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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 14:24:54
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| Does anybody know when we're going to see CoS in Britain? Despite my best efforts I've been unable to track down a date beyond 27 July on Amazon, which seems an awful long way away. No copies are on ebay yet and neither of my local gaming stores has it yet, |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Sgain
Acolyte
Canada
32 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 16:17:27
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I suppose it comes down to the fact that the older editions of the city are pretty much unavailable. During the 70's and 80's I played a different campaign world (Judges Guild City State of the Invincible Overlord), and used their products for my cities. So I didn't see much point in buying Waterdeep. Now my players want to play in Faerun, and since I've sort of skimmed the history of the world for years I felt it would be fun to DM it.
Waterdeep is supposed to be the biggest, most interesting city in the world, its been mentioned and described multiple times in novels and even computer games. Hence, I figured that any book on the place would have plenty of descriptions of specific locations and NPC's that the Players are likely to encounter.
The NPC's described in this release are usually 'Epic' or 'Leader' level characters, that frankly would not be encountered by most players, or if they did, they certainly wouldn't be fighting them. Hence detailed information about them really isn't required.
In terms of the scale of the city, yes I do understand that there are literally hundreds of stores and locations, that goes without saying in a city of this size. What would have been nice would be more detail on the maps (say in each ward, all the building hieghts and design types, have all the buildings numbered (not just a few) and have lots more clearly identified as specific locations). I don't want to follow the 'dotted line' as someone else mentioned, but I don't think I should have to blow $200 to purchase a partially complete gaming product to run my game in (I've looked on Ebay for the earlier editions of Waterdeep, and related products).
Again, I point to the re-release and udating of City State of the Invincible Overlord, which gives a much better description of a city for use in gaming. There are major problems with the books layout (street names not listed as headers for buildings, lack of specific physical characteristics of buildings), but it does give really good detail on the basic workings of the city, and its inhabitants.
I don't have a problem with buying an udated product to use in my game, heck I've blown about $400 on 3.5 edition stuff already and I know for a fact that I'll never use a good 50% of the information in those books. So blowing $60 or $70 on a complete 'full blown' version of something doesn't really phase me. Blowing $40 on a history essay does.
I'm not writing a novel about the city, I'm running a game and need more specfic details to 'wing it' with. Even having say three or four of each type of shop detailed and some quick reference tables would really help.
Oh well. Obviously not gonna happen.
cya
Sgain
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 16:40:35
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Nindil Jalbuck has been replaced by Hlaavin! That does not bode well for the other Lords...
I wonder if this will be further explored in the novel?
Go forth and demand ask politely one of the authors.
Nah... We'll know in a month or two. I'll wait. 
I do find one thing about irksome, though. They put Kyriani in Danilo's old slot, looking out for elven interests. First, I'm not convinced she'd be all that good at that. In the comic, she never seemed all that concerned with things elvish.
Also, my informal Lords of Waterdeep project had already filled that slot! Now one of my Lords is useless... I'm going to backburner him and rethink his concept. I guess it's time to move to the last one I was going to create.  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 02:40:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Also, my informal Lords of Waterdeep project had already filled that slot! Now one of my Lords is useless... I'm going to backburner him and rethink his concept. I guess it's time to move to the last one I was going to create.
Are you going to explain Jalbuck's replacement as it is in the CoS, or will you try for something different?
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Ty
Learned Scribe
USA
168 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 05:52:45
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As to what WCoS is and is not, Krash makes a number of valid points. I don't yet have the newest sourcebook in my hands yet (quite the shame yes I know  ) but I also know this; if I wanted to, I could have almost a complete Waterdeep city if I purchased every supplement that was published for it or included it (such as Savage North and the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas). To be perfectly frank though, I have each of those supplements, I've spent closer to $200.00 on them (much less now considering some are free downloads now), and I still don't use 90% of the material published whenever our adventures end up in Waterdeep.
Some people may ask why and the reason is simple; it's our campaign and things are different. These supplements serve as superb guides to the city but at the end of the day of the game, it is the DM who decides what blacksmith there is, the map for the tavern, and just who that sneaky thief in the alley was. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 06:42:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Sgain
I suppose it comes down to the fact that the older editions of the city are pretty much unavailable. During the 70's and 80's I played a different campaign world (Judges Guild City State of the Invincible Overlord), and used their products for my cities. So I didn't see much point in buying Waterdeep. Now my players want to play in Faerun, and since I've sort of skimmed the history of the world for years I felt it would be fun to DM it.
I see them on eBay all the time... Within the last week I've seen both the City of Splendors boxed set and Volo's Guide to Waterdeep on eBay, both for reasonable prices.
quote:
Originally posted by Sgain
The NPC's described in this release are usually 'Epic' or 'Leader' level characters, that frankly would not be encountered by most players, or if they did, they certainly wouldn't be fighting them. Hence detailed information about them really isn't required.
I see a lot more people that are level 10 or under than I do epic or leader characters... Sure, there's plenty of powerful folks, but there's a lot more grunts.
And detailed info? Other than the Encounters section and a few others here and there, most NPCs have just their alignment, gender, race, class, and level as a stat block -- not only is that not detailed, that's exactly the stat block a lot of us want. That way, we know what to start with, and can customize the NPCs to fit. This also avoids things like the stat block for the guy in the "Alustriel's Consort" Realmslore column, when the stat block didn't track with the description.
quote:
Originally posted by Sgain
In terms of the scale of the city, yes I do understand that there are literally hundreds of stores and locations, that goes without saying in a city of this size. What would have been nice would be more detail on the maps (say in each ward, all the building hieghts and design types, have all the buildings numbered (not just a few) and have lots more clearly identified as specific locations). I don't want to follow the 'dotted line' as someone else mentioned, but I don't think I should have to blow $200 to purchase a partially complete gaming product to run my game in (I've looked on Ebay for the earlier editions of Waterdeep, and related products).
You've not looked on eBay terribly hard, then...
And the level of detail you describe would take the entire 160 pages, and level no room for anything else -- like NPCs, laws, unique features like Blue Alley, etc.
Besides, that level of detail would scare many DMs away. If every single building is described, how am I, someone who tries to stick with canon, to put my thief NPC in this house, or make these two buildings into an inn owned by this group of NPCs?
I don't want every single detail filled in for me. I have an imagination, and I want to use it. Give me guidelines so I know what parameters to stick to, and I'm happy. It's why I chose a detailed setting rather than make one up -- I want enough details to know what's going on, but not enough that I can't build on it.
There has always been a lot of wiggle room for DMs left in FR products. This is a good thing -- we need wiggle room, or we can't make the campaign our own.
And $200 for a partially complete game product? Where does this number come from? For $200, I could buy the City of Splendors boxed set, the City of Splendors sourcebook, Volo's Guide to Waterdeep, the Waterdeep Trail Map, FR1 Waterdeep and the North, and still have enough to take my lady out to dinner and a movie.
quote:
Originally posted by Sgain
I don't have a problem with buying an udated product to use in my game, heck I've blown about $400 on 3.5 edition stuff already and I know for a fact that I'll never use a good 50% of the information in those books. So blowing $60 or $70 on a complete 'full blown' version of something doesn't really phase me. Blowing $40 on a history essay does.
Spending $30 on a 160-page sourcebook with seven pages of history is "blowing $40 on a history essay"?   
History is a very important part of a city. Not only does it provide inspiration for campaigns and adventures, it helps explain a city's flavor. Knowing where something comes from helps one understand why it is the way it is today. I, personally, would have loved to have seen more history.
quote:
Originally posted by Sgain
I'm not writing a novel about the city, I'm running a game and need more specfic details to 'wing it' with. Even having say three or four of each type of shop detailed and some quick reference tables would really help.
Oh well. Obviously not gonna happen.
cya
Sgain
Use the Force, Luke. Even without drawing from the previous sources, I'm still seeing a lot in this tome to work with. I don't see a need for a book three times the size to give me unnecessary details I can create on my own.
A city is more than just a collection of buildings. Cities are the people in them: the way they live, they way they love, the way they work and play and die. Cities are the history that shaped them in the past, and the forces that are shaping their future. You give me these things -- as this tome does -- and I've got all I need. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Jun 2005 06:43:11 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 08:58:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A city is more than just a collection of buildings. Cities are the people in them: the way they live, they way they love, the way they work and play and die. Cities are the history that shaped them in the past, and the forces that are shaping their future. You give me these things -- as this tome does -- and I've got all I need.
A valid point.
I know that, for myself, I will thoroughly enjoy CoS and that's being said without me even seeing the tome itself. I know I'll enjoy it because it'll give me just what I need -- a framework to build upon. As Wooly just said, and as I stated earlier, Waterdeep isn't a static environment. Like every other place in the Realms it is an environment that lives and grows each time it is brought into a campaign and used as an adventure locale. It evolves as a result of the interactions of the people and races who live there. And most importantly of all, it changes every time you read about it. What you do with Waterdeep makes it your own, and I much rather prefer MY Waterdeep to anyone else's. This is because MY Waterdeep reflects not only my own personal tastes, but also the history of my own FR campaign and the events of the North, as well as the Savage Frontier.
In a discussion about another setting, I once said that Sigil was not only the "City of Doors" itself, but the people who make their homes there and build lives for themselves -- a city is built through history and people, not bricks and stone. The same is true for any fantasy city, Waterdeep included.
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Sgain
Acolyte
Canada
32 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 10:54:37
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quote:
from Wooley
And $200 for a partially complete game product? Where does this number come from? For $200, I could buy the City of Splendors boxed set, the City of Splendors sourcebook, Volo's Guide to Waterdeep, the Waterdeep Trail Map, FR1 Waterdeep and the North, and still have enough to take my lady out to dinner and a movie.
Actually in Canada (where I live) the books cost between $35-45 before taxes, so if I was to buy the books on Ebay for say $40 US, pay the shipping, and taxes, it would most likely cost me about $70 Cdn. Thats for ONE of those out of print books. Since its not 3.5 I'd have to convert all the critters and NPC's (a lot of time), so its pretty much a waste for me (I work for a living and have only a certain amount of time to run/create/DM adventures), hence when I want a 'GAMEAID' I expect it to cover the basics, not fluff that is not readily useable in a game.
Seems to me that a lot of folk concentrate on 'Canon' and not actual gaming. This product is not something that is readily useable by itself as a game aid, nor is it much use to run an adventure without a huge amount of work on the part of the DM. Some of you keep going on about older out of print books. I frankly don't care about them, as they are not the topic of this conversation, and are beside the point that I am trying to make. The point being that this product concentrated upon 'Background' and not useable information in my game, which is why I would have purchased it.
quote:
The Sage says;
I know that, for myself, I will thoroughly enjoy CoS and that's being said without me even seeing the tome itself. I know I'll enjoy it because it'll give me just what I need -- a framework to build upon. As Wooly just said, and as I stated earlier, Waterdeep isn't a static environment.
Something as complex as a City requires more than just an outline to setup and run properly. Thats why I wanted more detail. I certainly don't expect to have every single building drawn out and populated, nor do I want every single place designated on the map. What I wanted (and obviously this is out of the question) is something that I could build on without having to spend a lot more money and time on.
Heck, even if each of the Wards were an individual book with some more detail I'd be happy, just don't bother putting in more Prestige Classes (useless), Heaps of Background Info (useless), and tons more Magic Items (useless). Come on folks; there must be well over 2 dozen Prestige Classes now! Its getting so that every product has 3 or 4 of them along with more redundant feats and re-hashed monsters.
It seems like every product adds more rules to the game (after all thats what feats and prestige classes are), and its rapidly spinning out of control! What ever happened to just making an adventure with some good hooks and bad guys for us to campaign against? This book spent more space on new classes and magic items than it did on the actual layout of the city.
Doesn't that bother anyone other than me? Am I the only person that wanted to use the product in an actual game, without having to purchase a batch of out of print books?
quote:
From the I don't want every single detail filled in for me. I have an imagination, and I want to use it. Give me guidelines so I know what parameters to stick to, and I'm happy. It's why I chose a detailed setting rather than make one up -- I want enough details to know what's going on, but not enough that I can't build on it.
Sorry but this seems to be a contradiction in terms to me; you don't want detail yet you want to use a 'detailed' setting? While having an imagination is a good thing, even I admit that having ever single place detailed is impossible and would ruin the free form of expression that most DM's want. But just having backstory (guidelines) isn't detail, its Backstory it tells about what happened hundreds of years ago to the city, something that I don't think most low level characters would know about or even understand, and as a DM its pretty much fluff.
I could go on and argue my point, but its most obviously a waste of bandwidth. It seems like folk are happy with the product, and I am not. I am just very disspointed and have specified why, obviously others are happy with it and thats fine.
cya
Sgain
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 16:32:40
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
One place to look for those books is as downloadable Pdfs, then you just have to print them at your own leisure, or just view them on your computer.
RPGNow.com and SVGames.com are both good sources. And most of the Pdf are $5US
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 16:47:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Sgain
quote:
from Wooley
And $200 for a partially complete game product? Where does this number come from? For $200, I could buy the City of Splendors boxed set, the City of Splendors sourcebook, Volo's Guide to Waterdeep, the Waterdeep Trail Map, FR1 Waterdeep and the North, and still have enough to take my lady out to dinner and a movie.
Actually in Canada (where I live) the books cost between $35-45 before taxes, so if I was to buy the books on Ebay for say $40 US, pay the shipping, and taxes, it would most likely cost me about $70 Cdn. Thats for ONE of those out of print books. Since its not 3.5 I'd have to convert all the critters and NPC's (a lot of time), so its pretty much a waste for me (I work for a living and have only a certain amount of time to run/create/DM adventures), hence when I want a 'GAMEAID' I expect it to cover the basics, not fluff that is not readily useable in a game.
If you're paying US$40, you're paying too much. You can get those books for reasonable prices.
The most I've paid for any FR product on eBay was $25 for the Waterdeep Trail Map. I know that there's a couple of other products that command prices higher than that, but only a couple and we're not discussing them.
And you think the rest of us don't have to work? I don't think any of us has enough money to sit back and do what we want, without worrying about work. But is it really all that hard to flip something from 2E to 3E? Most of the stuff -- even characters and monsters -- can be flipped over at a glance, with hardly any effort. The only time it gets more involved is if you want to convert every single proficiency to a skill or feat -- and there's no need to do that, in most gameplay. Besides, unless you're using Hall of Heroes or something like that, usually 2E characters just have a single stat line to convert. I'm sorry, but I don't see any real difficulty in turning (NE hm M7) into something I can use in 3E.
The game is not in the minutiae. The game is in the feel and the flavor.
quote:
Originally posted by Sgain
Seems to me that a lot of folk concentrate on 'Canon' and not actual gaming. This product is not something that is readily useable by itself as a game aid, nor is it much use to run an adventure without a huge amount of work on the part of the DM. Some of you keep going on about older out of print books. I frankly don't care about them, as they are not the topic of this conversation, and are beside the point that I am trying to make. The point being that this product concentrated upon 'Background' and not useable information in my game, which is why I would have purchased it.
Concentrating on canon has nothing to do with gaming. Wanting to keep my Realms fairly close to the official version is a personal preference, and it does not affect gaming at all.
Background, to me, is essential information. The more background I have, the more useful something is. I can't do much without the background to build on.
quote:
Originally posted by Sgain
quote:
The Sage says;
I know that, for myself, I will thoroughly enjoy CoS and that's being said without me even seeing the tome itself. I know I'll enjoy it because it'll give me just what I need -- a framework to build upon. As Wooly just said, and as I stated earlier, Waterdeep isn't a static environment.
Something as complex as a City requires more than just an outline to setup and run properly. Thats why I wanted more detail. I certainly don't expect to have every single building drawn out and populated, nor do I want every single place designated on the map. What I wanted (and obviously this is out of the question) is something that I could build on without having to spend a lot more money and time on.
See, that's what the rest of us are not seeing. The rest of us see plenty of stuff to build on; it's detailed enough to provide a framework, and yet it's left open enough to allow DMs plenty of room to play.
quote:
Originally posted by Sgain
Heck, even if each of the Wards were an individual book with some more detail I'd be happy, just don't bother putting in more Prestige Classes (useless), Heaps of Background Info (useless), and tons more Magic Items (useless). Come on folks; there must be well over 2 dozen Prestige Classes now! Its getting so that every product has 3 or 4 of them along with more redundant feats and re-hashed monsters.
You want a book on each of the Wards? Let me get this straight: you don't want to spend $200 to get a completely detailed city, but you'd buy a bunch of Ward books? There's 7 Wards. At $30 a piece, that's $210 -- more than the amount you already said you didn't want to spend.
quote:
Originally posted by Sgain
It seems like every product adds more rules to the game (after all thats what feats and prestige classes are), and its rapidly spinning out of control! What ever happened to just making an adventure with some good hooks and bad guys for us to campaign against? This book spent more space on new classes and magic items than it did on the actual layout of the city.
Doesn't that bother anyone other than me? Am I the only person that wanted to use the product in an actual game, without having to purchase a batch of out of print books?
I see possible hooks on every page of this book. I see bad guys scattered all throughout the book. Now you're saying you want this, but above you decry the lack of detail. Which do you want?
No, you're not the only person who wants to use this product in a game. However, you do seem to be the only one who thinks it's useless. This puzzles me, as it does have stuff you say you want -- and a lot of it.
While I'll agree that we could have used more details on the physical layout of the city, even without older material, it's still a lot more than most cities of the Realms have gotten. How many other Realms cities have received more than a few pages of description, if that much?
quote:
Originally posted by Sgain
quote:
From the I don't want every single detail filled in for me. I have an imagination, and I want to use it. Give me guidelines so I know what parameters to stick to, and I'm happy. It's why I chose a detailed setting rather than make one up -- I want enough details to know what's going on, but not enough that I can't build on it.
Sorry but this seems to be a contradiction in terms to me; you don't want detail yet you want to use a 'detailed' setting? While having an imagination is a good thing, even I admit that having ever single place detailed is impossible and would ruin the free form of expression that most DM's want. But just having backstory (guidelines) isn't detail, its Backstory it tells about what happened hundreds of years ago to the city, something that I don't think most low level characters would know about or even understand, and as a DM its pretty much fluff.
I want enough detail to know the parameters of what I can do. That's not a contradiction in terms... I'm saying that I want the foundation to be laid down for me -- the building I put on that foundation has to fit, but I can otherwise build it exactly the way I want. So long as the foundation will support it, I can put as many stories on the building as I want; I can put rooms where I want, shape them how I want, put in the windows I want, and paint it green with hot pink polka dots if I so desire.
So long as I have a framework, I can build on it.
Backstory shapes the present. If you know where something came from, you know where it's going. This is not useless fluff; it's the stuff most DMs want.
And if you don't want crunch and you don't want "fluff", then what do you want? Your arguments are going all over the place...
quote:
Originally posted by Sgain
I could go on and argue my point, but its most obviously a waste of bandwidth. It seems like folk are happy with the product, and I am not. I am just very disspointed and have specified why, obviously others are happy with it and thats fine.
cya
Sgain
Sure, you've given some reasons why you're not happy. You've also contradicted your own reasoning.
Most of the stuff you're calling a liability is the same stuff that most of us find an asset. And since you're saying you want some of the same stuff the rest of us are finding in this tome, it's kind of confusing. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 18:16:23
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Some other interesting tidbits...
An agent of the Xanathar is being considered for a Lordship...
Members of the Tel'Teukiira who have levels in a Harper PrC are not considered ex-Harpers -- thus retaining the class abilities. You can even take levels as a Moonstar agent and retain your Harper abilities.
The Unseen have also infiltrated Force Gray (forget that new name for the group), and know who "The One" is.
There's a Harper in the city who is trying to weed out any Harpers who are not loyal to Twilight Hall or who would work with the Blackstaff.
A couple quibbles:
Harshnag's coloration in his description is pretty much the exact opposite of his coloration in the artwork. 
Mourngrym Amcathra is mentioned. He is listed as a Chondathan human, but his parents are Tethyrian humans... |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Jun 2005 18:17:33 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 21:19:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Some other interesting tidbits...
An agent of the Xanathar is being considered for a Lordship...
Correction, is engaged to marry a member of the Lords
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Unseen have also infiltrated Force Gray (forget that new name for the group), and know who "The One" is.
Correction: The Unseen have infiltrated the Red Sashes, they have also infiltrated the Lords.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Mourngrym Amcathra is mentioned. He is listed as a Chondathan human, but his parents are Tethyrian humans...
Seems alot of this is going on in the noble families. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 22:07:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And if you don't want crunch and you don't want "fluff", then what do you want? Your arguments are going all over the place...
Thank you. I thought perhaps I was the only one feeling that way. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 22:09:07
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Some other interesting tidbits...
An agent of the Xanathar is being considered for a Lordship...
Correction, is engaged to marry a member of the Lords
Which member of Xanathar and which Lord are engaged? |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 22:43:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Unseen have also infiltrated Force Gray (forget that new name for the group), and know who "The One" is.
The Unseen? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 01:19:57
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Some other interesting tidbits...
An agent of the Xanathar is being considered for a Lordship...
Correction, is engaged to marry a member of the Lords
Which member of Xanathar and which Lord are engaged?
Randulaith of Mirabar (NE Male Illuskan Human Wizard 9) is engaged to Brianne Byndraeth (CG Female Chondathan Human Sorcerer 12) |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 01:25:51
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Unseen have also infiltrated Force Gray (forget that new name for the group), and know who "The One" is.
The Unseen?
A group of Doppelgangers and other shapechangers that used to be a druuth (a band of Doppelgangers lead by Illithids) from the Illithid city of Ch'Chitl. They were tasked with infiltrating and spying on Waterdeep. With the death of the Elder Brain of Ch'Chitl, is now free of Illithid control and Hlaavin (NE Half-Illithid Greater Doppelganger Sorcerer 9) now leads the group, he is the one that has replaced Nindil Jalbuck (a Lord of Waterdeep) and was given his information that Nindil was a Lord by Mather Ukkhemn (CE Male Tethyrian Human Commoner 5) a member of the Knights of the Shield. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 02:36:56
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Some other interesting tidbits...
An agent of the Xanathar is being considered for a Lordship...
Correction, is engaged to marry a member of the Lords
Uh, did you read the entire section? While he is engaged to marry a Lord, it goes on to say "In the course of his courtship, he has also caught the eye of Caladorn Cassalanter and Sammereza Sulphontis, both of whom see the charming Randulaith as a possible future Lord..." (Page 65)
So what I said was correct.
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Unseen have also infiltrated Force Gray (forget that new name for the group), and know who "The One" is.
Correction: The Unseen have infiltrated the Red Sashes, they have also infiltrated the Lords.
My bad. I was so busy disliking that name change that I named the wrong group. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 02:53:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Uh, did you read the entire section? While he is engaged to marry a Lord, it goes on to say "In the course of his courtship, he has also caught the eye of Caladorn Cassalanter and Sammereza Sulphontis, both of whom see the charming Randulaith as a possible future Lord..." (Page 65)
Interesting developments. Thanks to both of you for the information. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 03:03:43
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Uh, did you read the entire section? While he is engaged to marry a Lord, it goes on to say "In the course of his courtship, he has also caught the eye of Caladorn Cassalanter and Sammereza Sulphontis, both of whom see the charming Randulaith as a possible future Lord..." (Page 65)
Interesting developments. Thanks to both of you for the information.
That's one of the things I'm loving about this tome: all the interesting developments!  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 03:12:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Harshnag's coloration in his description is pretty much the exact opposite of his coloration in the artwork.
Another reason to strike up a negative mark against the inclusion of coloured artwork in a FR product perhaps...?
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 20 Jun 2005 03:13:27 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 03:36:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Uh, did you read the entire section? While he is engaged to marry a Lord, it goes on to say "In the course of his courtship, he has also caught the eye of Caladorn Cassalanter and Sammereza Sulphontis, both of whom see the charming Randulaith as a possible future Lord..." (Page 65)
Interesting developments. Thanks to both of you for the information.
That's one of the things I'm loving about this tome: all the interesting developments!
Aye, can't even take a step, without tripping over a plot twist. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 03:46:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Harshnag's coloration in his description is pretty much the exact opposite of his coloration in the artwork.
Another reason to strike up a negative mark against the inclusion of coloured artwork in a FR product perhaps...?
Well, it is yet another example of the artwork not matching the description... You'd think that the FR art director would want people who matched the art to the description, but this is obviously not the case.  |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 04:23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
A group of Doppelgangers and other shapechangers that used to be a druuth (a band of Doppelgangers lead by Illithids) from the Illithid city of Ch'Chitl. They were tasked with infiltrating and spying on Waterdeep. With the death of the Elder Brain of Ch'Chitl, is now free of Illithid control and Hlaavin (NE Half-Illithid Greater Doppelganger Sorcerer 9) now leads the group, he is the one that has replaced Nindil Jalbuck (a Lord of Waterdeep) and was given his information that Nindil was a Lord by Mather Ukkhemn (CE Male Tethyrian Human Commoner 5) a member of the Knights of the Shield.
Would the Unseen be the group of Doppelgangers who recently left "The Hall of Mental Splendors" as mentioned in PGTF, their a Psionic Organisation based in Skullport? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 06:06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
A group of Doppelgangers and other shapechangers that used to be a druuth (a band of Doppelgangers lead by Illithids) from the Illithid city of Ch'Chitl. They were tasked with infiltrating and spying on Waterdeep. With the death of the Elder Brain of Ch'Chitl, is now free of Illithid control and Hlaavin (NE Half-Illithid Greater Doppelganger Sorcerer 9) now leads the group, he is the one that has replaced Nindil Jalbuck (a Lord of Waterdeep) and was given his information that Nindil was a Lord by Mather Ukkhemn (CE Male Tethyrian Human Commoner 5) a member of the Knights of the Shield.
Would the Unseen be the group of Doppelgangers who recently left "The Hall of Mental Splendors" as mentioned in PGTF, their a Psionic Organisation based in Skullport?
It's possible, I suppose... But the Unseen have been in Waterdeep for many years now, dating back well into 2E. I think their presence in Waterdeep predates the Hall's presence in Skullport. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 07:27:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
A group of Doppelgangers and other shapechangers that used to be a druuth (a band of Doppelgangers lead by Illithids) from the Illithid city of Ch'Chitl. They were tasked with infiltrating and spying on Waterdeep. With the death of the Elder Brain of Ch'Chitl, is now free of Illithid control and Hlaavin (NE Half-Illithid Greater Doppelganger Sorcerer 9) now leads the group, he is the one that has replaced Nindil Jalbuck (a Lord of Waterdeep) and was given his information that Nindil was a Lord by Mather Ukkhemn (CE Male Tethyrian Human Commoner 5) a member of the Knights of the Shield.
Would the Unseen be the group of Doppelgangers who recently left "The Hall of Mental Splendors" as mentioned in PGTF, their a Psionic Organisation based in Skullport?
It's possible, I suppose... But the Unseen have been in Waterdeep for many years now, dating back well into 2E. I think their presence in Waterdeep predates the Hall's presence in Skullport.
Aye, very hard to say, especially since there is nothing canon-wise to suggest they have anything remotely Psionic about them, other than Hlaavin's new status as Half-Illithid. |
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edbonny
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
157 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 14:02:43
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I must say that CoS has been a great read (I picked it up on Friday). Very, very enjoyable! Thank you Eric!
- Ed |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 17:20:23
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quote:
Originally posted by edbonny
I must say that CoS has been a great read (I picked it up on Friday). Very, very enjoyable! Thank you Eric!
- Ed
I'll agree with that! I've been reading thru it pretty quickly -- a lot faster than I do other Realms sourcebooks.
I particularly like the way it builds on so much of the earlier stuff. I've seen repeated references to characters, places, and events that were first in Dragon articles, in addition to the stuff that was in Volo's Guide to Waterdeep and the City of Splendors boxed set (and we still don't know what happened to the Cliffwatch Inn? Interesante...). There's also references to novels and to Cloak & Dagger... Add in the references to stuff from the comics, and I am one happy hamster indeed!  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Jun 2005 17:30:40 |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 17:39:01
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| How is the binding? Somebody please tell me, maybe I'll get some rest |
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City of Splendors: Waterdeep sourcebook
