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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Dec 2004 : 17:22:08
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I loved The Rage. I didn't really notice the die rolling as I read. What I did notice is a novel that took me back to the time I first read Chronicles, and how amazed I was to see how a party of adventurers exists in a novel as oppose to the table-top. At that age (15), I was a gamer, but not an avid reader. Chronicles turned me into an avid reader, and The Rage took me right back to that first spark that lead to me reading more, respecting reading, respecting the game, and I'm sure that spark contributed to me becoming an English teacher.
That having been said, I do agree that when the FR novels stray too close to the gaming table, it gets annoying. I didn't see The Rage as a huge example of this. I saw The Rage as a return to the classic party of adventurers. I'm so sick of authors trying new things. Some of those new ideas are way out of whack and just don't work for me (like female dwarven bards who draw, a wizard who can't stop barking, or an army of bugbears and beholders... and ONLY bugbears and beholders  ). The Rage was more of a traditional novel for me, with a group of adventurers killing dragons, with each party member performing their individual roles, as would a group at the gaming table. I ate it up. Like I said above, it took me back to Chronicles, and that classic group of adventures (even though a half-iron golem and an artic dwarf aren't exactly traditional PCs).
To me, RAS is the one who is glaringly notorious for basically quoting the rulebooks verbatim. Let's look at a few examples:
-The mentioning of the Bigby spells in Passage to Dawn. 
-Jarlaxle explaining to Entreri what happens when a bag of holding and a portable hole come in contact with each other in the short story from Realms of Shadow (the DMG is quoted here). 
-Obould killing a bull and a great cat in The Lone Drow (obviously suggesting that his ceremony was merely the permanent casting of the ability buff spells). 
Phil Athans is also guilty of this. In Annihilation, Gromph is preparing to battle the Lichdrow Dyrr, and Gromph's apprentices basically quote the Monster Manual word-for-word concerning the strengths and weaknesses of the lich. That particular scene caused a reaction in me that I can't describe. There was no reason to even include that scene, as Gromph would already know that information anyway. 
Greenwood would never, ever include such elementary information in his novels. He doesn't insult the intelligence of the reader, as many FR authors do by quoting rulebooks and automatically assuming that the reader knows absolutely nothing about the world, and must be hand-fed the story by cutting up our food like we're children. "Mom, will you cut up my steak for me! I can't do it!"
I didn't think The Rage was guilty of anything beyond recreating the classic party of adventurers. I devoured every page, and I never once stopped and said, "Wait a minute. Another author quoting the rulebooks. I'm annoyed now."
Some of the aspects of the novel might be cliché, but I like cliché every now and then. I need cliché in my FR novels once in a while just to rub salve on the rash caused by certain novels that try new ideas. I prefer the traditional group of adventurers, and The Rage is the most recent novel that satisfies that craving.
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"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 23 Dec 2004 17:25:24 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2004 : 02:03:06
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| I've found with more novels as of late, including the current FR one I'm reading, I'm skimming over the battle scenes. Too many books have a plethora of fight scenes that contain little interest to me as I know that the characters are in no danger and will find some way to triumph. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2004 : 08:09:25
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Perhaps I ought to reread it and point out each place I thought was excessive. I just feel that there was too much effort to use Races of Faerun all over the book, from identifying a hornblade simply because the halfling was using it, to the artic dwarf and the avariel, to how you could count off the latter's use of bladesinger abilities.
Others were just fine. One that I remember is the cleric having missed his time to pray for new spells. It's straight out of the rules, but its a rule that doesn't require a feeling of limited omnicience, which is something that bugs me in many stories. (Tolkein made it work, but he was using a completely different literary style.)
quote:
Originally posted by Crust
[...] female dwarven bards who draw
I actually liked her a lot. I found nothing wrong with the concept, and it was actually necessary if Danilo were to gain entry into dwarven circles (he'd hardly be befriending a dwarven battlerager half as easily, now would he?). And really, considering how much I like to interperate the world with my drawings, I think that there aren't enough artists like that in the Realms, or even all of D&D.
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[...] (even though a half-iron golem and an artic dwarf aren't exactly traditional PCs).
Don't forget the avariel, which was stressed as a huge no-no in 2e. Avariels are near-mythical and are only rarely supposed to interact with the rest of the Realms. If a winged character was absolutely necessary, it's easier and more believable than using an asimaar or tiefling with the Outsider Wings feat (plus, you get the Bladesinger levels), but I don't believe it was. Still, like seeing Arwen in armor, I'll wait until the third installment to rule on that one; if something good is done with the character in that way, I'll accept it. (It'll be easier to do than find any reason for having an arctic dwarf at all.)
In contrast, I actually approve of the half-golem concept.
quote:
To me, RAS is the one who is glaringly notorious for basically quoting the rulebooks verbatim. Let's look at a few examples:
-The mentioning of the Bigby spells in Passage to Dawn.
-Jarlaxle explaining to Entreri what happens when a bag of holding and a portable hole come in contact with each other in the short story from Realms of Shadow (the DMG is quoted here).
-Obould killing a bull and a great cat in The Lone Drow (obviously suggesting that his ceremony was merely the permanent casting of the ability buff spells).
I liked the Bigby spells, and how Melf's acid arrow was used. You can't completely get away from the rule books in D&D, but you can disguise them so as to be a part of the book's own world. That worked for me.
Obould's ceremony was just fine as well. It was completely in keeping with Real Life mythologies, especially Norse, where one absorbs the aspects of an animal. Sacrificing a beast of great strength and a beast of great agility in order to gain their aspects is far from unheard of.
The Realms of Shadow one was, on the other hand, completely out of place. You could hear the fourth wall shatter on that one.
[quote]
Phil Athans is also guilty of this. In Annihilation, Gromph is preparing to battle the Lichdrow Dyrr, and Gromph's apprentices basically quote the Monster Manual word-for-word concerning the strengths and weaknesses of the lich. That particular scene caused a reaction in me that I can't describe. There was no reason to even include that scene, as Gromph would already know that information anyway.
Perhaps it was that week's oral exam.  Seriously, I completely agree with you there. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2004 : 12:49:33
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I'll agree with Wyrmie on a couple of points...
I liked Morgalla in Elfsong. I didn't have a single problem with her character.
While I did enjoy the book The Rage, I wasn't bugged as much by rules scenes as I was just the variety of races represented in the main characters. An avariel, a half-golem, a song dragon, and an arctic dwarf? It was a bit too much for me. Had the arctic dwarf been a regular dwarf, it would have been more believable to me. As it was, it almost felt like the author had done a shopping list of exotic races to use as characters. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2004 : 17:12:06
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You both make good points. I don't own Races of Faerun, so I'm oblivious to those references in the novel.
I also agree that the roster of the party is a bit too "melting pot" on a certain level. It's like a season of the Real World, or a particular Power Ranger roster. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2004 : 18:48:14
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I just want to point out that Forsaken House is very guilty of using game mechanics in novel too and everyone seems to be nuts over that one. :)
But again the Rage isn't the only one. Venom's Taste and Forsaken House are also whoring out Races of Faerun.
If you wanted to talk conspiracy theory, I'd say it's a conscience effort to make us find all these new races cool after the amount of critism Wizards has gotten over adding them all to the Realms. Everything that's muchkin has become force feed to us in the accessories, now they're trying to legitimize them by putting them in novels. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2004 : 18:55:22
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Hail!
My own opinion on the novel is a bit prejuduce due to a number of ideas I've built up about Sammaster, Rages and Flights of Dragons, and the end of the Time of Dragons in my home campaign ("And Dragons Shall Rule ...").
I suppose what I liked least abouth the Rage was how easy it was for the heroes to uncover the cause of the Rage; which, even in elfin terms, occured in a distant, only half-remembered past ... equivalent to Homers Greece or ancient Egypt in the mind of modern man.
The quest should have been more drawn out. And should have required something more than a saunter through Northkeep; built and destroyed just yesterday in the greater scheme of things. Even Myth Drannor would have been too recent a place to find such an blatantly clear and concise answer in my opinion.
I can say however, that I will nevertheless be purchasing the coming books in the trilogy. Mostly because I enjoy the writers use of words, and his ability to make interesting things that I don't usually care for (ie. odd little nonhuman creatures that, really, belong in Hillsfar somewhere).
Its also nice, I suppose, to read about other peoples ideas regarding, more-or-less, the same things. I look forward to reading more about Sammaster, and getting all worked up about the specifics of his return.
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2004 : 19:10:09
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| It's not that I object to the inclusion of new (or at least, not-standard) races, it's just that it's a bit weird having such an assortment in one group. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 04:12:17
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
But again the Rage isn't the only one. Venom's Taste and Forsaken House are also whoring out Races of Faerun.
 An interesting way to put such sentiment.
quote:
Everything that's muchkin has become force feed to us in the accessories, now they're trying to legitimize them by putting them in novels.
So is such an attempt working with Candlekeep's scribes? Do these subjects become legitimate simply because they are used in a FR novel? |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 05:11:53
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
So is such an attempt working with Candlekeep's scribes? Do these subjects become legitimate simply because they are used in a FR novel?
Not with me. While I enjoyed The Rage well enough, my suspension of disbelief always teetered on the verge of shattering into tiny little bits. Avariel, yes. Half-golem, sure. Arctic dwarf, why not? Song dragon? Neat. But the probability of them being crammed into one single adventuring party? Omgwtfbbq. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 05:18:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Not with me. While I enjoyed The Rage well enough, my suspension of disbelief always teetered on the verge of shattering into tiny little bits. Avariel, yes. Half-golem, sure. Arctic dwarf, why not? Song dragon? Neat. But the probability of them being crammed into one single adventuring party? Omgwtfbbq.
Well they are split up in the next novel. Does that help?
OMGWTFBBQ? That's a new one for me.  |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 05:43:24
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
OMGWTFBBQ? That's a new one for me.
While a little hard to parse I will give it a try.
OMG (Invoking deity)
WTF (indication of confusion)
BBQ (?) (perhaps too much at same time) |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 07:11:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
While a little hard to parse I will give it a try.
OMG (Invoking deity)
WTF (indication of confusion)
BBQ (?) (perhaps too much at same time)
Oh, I got it all save for the BBQ reference. But alas, perhaps some things are best left with a little air of mystery.
And speaking of mystery...
SB returning to The Rite with the CSI avariel |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 18:02:23
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
OMGWTFBBQ? That's a new one for me.
Ah -- you don't read SomethingAwful? In which case, I bring you enlightenment. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 19:07:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Ah -- you don't read SomethingAwful? In which case, I bring you enlightenment.
Thank you Winterfox. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 20:04:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
So is such an attempt working with Candlekeep's scribes? Do these subjects become legitimate simply because they are used in a FR novel?
Not with me. While I enjoyed The Rage well enough, my suspension of disbelief always teetered on the verge of shattering into tiny little bits. Avariel, yes. Half-golem, sure. Arctic dwarf, why not? Song dragon? Neat. But the probability of them being crammed into one single adventuring party? Omgwtfbbq.
Well, Winterfox, when you got Sammaster coming back from the dead outta nowhere and start the largest and deadliest dragon rage known to Faerun, anything is possible... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 20:35:34
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Thank you Winterfox.
You're welcome. I love that site; it's even got an entry on the infamous "my hed is pastede on yay!" in-joke (shame it doesn't have the origins noted. Ah, well, you can't have everything).
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Well, Winterfox, when you got Sammaster coming back from the dead outta nowhere and start the largest and deadliest dragon rage known to Faerun, anything is possible...
Which is why my suspension of disbelief didn't completely break. I still maintain, though, that it got a bit much. I'm surprised Pavel didn't turn out to be a quarter-dragon, quarter-genasi, quarter-tiefling, quarter-aasimar with a were-giraffe template or something. |
Edited by - Winterfox on 25 Dec 2004 20:36:50 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 21:06:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
I'm surprised Pavel didn't turn out to be a quarter-dragon, quarter-genasi, quarter-tiefling, quarter-aasimar with a were-giraffe template or something.
Oh, come now, Winterfox! You know the were-giraffe template can't be combined with quarter-aasimars! Something about the aasimar blod nixing lycanthropy.. It's all in the Complete Book of Crunch, coming out early next year.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 22:41:55
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Of course, to be fair, I have to consider that some kind of quota was given for the book. Such as "use two races, at least two weapons, and at least one PrC from Races of Faerun." That would give a reasoning for some of the things. For instance, two RoF races were certainly used, the skiprocks were in full force, there's a conspicuous identification of the halfling's weapon has a must-be hornblade, and of course being able to count off bladesinger abilities.
If so, then that gives some not-inconsiderable hope for the other two books. Now that such things are shown, perhaps there'd be less focus on product placement and more on story. Unless, of course, quotas are levied for Lords of Darkness or something. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 22:47:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Of course, to be fair, I have to consider that some kind of quota was given for the book. Such as "use two races, at least two weapons, and at least one PrC from Races of Faerun." That would give a reasoning for some of the things. For instance, two RoF races were certainly used, the skiprocks were in full force, there's a conspicuous identification of the halfling's weapon has a must-be hornblade, and of course being able to count off bladesinger abilities.
If so, then that gives some not-inconsiderable hope for the other two books. Now that such things are shown, perhaps there'd be less focus on product placement and more on story. Unless, of course, quotas are levied for Lords of Darkness or something.
Truly, I hope you're wrong about forced product placement in novels... It's bad enough that they have the "Ten Reasons Your Character/DM/Rule Lawyer Wants This Book" bits on the website... I DO NOT want the novels I buy to become catalogs for whatever WotC has decided to sell me this week...  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Dec 2004 22:48:54 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 22:54:34
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Mainly I offer it as an explanation for why a lot of the book is very, very sound, but then parts grab me like a sumberged reef under a large-draft hull . . . .
Personally, if someone has to be blamed for it, I'd much rather blame the company and some heartless editor than someone who obviously knows the Realms so well. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2004 : 14:45:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Truly, I hope you're wrong about forced product placement in novels... It's bad enough that they have the "Ten Reasons Your Character/DM/Rule Lawyer Wants This Book" bits on the website... I DO NOT want the novels I buy to become catalogs for whatever WotC has decided to sell me this week...
Hey, I said it earlier... I was just more.. colorful.. in how I described WOTC pimping out their product. :) |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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The Rage questions
