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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 04:26:51
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While the Vancian magic system is functional and effective, it often seems to sacrifice flavor for game balance. Like many others, I've dabbled in creating other ways to express spellcasting and posted this thread as a place to display everything from totally new magic-using classes, old ones with a twist, prestige classes, or just ideas relating to the topic in general. What problems are common in the current system? What works very well? What rules are absurd or hinder play rather than enhance it? Are there any alternative methods that don't overpower the classes?
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But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
Edited by - Sourcemaster2 on 08 Nov 2004 04:32:14
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 08:07:00
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Well, the biggest thing is the spell slot system. Basically, the problem is that magic, from the character's perspective, becomes to obviously artificial to be something that has built up over time. If, instead, you switch to a "spell-point" system, where one-half of a spell level is one spell point (i.e., a cantrip or orison costs one point, a first-level spell two, and so on), things look like they make more sense. In other words, it's raw energy, rather than slots that are for particular spells.
You're still left with each spell requiring a minimum of energy, but it's still better. And considering that "minimums" (quantum packets) are part of our own life, it's not too hard to imagine magical "laws of nature" to describe this. Rather like the Law of Contagion, Law of Similarity, etc. At any rate, it's easier than explaining away the current system in roleplay -- and considering my Jack Archer character, I've tried. There's no way I can think of to explain why, when you put a first-level spell into a second-level slot, you can't "save" the excess energy -- namely, put two first-level spells into that second-level slot. Or, for that matter, why you can't pay two first-level slots for a second-level spell.
After a while, of course, you can realize that there are still problems. No where near what I just went through talking about, but even under the spell-point system I described, why can't you basically keep paying the cost? In other words, your mage armor spell's about to fail, so why can't you pay another first-level slot (or two spell-points) to keep it going? In this way, sorcerers are more "natural" in their mechanics. That's why I rather like the house rule where the spells that preparatory casters "memorize" actually fix their spell list for that day. (In other words, it's like setting up the sorcerer or bard's spells-known list, only the maximum you can prepare is equal to your spell slots, or your spell-point total. You then fire off as many of them as you want, until you have no more slots or points. This devalues the sorcerer and bard a bit, but you can fix that by giving them an extra spell known per level.)
The spell-point system is hard to set up. They tried in Unearthed Arcana, but I don't really like the system they described. It's really just far too complicated, and I'm not certain they thought it through. One problem is the fact that, in order to keep spellcasters at the same level of power as in the current version, they make a direct translation of the number of spell levels to spell points. This means that the accumulation of spell points has no pattern, while in the current system there's a pattern (though not a very good one) to how spell slots accumulate with levels.
Beyond that, the spell-point system is hard to use. You have to crunch numbers, which means you spend more time figuring out just how much your spellcaster can cast rather than actually playing. That's why the farthest I'll go in "fixing" the spell system (at least right now) is the second house-rule I mentioned (also from UA) where preparatory casters get to fix spells-known. I might allow a few other things, like, say, letting a caster use two cantrip-slots to cast another magic missile. But that's something I'd discourage wide use of, simply because if you use it a lot, it takes time away from the actual fun of the game. And if the game isn't fun, why play it? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 11:21:25
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I have tangled with these weighty topics before...
I truly despise vancian magic, really. Hence my obvious glee at the Spontaneous spellcasting of the Bard and Sorcerer in 3e, however, in a few months it was less perfect than it first seemed, and once more I started to long for a better way.
I have seen some of hte psionics system, and the basic mechanics it uses are much closer ot how I would liek to see magic portrayed(using a point system) but I have not studied it in any depth and cannot make a judgement at present.
I really like the idea of a Spellcaster having a certain amount of power they can access in a given day, and being able ot use that power as they see fit, according to the spells they know. I totally bu ya character that has access to only a pair of level 2 spells, but the knowledge(for the most part) of how a fireball works casting it if the need arose...
Albeit it would most likely consume his spell power for that day, require soem checks of various sorts to pull it off and not consume himself, and likely do some damage regardless.
It just seems dramatic to me, and I like dramatics. In a game I was adjucating, or a story I was writing I would allow a stunt like that to be pulled off.
Also, even though there is no mechanics for this, I do not lest my players cast their entire assortment of spells per day with no ill effects, they cna do it, but it is not comfortable... I don't have any real negative in game effects, but by golly, they better roleplay how tired, and I mean exhausted, their character is, how drained. (of course, I only really apply this to primary arcane spellcasters, for some reason, it seems rather off ilter for a higher level character that jsut has some apprentce level magic to exhaust theirselves after tossing a trio of cantrips and a shield spell) |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 11:53:44
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UA has rules on how to make a character tired after casting a number of spells (I think the limit was set at a third of capacity; under that, you get exhausted until you rest for about an hour or more). I don't particularly like it. I feel it should be primarily a roleplaying tactic -- just the fact that your spell capacity is decreased seems to me to be enough. (Now, if you were using that recharge varient, then my goodness you need to add that or throw in more monsters (and decrease XP rewards a bit)).
I have to say, though, that I'd subject an F19/W1 to the same rules as a W20, though. Perhaps he's a bit tougher (higher Constitution score might play in there a bit), but magic is a mental thing, and he's used his capacity. If I subject a 20th level arcane caster to "tiredness rules" then of course I'm going to do it for the fighter with only one wizard level.
Now, casting a fireball. No, I wouldn't let the PC you describe do it. Even in "normal" fantasy novels, if it's beyond the character, then it's beyond the character. I remember one in particular where the mage in question was shown a highly advanced spell. Normally if it's beyond the mage, then he can't even read it, but this he could comprehend. However, it appeared blood-red to him; it was a safeguard on the spellbook, reacting to the character's own power level. He could understand the spell, he could cast the spell, but he couldn't survive the spell.
Now, I might be willing to work up something as a house rule. Perhaps a really high Spellcraft check to memorize, another to cast it, and a hit point cost after casting. But these rules are here for a reason, and I don't want to go messing with them in that way until I can figure things out. After all, what's good for the PC is good for the NPC, and while the DM can fudge things, you still work within the same rules.
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Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 12:15:02
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Well, like I said, it would be in extreme cisrcumstances, with the player coming to me out of character, and us working it out before hand. Or even me surprising the player with this in the heat of things, so to speak. Not something anyone does on a regular basis, or even knows they CAN do.
Of course, this is not as well suported in the vancian magic system, and would be something I more envisio na sorcerer doing. However, I have allowed spontanous "levelling" in combat before(once for a cleric, and once for a fighter) where they would gain a significgant boost in power(an extra attack a round for the fighter, as well as Great cleave; and a new level of spells for the cleric).
They were very near to gaining those levels any how, and in the situation, it was rather dramatically appropriate, and quite an emotional moment. I do not regret that ruling. It fit the storyline, it fits my views of the workings of divine magic, and how I view some acquisition of class abilities. But msot importantly... it fit the moment.
Sometimes, a perso ncan find new reserves of personal strength they never knew they had, can be provoked to a rage, or find a strength of purpose they never knew existed...
Of course, I always tend to play up the indominatibility of the human spirit, and the ability of one man to change his fate, and choose his own destiny through sheer force of will. Such concepts appeal ot my sense of dramaticism, and make for intense RP at the table, especially when the life of not only one' character, but his fellows and possibly loved ones are in peril.
Of course... this is all one of the places where the rules actually hurt the game in my eyes. Making rules for this cheapens it, it was a spontaneous occurence that happened both times, I had toyed with the notion before but never implemented it or spoken much about it with anyone, I just reacted to the situation, and that way seemed best.
As I have maintained before, I will do so again,
The Rules exist to serve me, not I them. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 12:29:31
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No, no, actually, I agree with you there. I somewhat like the idea of leveling in combat, for the same reason you gave (or, if nothing else, the adrenaline surge). Now, there are other problems with it, but that's easily smoothed over. Mostly I was talking about something that really is beyond the character's ability, especially as a regularly occuring thing. I see you weren't talking about that, though.
Although, when I was thinking of a spellcaster before, I was thinking of a wizard. A sorcerer is someone I could imagine suddenly showing the ability to cast a fireball or other spell, and who would then roleplay trying to do it again.
Sorcerer: "But I did! It got four goblins!"
Fighter: "Yeah, sure, whatever. Back it up or shut up."
Obviously, the sorcerer would have to choose that spell when it became available, and I would expect the player to roleplay trying to cast the spell in the meantime, or meditate while trying to release his "inner fire." 
I think I'd also be open to clerics getting the same treatment, though it would be a bit less spectacular. Also, considering the source of a cleric's power, it might be a problem. Even if the player didn't, the character might get a swelled head. ("My deity really likes me, so you'd better kiss the ground I walk on.") |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 14:55:42
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I love Vanceian magic, and please bear in mind that the Realms used it even before Ed adapted the setting to D&D. It lacks nothing in 'flavor' or sense; but it does help to read the wonderful books that established it (look for ISBN 0312874561); the original AD&D did players the courtesy of assuming they had.quote:
There's no way I can think of to explain why, when you put a first-level spell into a second-level slot, you can't "save" the excess energy -- namely, put two first-level spells into that second-level slot. Or, for that matter, why you can't pay two first-level slots for a second-level spell.
It's not just energy: it's parts of your mind/soul that have been trained to hold particular magical shapes. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 18:17:11
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Okay, I will. But . . . would it really have been more difficult to say "look for Tales of the Dying Earth"?  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2004 : 23:50:07
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quote:
It's not just energy: it's parts of your mind/soul that have been trained to hold particular magical shapes.
But is there any reason your "mind/soul" can't be trained to pool magical energy gather than gather it in specific and seperate configurations of stored power? If spells were used more as filters or conduits for contained magic, I don't see any reason a point/mana/fatigue system coudln't be implemented. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2004 : 11:38:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
quote:
It's not just energy: it's parts of your mind/soul that have been trained to hold particular magical shapes.
But is there any reason your "mind/soul" can't be trained to pool magical energy gather than gather it in specific and seperate configurations of stored power? If spells were used more as filters or conduits for contained magic, I don't see any reason a point/mana/fatigue system coudln't be implemented.
Because Vancian magic is simple, easy, and it works. WHen a way to implement a spell poin system or some such is created that is as easy and simple as vancian magic, and as intuitively used, then it will be implemented, have no doubt.
Until then, we make do with what we have, much like (insert style of government you are under here). |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2004 : 16:51:04
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I think I'm getting used to amazon.com looking for search terms outside the author/title of books and giving me results I don't want, hence the ISBN.
Art working the way it does is just a fact of the Realms, like the sky being blue and orcs being greyish-brown. That's the kind of world Ed wanted it to be, where magic is complex and arcane and half the skill of a mage is planning spells in advance, not one of videogame 'mana reserves'. |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2004 : 11:26:59
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While it is easy to slap a "videogamer" label on anyone who dislikes vancian magic, the similiarities to suggested systems and videogames ends at the "mana pool" part.
For me, the slot based magic that I first learned of in 2e seemed idiotically cheesy and gamish, and like it was written into the novels and lore simply to back up the game. later I learned of wh yit came to be used, but still ,I disliked it.
The fantasy I grew up on had magic being more like sorcery is in 3e. You knew a spell, and thus could cast it, but it took something out of you. You didn't sit down and say "I would like three magic missiles, a Shield and an invisibility... oh, and a fried apple pie" you just.. went with the flow and cast the spells as was appropriate.
Having a finite amount of magical power one may use without damaging oneself is a pretty universal issue that goes well before the mana systems of video games as well. I mean, it is a pretty simple concept. A runner can only run so far before he is exhausted, a fighter has to rest from swinging his sword, why cannot a wizard cast spells until he gets tired as well?
It comes down to how one views magic. Sure, the realms is locked down for vancian magic. End of story.
BUT, and that is a big but, I would like to see it doene differently. So it cannot be "fixed" in the realms, fine, I can live with that, but I want to try to get it right for the next setting, so maybe such discussions are not appropriate here.
However, pigeonholing a system like that(polol based magic) as something of a videogame, or for those that like stupid wizards is just not fair.
I like hte idea of a wizard being able to cast spells that he knows, as much as he is able... but at a price. This makes for the smart wizards carefully shepharding evry bit of their power, not just saying "oh, I was about to go to bed anyway, there it goes" and cast a whole asenal with no drawbacks.
problem is, I also dislike the idea of spells in general. Ideally, for me, I would like to see magic as a force one harnesses to work your will with, each use a work of art tailored to the situation, not "perform actions x,y, and z, and reaction a ocurs".(although their being similiar actions, wit ha more standardized feel to them liek traditional spells I have no problem with, a drawing of a cat still looks lie man other drawings of a cat, afterall)
It seems a copout to me. A game based copout. It is hard to use magic i nagame like I described, even harder in 2e. So homogenized spells are a far easier alternative.
Maybe it's jsut me, I don't know, but magic as it appears in dnd currently, is just far too convenient, and too scientific for my tastes. But for me. I will jsut continue tinkering with what I believe to be a superior method of magic, and the rules to back it up. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
Edited by - Capn Charlie on 13 Nov 2004 03:17:09 |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2004 : 02:55:32
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| How about we try to outline exactly what we'd like in such a class. Maybe a list of items we'd like in fluff-style, and then we can work together to attempt to convert it to crunch? Anyone interested please drop a post. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2004 : 10:54:24
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Well, Capn Charlie was already going to be getting this information at some point, since he's helping me with the project, but here's how I'm planning the magic system in my novel.
Basically, you might consider it "Vancian Lite." You have to keep going back to that spellbook to refresh your memory. But the term "memory" here is used a lot closer to the norm than in Vancian, where it refers to those spell slots. Now, the least-complicated spells need to be refreshed less often, simply because the spellcaster is more used to them. Powerful spellcasters would seem to never "forget" these, though really it's just like having written out pi to the thousanth place so many times that you can remmeber it completely. (That is, less-used cantrips would need to be refreshed, but not something like, say, prestidigitation.)
Also, the clarity of the spell in your mind depends on the strength of your internal magic (I guess I'll just call it mana here). The more of a mana reserve you have, the sharper the pattern. The less you have, then it's like trying to see with a too-dim bulb. Eh, bad analogy, but the only one I can think of at this point.
Now, this isn't easily put into Vancian/D&D terms. I suppose you could say that after X level, cantrips can be cast twice before "losing" them. Then, after X2, first-level spells are the same, or that cantrips become castable three times. It's not really well done, though, because in my magic system there would be more spell levels than just ten. The lowest is one where you have kind of separate spells for the uses of prestidigitation, i.e., apprentices would learn different spells for lighting a candle, cleaning their clothes, etc. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2004 : 18:22:03
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| I recently came across a similar idea, though it wasn't put into stats. Basically, a mage had to memorize a spell, using standard components, but rather than it remaining in memory until cast, it lasted an amount of time dependent on the wizard, somewhere around a day per wizard level. With a bonus for intelligence, I think that could be implemented quite well. Using any prepared spells had no effect on the time they stayed memorized, but did cost energy (mana, power points, whatever; the wizard was physically drained by the casting, not damaged, but tired) This system keeps in line with needing a spellbook, but offers some added versatility. I also dislike the fact that the best archmage can manage only 4 cantrips; at least some 0-level spells should eventually be usable at will (or permanently memorized if the aforementioned idea is used) |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2004 : 06:36:35
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Cantrips and orisons should be affected by bonus spells at the very least.
I'd also like some of the cantrips to scale with caster level. For instance, I think mage hand should have a duration of at least 10 minutes per level, though use of it during that time requires a Concentration check. Prestidigitation is also something that should get better with experience. I'd make it an hour per level; by 16th level, it's effectively permanent if you "give up" a 0-level slot to power it.
Now, as to your idea, one day per wizard level is far too much. Considering the way the magic system is set up, it would be easier to make lower-level spells effectively doubled, as I already suggested. On the other hand, if you want, I'd make it based on the highest to lowest spell level. For instance, the highest spell level would only stay around for a day. The second for two days, the third for three, etc. Then a first-level wizard would have to memorize 1st-level spells each day, but 0-level spells only every other day, unless he wants to change the selection. You'd still have to spend eight hours to refresh your energy reserves, of course. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2004 : 00:00:16
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quote:
Now, as to your idea, one day per wizard level is far too much.
Sorry, not sure what you mean exactly. Too many days? The doubling idea works, but it is still a bit too Vancian for my tastes. I particularly like the above concept because (though this wasn't in the original) it could lengthen the memorization process, forcing a wizard to choose his selection so that an archmage would start to forget his first spells before he finished memorizing his entire library. Thus, a properly prepared wizard could have a formidable arsenal, but only if he'd had a fair warning of his situation, while standard utility magics could be ready at all times without worrying if that mage hand might be needed later. As you said, the 0th level is badly formatted, and either increased slots (if using the Big V), permanent memorization, or constantly active (prestidigitation and similar, though monitored for obvious reasons) is definitely needed. So, anyone have a completed class they use in their own campaign, or a modified/made-from-scratch magic system? |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2004 : 18:41:01
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| <-----Likes vancian magic. |
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A Means of Mojo
