
Ah, yes, Larloch. You’ll get to see him (briefly) in my story in REALMS OF THE ELVES, and that appearance will show that as Faraer asked, he can be whimsical, and he knows both boredom and a personal code of honour.
It was never my intention to use Larloch to humble PCs (brute force doesn’t humble anyone - - only the ability to awe players does), but - - as with the gods - - he can of course be used that way.
It was my intention, as I was turning the Realms from a purely fictional setting to a 1978-version AD&D game setting, to make it as realistic as possible. One of the necessities in doing that, and in giving PCs challenges, is to have entities around (gods, demigods and divine servants, heads of churches, temporal rulers, established high-level adventurers, and so on) who are stronger than the PCs. This not only gives them future foes and “standards” to measure themselves against and aspire to surpassing, it makes the world seem ongoing rather than newly-created around the PCs as an artificial obstacle course.
Larloch is one of those VERY powerful NPCs. An undead who’s been chasing and accumulating power for so long that he’s beyond possibly being challenged by most (for example) human kings or even archmages. An entity who’s conquered and ruled kingdoms, both openly and through dupes, so often and for so long that he’s quite bored with doing so, and has moved on to manipulating and steering events for his own entertainment (somewhat in the same way that Elminster manipulates and steers, though for different ends). A being so powerful in magic must inevitably “come to an agreement” with at least Mystra and Azuth, and so his doings and ultimate fate are in some manner bound up with theirs: to destroy Mystra may be to doom or destroy Larloch.
As a storytelling and roleplaying DM, I’ve always been rather puzzled by players who see EVERYthing powerful as a target they MUST destroy (hence the constant demand for avatar statistics, and the constant cries of, “I MUST kill Elminster! I’ve gotta smash Larloch!” or gloating boasts of, “I did it! I tore Elminster apart in my campaign!”
Fine, if that turns your crank. But if that’s ALL that turns your crank, what are you going to do for kicks tomorrow?
You’ve just killed Elminster, and Larloch the day before, and you tore apart Szass Tam and Manshoon before that, and laid waste to Shade and Thay and personally ate the last Phaerimm the tenday previous . . . now what? Is that the only way you can enjoy D&D?
My players are living proof of how much satisfaction one can get by sparring with foes for (literally) years, and ending up in grudging mutual respect (with the PCs inwardly gleeful because they’ve manipulated the foe into doing something they wanted him to do without him realizing it . . . and so have demonstrated for themselves that they’ve moved beyond “my blade swung faster, and I drew more blood and so beat you” adventuring, into being truly worthy of significance in Faerûn, because they have now managed to accomplish things WITHOUT brute force.
To quote from my November 2004 reply on this same topic:
In the same way as too many PC dragonslayings depend upon the dragon being played as a dumb brute, it’s highly unlikely that any PC party will have the sheer power to take down Larloch - - and in any war of attrition against his many, many liches and modified powerful undead minions (forty blazing bones over here, a demi-lich over there, various hulking gigantic undead concoted of many battle dead yonder,deceptions galore ("That wasn't Larloch, that was your KING enspelled to look like Larloch! NOW you're in trouble!"), traps that release disease, poisoned this, poisoned that [like, ahem, the PCs’ drinking water] etc. etc.), a party of PCs would have to be stupid indeed not to figure out that destroying Larloch just isn’t worth the effort.
Like most gods in most situations, Larloch doesn’t NEED to stand and fight when it’s not to his advantage. Like gods, he doesn’t need to sleep, and most PCs do. So he’ll just have his minions harry them until they're stumbling-exhausted, and then throw MORE minions at them. Larloch isn’t insane or stupid enough to need to show up in person to gloat; subtly controlling things from afar is what he DOES, and enjoys. So PCs can expect to find themselves attacked by civil authorities in whatever realm they’re in, and then brigands, and then a few guilds, never being allowed to sleep without yet another undead attack - - and even zombies and skeletons can wear you down when they come in waves, dozens daily, for day after night after month.
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar.
Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?”
And as my lovely Lady Hooded added at that time:
I take the view that if a DM tells you that a city your PCs are visiting is surrounded by a ring of hills, it requires a lot of PC insanity to try to destroy the hills “just because they’re there.” Consider Larloch a hill, part of the furniture of the Realms Ed has presented to you, not a target. Sounds like the very worst sort of power-gaming to me, and although we all need an outlet to just SMASH something once in a while, I’d hesitate to call this approach “roleplaying.”
However, to deal specifically with some of the queries raised about Larloch here and on the Realms-list (and if a Candlekeep scribe would be kind enough to repost this entire reply over there, I’d be grateful): I have NEVER postulated Larloch as a being who “cannot be destroyed.” I have suggested that PC attempts to down him reveal stooge-lich after stooge-lich (so that a PC who wants to talk to Larloch and manages to pique his curiosity enough to get an audience could indeed chat, and if they entertained Larloch enough could gain courteous, useful answers from him - - though to a good DM this would be a great chance to roleplay a “difficult” conversation that leaves the PCs involved quaking in their boots, throughout - - but a PC who thought they could dupe Larloch into a party ambush by trying to talk with him would discover that they’d destroyed not the real Larloch, but merely one of his many, many servitor liches, whom he was speaking through).
Of course any DM can do anything he or she wants in their own Realms campaign. If taking out Larloch entertains your players and they attempt it, fine. I’ve created an undead that should (like the old Rod of Seven Parts) give them several stages of victories and hard fights before they truly emerge victorious.
What I HAVE done from the beginning is strongly suggest that any DM trying to be “true to the Realms” show PCs the consequences of everything they do. If you try to take out Larloch, this is what else will happen: here’s whom (and what) he keeps in check, or how many liches have now been freed to race all over Faerûn trying to do what they for so long have been prevented from doing . . . and so on. “The interconnectedness of all things” holds sway in the Realms as it does in our real world. If you want to take out Larloch, do you really understand what you’re setting in motion? Are all the unfolding consequences what you really want to have happen?
Any DM is free to alter the Realms as they see fit before players unleash their characters into it, and is also free to let the players topple as many powerful Realms NPCs as they want to. The farther you get from the published Realms, the more ongoing adaptation work a DM is letting himself in for, but doing so isn’t going to upset me. If someone gloatingly tells me at a convention that their character killed Elminster and ate him or bedded all of the Seven Sisters at once and then killed them it’s not going to upset me. (Thought it is, as several gamers have discovered, going to make me puzzled enough to ask them WHY they did such things.)
As Faraer correctly pointed out here (back in November 2004): “The Realms has always worked on the principle that NPCs can do whatever the DM needs them to do, not what the books say, this being a storytelling game rather than a referencing game.” So DMs should feel free to change NPCs to their hearts’ content.
As for Elf_Friend’s question about Larloch’s rivals, this just makes me sigh. The problem with gamers wanting to take down powerful NPCs (and published Realms sourcebooks providing ultra-detailed stats for said NPCs) is that too often the Hammer Problem arises (the old saying: “To a man with a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.”). We all rush past trying to understand the aims, motives, and essential character of an NPC to get to the crunch details of how we can best him in combat.
Let’s look at Elf_Friend’s multipart question in detail (and please note, Elf_Friend, that these are perfectly legitimate queries that don’t upset me in the slightest; glad you asked):
“I’m wanting your thoughts regarding who his rivals are that might still be alive, or undead.”
Answer: I’m not sure Larloch has any direct rivals. For centuries he’s worked at “fading away behind the scenes,” so only legend tells us he’s still around, or what he might be up to. Is he trying to attain godhood? Immortality? Freedom from the machinations of gods? Some mysterious magical goal or goals?
A DM must decide such things in order to conclude whether or not Larloch has any rivals. If you mean: beings of roughly the same power, who COULD be worthy opponents if they came into conflict with Larloch, then all sorts of possibilities arise, from Hesperdan and Iyraclea to Shaaan and dozens more not yet given prominence in the published Realms, to say nothing of the more obvious Khelben, The Simbul, and so on. The DM had better decide what all of them want, and are striving for, too.
Back to Elf_Friend: “To what expense would he spare to get rid of them [the rivals] and/or get them under his control?”
Again, this presupposes that Larloch is a sort of gunslinger with spells, ready to blast or control any adversary that challenges him. He isn’t. Neither are Szass Tam, Manshoon, or Elminster. Proof? Well, if any of them were, most of Faerûn would be hill after plateau after mountain range of blackened, blasted, smouldering ash, not bustling, vigorous kingdoms.
Larloch delights in gaining new magic, developing or creating new magic, and in manipulating mortals (on whims, for his own entertainment and occasionally to reassure himself that he CAN still manipulate them with such skill) without them noticing, without any onlooker seeing his hand at work, and so on. So like Elminster, he doesn’t want to “get them under his control,” but he DOES want to be able to manipulate them at will, into doing the things he wants, without all the bother of ruling them or showing up to give them orders and threaten or bribe or cajole them: that’s the sort of crass stuff he did centuries ago, and has outgrown. Why get rid of a potential rival when the rival’s very power makes him useful to you? As a weapon or tool you can use to shape someone else? Or have that someone else destroy for you, while you sit and watch the fun (a la the Addams Family, and their model trains sent into headlong trainwrecks) you’ve brought about by your own deft manipulations? (“So she hates him, and he hates her? Let’s see if I can have them bedding each other within a tenday, and married before month-end, in a union that will last for decades!”)
Back to Elf_Friend again: “What could a high level character do for him to sit up and take notice?”
Ahem: any adventurer who’s reached “high level” has ALREADY come to Larloch’s notice, and is being watched (from time to time) by Larloch’s spies (most of whom, if they’re not undead, are unwitting spies). Any expressed desire to contact Larloch, best or destroy Larloch, or work with Larloch will cause him to notice. Please note, from all I’ve said above: “notice” does NOT mean send legions of undead to destroy the ‘impudent’ PC, or show up personally in a rage to destroy said PC and thereby step into the players’ elaborately-arranged trap. It means Larloch watches the PC more closely, and tries to manipulate them in small, subtle ways to see what happens.
And THAT preceding sentence of mine should give a good DM gleeful fun to fill years of rich Realms-campaign roleplaying.
So saith Ed. Who wants to reiterate that none of this online discussion upsets him, but does want some things set straight before readers entirely get the wrong ideas about Ed’s own intentions and views.
Always remember, folks, that Ed created the Realms first and foremost for himself, before there even was a D&D game.
As he told Gary Gygax once: “Well, it seemed a lot more fun than relabelling the squares around the board on a MONOPOLY game, and even more fun than drawing a fantasy map for DIPLOMACY that had more fords and inland seas and fiddly bits.”
So there you have it (she said, bracing herself for the flood of responses). Guess this torpedoes my “Larloch In Love” novel proposal . . .
love to all,
THO
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2005 : 05:57:07
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Interesting
I got the impression from Ed that Larloch is suffering from "Jergal" syndrome ie nothings a challenge anymore.
Eds response also seems to suggest that Larlochs main defence (outside of his spells and hordes of Undead) is to not "offend" anybody
Off the top of my head I can think of a few people or groups who might want him gone
Church of Kelemvor: Larloch is probably the oldest undead that has cheated death (incidently how come Larloch never turned into a Demi Lich he has to be old enough by now)
Warlock Keep contains alot varieitable army of Undead and while Lichs dont need to eat Vampires and Ghouls, Wights etc do how is Larloch feeding them all? If his undead army is preying on the Settlements around Warlock keep for food then its likely to make the locals think that Ravensloft might be a better place to live then settlements around the Troll hills! |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2005 : 06:45:14
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I'd postulate that Larloch has many if not most of his undead minions in some sort of stasis to be used when needed. In other words, Warlock's Crypt might have Larloch and a dozen monster skeletons moving around to do the heavy lifting in a 'normal day. Of course, when the Larloch Slayers adventuring band turns up on his doorstep that's when a whole heap of tons of scads of lots of undead 'wake up' and move in - think of the scene in the film "Aliens" when they all started to wake up and clean some Colonial Marine clock.
Shaaan and Hesperdan, now that is a coincidence ...
BTW, I just finished the "Best of Eddie" collection. Why is it that the 'Maimed Wizard' story made me think that Elminster has been masquerading as Hesperdan for a long time? Or may even be Hesperdan? That does make things interesting - the former postulation more than the latter. Wheels within wheels, Mr Greenwood. Thanks again - for about the millionth time.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Brom Greenstar
Acolyte
Argentina
25 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2005 : 13:01:21
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| As always Mr Greenwood your words have been inspiring, so my players better prepare for layers of intrigue! |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2005 : 21:38:30
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Many, many thanks to Ed for taking the time to post such a lengthy and thorough answer to my question(s). This helps tremendously, and I dare say doesn't deviate too much from what I had planned but now I am definitely pointed in the right direction.
And yes, it was I who lit the fire on the Realms list. Not so much that I was defending a position of defeating Larloch (as that was never my intention in the first place) but the position that if someone wanted to, let them. But then I should know better than to get into a subjective battle of "how to run the Realms the right way", never again!
Questions answered. Campaign enriched. More Larloch lore to chew on.
So, again thanks much!
I'll be glad to cut and paste Ed's reply and send it off to my listserv thread if no one else does.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2005 : 03:26:20
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Hello, all. Ed wants everyone to know that he’s struggling not to fall TOO far behind on his replies - - wherefore some recent queries, that can be swiftly and easily answered because of the directions of his own ongoing Realms-work, are being quickly answered, and others are taking much longer.
Which is why he’s herewith tackling this question by Sanishiver (J. Grenemyer), which came with thanks that Ed begins his reply by responding to: “On average, is the typical reaction of the City Watch of Waterdeep consistent throughout the various Wards of the City whenever young noblemen engage in ‘harmless’ destruction while play-battling on someone else’s property and are confronted by the Watch, such that said nobles can offer up the promise of compensation with the expectation that they’ll not be arrested, be given back their weapons and be allowed to go on their merry way?”
Ed speaks:
You’re very welcome. Elaine and I had great fun breathing life into the Gemcloaks, and as you point out, painting divers details of Waterdeep and Waterdhavian life into the prose throughout the novel, to give ‘borrowing’ DMs some rich nuggets.
The Watch (see also THE NIGHT TYMORA SNEEZED, my 2004 Spin A Yarn tale posted on the Wizards website, and my tale in REALMS OF THE DRAGONS) have a primary duty to keep the peace. Which means this: tolerate individual fights unless there’s a strong possibility of large brawls or general riots or death occurring, authority being defied, or a panic or fire starting (which is why they move so swiftly and in such numbers when tavern brawls erupt), but VERY quickly and firmly confine violence and lawlessness, and remove belligerents (both hotheads and drunks) to the dungeons, to sleep the night away and be released upon payment of a fine [this also allows the Watch and the Guard to mind-probe or interrogate suspicious individuals, in the privacy of the lockup]. The Watch is primarily a ‘swing fists to keep order’ force, not fighting soldiery (they call in the Guard for that), but the safety of the city is paramount, and they can be quite brutal with visiting outlanders who behave dangerously.
The real answer to your question is: it depends on who’s involved. In a rough ‘worst to best treatment’ that the Watch renders, folk go from visiting laborers (and beggars, and folk seeking work) at the bottom, through visiting sailors, visiting peddlers and poor pilgrims, visiting ‘small merchants,’ Waterdhavian beggars, children, unemployed, and ‘day-laborers,’ visiting wealthy and successful merchants, guilded Waterdhavians, outlander wizards and important priests, wealthy and successful Waterdhavian widows and ‘idle gentry,’ wealthy and successful Waterdhavian active merchants, Waterdhavian wizards, Waterdhavian high-ranking priests, Waterdhavian young or wastrel or elderly ‘sideblood’ nobles, Waterdhavian officials of all sorts (according to rank, with magisters at the top), Waterdhavian noble heirs, and Waterdhavian senior nobles, with the heads of Waterdhavian noble houses and the Lords highest of all.
In other words, if young wastrel nobles are playfighting in the courtyard of a noble villa, they can expect to get arrested if the owner of said villa demands it; if they are playfighting in Dock Ward, they can expect to go free. If they harm a noble heir, and the patriarchs of the heir demand justice, they’ll face justice (though usually noble families meet in private to settle things, unless the families involved are already feuding).
Drunkards and murderous hotheads (a young noble who tries to stab or hack someone as a Watch officer observes him, when said target isn’t already attacking him) WILL be arrested.
Nobles usually get released upon payment of fines, or (depending on their character, behaviour, testimony about why they acted as they did, and the character of the ranking Watch officer on duty) given a lecture and then released in the dead of night. Sometimes their weapons are confiscated, or kept and returned to their elder kin by the Watch so as to embarrass them into not behaving so badly again (to some older nobles, family reputation is EVERYTHING).
It’s also important to note that nobles don’t play pranks and get off “Scot-free” (to use an old real-world expression rooted in escaping English justice by getting over the border into Scotland): they pay for everything they break, plus a bit extra to mollify angry merchants, the next day, via their stewards (or sometimes, family factors [= trade agents] or seneschals), who visit the aggrieved merchants to “settle up.” Money is everything in Waterdeep; nobles who don’t pay for what they break lose prestige and tend to be harshly treated by kin, peers, and the Watch (not believed or trusted if involved in future troubles, not seen as good investment risks or marriage material, and so on). Of course, FEMALE nobles who indulge in wild behaviour are considered scandalous by the city - - but admired and even avidly chased and courted by ‘wild’ male nobles, and by the lowlives in Dock Ward, who admire and understand such “kicking over the traces” conduct.
So nobles may be arrested if they start battles in Sea Ward or North Ward and damage the property and peace of wealthy, noble, or successful folk (and visitors staying in expensive inns); they’ll certainly be quickly ‘run off.’ They may also be arrested anywhere for their own safety (if the Watch judges hustling them out in a jailbound Watch lock-wagon is the best way to extricate them alive), or if their pranks bid fair to start a large fire or a huge brawl. Otherwise, they can “cut up fair” with impunity in Dock Ward, South Ward, and Trades Ward (impunity meaning they face merchants defending property, and the Watch moving in as soon as things get out of hand). They’ll have to be “quick and sharp” to play pranks involving swordplay and destruction in most places in Castle Ward, will be arrested promptly if they try anything more than individual duels in the City of the Dead, and ditto in Sea Ward and North Ward. Please note that this DOESN’T mean the Watch will stand by and watch duellists proceed to the death; it means they won’t charge in with weapons drawn if they see only two combatants, but stop to ask what’s going on first.
So saith Ed, who’s hard at work trying to finish up several projects for Wizards, because he’s deep in planning future works for 2009 and beyond! (And no, he won’t even breathe hints about them, even to me, so don’t ask.)
love,
THO
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2005 : 03:42:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
So saith Ed, who’s hard at work trying to finish up several projects for Wizards, because he’s deep in planning future works for 2009 and beyond! (And no, he won’t even breathe hints about them, even to me, so don’t ask.)
love, THO
How about that book about Bane for 2010!
Go on Ed you know you want to!
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2005 : 06:12:11
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Wow, that just rocks!
Thank you very much Ed for answering!
I have to say that the way Ed puts it, running a campaign where the PCs are watchment of the city actually sounds like a fun idea. Uber potential for roleplaying there, not to mention numerous unique situations requiring shrewd in character (and out of character) judgment on the part of the players. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 14 Sep 2005 06:18:27 |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2005 : 21:15:24
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Well met! I have a couple of questions today for Ed:
1. Does becoming the Chosen of a deity confer agelessness and (near) immortality regardless of whether the deity lives or dies, or do the body clocks of the Chosen start ticking when their deity dies? (I mean my question vis-a-vis DM knowledge of characters.)
2. I note that hurting a Lord of Waterdeep merits immediate punishment and that the punishment is more severe than for hurting a non-Lord. If only one Lord is "open," is the punishment for harming a "hidden" Lord equal to or worse than that for harming anyone else? If worse, how is the punishment justified without revealing the Lord's identity? For example, if a Waterdhavian noble (not Joe Beggar from Turmish) stabs Mirt the Moneylender, how can the assailent be punished for assaulting a Lord without the City acknowledging that Mirt is a Lord? For that matter, if a Lord doesn't flash a Lord's insignia, do the Magistrates even know who the hidden Lords are, or are they left guessing as are other folk? |
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2005 : 03:02:22
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I just want to apologise for taking so long to send in my thanks to Ed for his response on elven banners. I just moved to grad school, and was without internet for a distressingly long period of time.
One further question along the same lines, way back when, how did the various elven nations know who was friend and foe on the battlefield, if they didn't have banners? (Other than the obvious "We're all moon elves, and the attackers are gold elves" battles)
Also, in your Realms of Eddie (bad title, since they at once point *were* all your Realms) stories you mention that the sign of Siluvanaede was a griffin (silver, I believe, it's in your preface to Making of a Mage that I love). What were the "signs of the realms" of other old elven realms? (I'm thinking specically Aryvandaar, Miyeritar, Eaerlann, and Ilythiir... I'd love to scare my players with the sign of Ilythiir deep in some dungeon...)
Many thanks, as always. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2005 : 22:50:54
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Hi, everyone. In yet another bound-to-be-controversial gods and divine spellcasters reply, Ed deals with Jamallo Kreen’s question: “If a caster of "divine" spells comes from outside 3E Realmspace with a class or prestige class other than "cleric" which very specifically allows access to "divine" spells without prayer to a deity ("Favored Soul," for instance), are they ... ah ... stuff outta luck without a Torilian patron (as they were in 2E) unless one of the above-suggested flukes occurs? What of spellcasters who rely on spirits for their spells but who come from outside Realmspace? Are there local spirits anxious to grant spells in order to add another worshipper/friend/whatever to their collection (not least because said mobile spellcaster can be a useful defender for them)? Or do the spirits of Toril arch their eyebrows at such types with an attitude of, "Why should we give spells to someone who would associate with Mount Watchmacallit on Planet Xyz?"”
Ed replies:
Hear now my usual caveat: I’m not (and have never been) a WotC staff designer, and am not the best source for game rules “rulings,” official or otherwise. However . . .
To gain divine spells in Realmspace, one MUST have a patron deity to grant them (one cannot worship an alignment, idea, concept, or principle and receive spells in answer to prayers). However, as Asgetrion suggested, “perhaps one of the Toril's deities would actually grant this divine spellcaster his spells, while trying to subtly convert/manipulate this priest to worship him/her in the long run?” I’ll go Asgetrion one further: I’d say that it’s very likely that a god of the Realms would almost always grant the ‘wandering’ divine spellcaster spells, in hopes of gaining a temporary tool or agent to further their aims, if not a new worshipper in the long run.
So, to borrow Wooly Rupert’s phrasing, “a local deity with a similar portfolio or alignment” WILL usually “grant your spells - - either out of a similarity to your deity, or an agreement with that deity,” or in hopes of their own gain. It’s like paying a nickel to buy the contents of an entire house: likely to reap something worth more than the magical expenditure, no matter what turns up. And yes, to echo Wooly’s point about 1st and 2nd level spells “coming back” just generally, if you want to maintain that in 3.5e Realms (and I as a DM would), just assume that granting such low-level spells is done automatically by greater gods to anyone of the right alignment (it’s one of the things that makes and keeps them “greater”).
So saith Ed. Doing the stealthy, gentle Canadian compromise thing, as usual.
love to all,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2005 : 04:02:56
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Hello, all. Ed just sent me a “business of the moment” multi-reply, and here ’tis:
To Brom Greenstar, Mystery_Man, and Sanishiver: you’re all very welcome! A pleasure!
Dargoth: WotC has said a firm “No!” to that Bane novel many times now, the latest time being at GenCon Indy 2005, whereat I asked several times, with well-prepared arguments. Sorry.
I CAN’T just write about whatever I want to write about: novels must be fully outlined and approved. I have a lot of freedom at the first draft stage, but that doesn’t mean, if I veer off from writing something about, say, the Knights of Myth Drannor into “Return of Bane, Told At Last” territory, that it would survive the editor’s scalpel. Remember, that scalpel always comes last. On many of my books, for various reasons, I’ve never seen galleys: things have jumped from my turning in a “final” draft to seeing the published book in the stores.
Sanishiver: a City Watch campaign set in Waterdeep could be GREAT fun. Have a glance at Terry Pratchett’s Night Watch in the Discworld novels - - not for the misfit members taken to extremes, or the humour (though Terry’s novels are both screamingly funny and superb satire), but for how interesting the lives and unfolding adventures of a Watch patrol can become when its membership does exhibit a lot of gender and racial variety. How about a Watch patrol where one member is disgraced nobility; another secretly in the pay of an outlander merchant trying to learn all he can about “business opportunities” in Waterdeep (i.e. who the moneylenders are, how much they’ll usually loan, what loans they like and what pitches they’ll nix - - and who the guildmasters are and what directions they’re aiming their guilds in), where the Watch member somehow discovers, a year or more into the secret relationship, is really trying to learn all of Waterdeep’s important NPCs for a secret Amnian financial takeover attempt; another is being blackmailed by Waterdhavians; still another came to Waterdeep to escape a past somewhere else, that inevitably catches up with him when someone ELSE comes to Waterdeep . . . and so on.
Jamallo Kreen, your two Sept. 14th questions happen to touch on matters I’ve been thinking or working on just now, so here are some swift replies:
1. “Does becoming the Chosen of a deity confer agelessness and (near) immortality regardless of whether the deity lives or dies, or do the body clocks of the Chosen start ticking when their deity dies?”
The body clocks of the Chosen start ticking the moment their deity dies, accepts their renunciation of Chosen status, or strips them of Chosen status (losing the portion of divine essence they hold; mortals who don’t hold some spark or mote of divine essence aren’t truly “Chosen,” regardless of what titles they may use or be given).
2. “I note that hurting a Lord of Waterdeep merits immediate punishment and that the punishment is more severe than for hurting a non-Lord. If only one Lord is "open," is the punishment for harming a "hidden" Lord equal to or worse than that for harming anyone else? If worse, how is the punishment justified without revealing the Lord's identity?”
The city would never reveal the identity of a Masked Lord by bringing such a charge unless the Lord was murdered, beyond reasonable likelihood of resurrection. The legal charge exists for instances when one or more Lords wearing their masks are attacked in public (e.g. at a Council meeting).
What ‘really happens’ in most cases of Masked Lords being murdered or severely wounded, is that the killers are either slain on the spot or after a hunt, or captured, disabled (usually painfully), and thoroughly mind-reamed by Khelben (or sometimes Tarthus, Laeral, or a senior Watchful Order magist) to learn what they know, their fate thereafter depending on precisely what is learned of their motives, mental state at the time of the attack (were they being controlled by someone else?), and capabilities (how dangerous are they?). In other words, some Lord-attackers down the years have quietly “disappeared” rather than facing proper public justice.
And no, the Magisters don’t officially know who any of the Masked Lords are, though some of them may make some pretty shrewd personal guesses, and “everyone” seems to “know” that Mirt the Moneylender is a Lord.
So saith Ed. Who will return with more replies on the morrow.
love to all,
THO
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2005 : 05:40:48
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This might be a touchy subject for some but I thought I would ask because it's been blown up on the WOTC boards.
Ed, are there any black or other colored NPC's in the published lore? :)
This is the thread where this started:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=501989&page=1&pp=30 |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2005 : 06:40:30
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Ed,
Thank you very much for the suggestions. Though I'm too steeped in my current campaign to run another, I'll gladly take your suggestions and turn them into a memorable group of NPCs. Now that my players have earned themselves a home in Castle Ward, I imagine they'll attract the attention of the watch sooner rather than later.
Thank you again!
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Scarabeus
Acolyte
Canada
27 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2005 : 07:07:00
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[quote]Originally posted by Kuje
This might be a touchy subject for some but I thought I would ask because it's been blown up on the WOTC boards.
Ed, are there any black or other colored NPC's in the published lore? :)
I remember the trader Akabar Bel Akash. He's a Turami. You can find him in FR7 Halls of Heroes. Here's a Quote: Like many Turmish merchants, Akabar sports a mustache and a long,square beard. He is dark-skinned, blueeyed, and has curly brown hair which he often bands with gold cords.
You can also find some characters from Kara-Tur in this book has well as Dragonbait who can be considered a colored NPC if you like the green . FR10 The Old Empires also has colored NPC's, but no famous ones. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2005 : 07:20:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Scarabeus
I remember the trader Akabar Bel Akash. He's a Turami. You can find him in FR7 Halls of Heroes. Here's a Quote: Like many Turmish merchants, Akabar sports a mustache and a long,square beard. He is dark-skinned, blueeyed, and has curly brown hair which he often bands with gold cords.
You can also find some characters from Kara-Tur in this book has well as Dragonbait who can be considered a colored NPC if you like the green . FR10 The Old Empires also has colored NPC's, but no famous ones.
I know of all them but I was looking for a more direct response from Ed because some of those posters are claiming that since he's white, he doesn't make a balanced world and most of his NPC's are white..... And that there really isn't that many black, or other colored, NPCs. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2005 : 09:55:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Scarabeus
I remember the trader Akabar Bel Akash. He's a Turami. You can find him in FR7 Halls of Heroes. Here's a Quote: Like many Turmish merchants, Akabar sports a mustache and a long,square beard. He is dark-skinned, blueeyed, and has curly brown hair which he often bands with gold cords.
You can also find some characters from Kara-Tur in this book has well as Dragonbait who can be considered a colored NPC if you like the green . FR10 The Old Empires also has colored NPC's, but no famous ones.
I know of all them but I was looking for a more direct response from Ed because some of those posters are claiming that since he's white, he doesn't make a balanced world and most of his NPC's are white..... And that there really isn't that many black, or other colored, NPCs.
The intelligentia of The Boards That Shall Not Be Named has struck again......... |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2005 : 12:24:59
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Heya,
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I know of all them but I was looking for a more direct response from Ed because some of those posters are claiming that since he's white, he doesn't make a balanced world and most of his NPC's are white..... And that there really isn't that many black, or other colored, NPCs.
Kuje, I don't think anyone was accusing Ed specifically of being unbalanced. The Forgotten Realms these days are way beyond only what Ed decrees, after all... And it was Ed who showed that Caladnei was actually "mulatto" in Elminster's Daughter. ('twas Troy Denning who "messed/mixed up" her description in the Return of the Archwizards series, and I'm not saying that was soley his fault either - these things happen, especially in a world shared as extensively as this one).
I must ruefully admit to also suffering from "colour blindness" in my own works, and the last post I made to that thread I did with blushing cheeks, realising just how much I fall into the same trap. I'm not being a hypocrite, I'm just admitting to my own weakness. Though in my own defense, I must say that most of what I write is set in a relatively small geographic region - if I were to ever expand beyond a single kingdom, I would probably take into account other races. |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
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Questions for Ed Greenwood (2005)
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