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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Oct 2004 : 06:41:38
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It seems to me like the gods in the realms do not even care about their followers. The only reason they even look after them is because of the rules Ao set in place. And they weill just absorb the followers soul into themselves when the follower dies. That is by far the worst fate I could think of.
Yes, I know this post may seem strange after my post on Clerical magic's ultimate power.
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"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2004 : 07:27:45
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It depends on which god you are referring to. Some like Bane or Ghaundaur don't even care about their worshipers too much. They value them that they can do the tasks a god commands, but will replace them in a blink of an eye. In fact, that's why Ghaundaur is only a lesser deity. He used to be a very powerful deity but in a fit of a rage, he killed off like the most powerful of his followers and clergy.
Then there's gods like Mystra, Oghama, Lathander, etc. The goddess of magic herself has proven lots of times that she is willing to sacrifice lots for her worshipers. Perhaps one of the best examples is how she went after Mask even though Tyr had said the Shadowlord was not to be harmed. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Wood Elf Ranger
Senior Scribe
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2004 : 07:34:57
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I have to disagree. Some deities perhaps see their followers as just a means to an end for their own personal goals but most of them do not. I believe most deities care a great deal about their followers and the goings on in their lives. I know a lot of novels make it seem that they only care about big events or such. I think that the "chosen" are a good example not only does it reward their best followers but it gives the rest something to strive for. Another good example is in the avatars series especially the later books.
They don't absorb their followers either. When they die they go the the plane where that deity rules and they become a resident of that plane becomming a new being (such as a celestial of fiend) depending on their level and faith if I'm not mistaken. |
~Lee N.
"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2004 : 07:51:30
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| Wood Elf Ranger, you are correct about the followers becoming residents on their deity's plane but I'm too sure about the celestials and fiends part. Aren't the followers who die all just become shades? Then if their deities need servants to serve them in the afterlife, THEN they turn them into something else more powerful or useful? For example, when Avner of Hartsvale became the Seraph of Death for Kelemvor, he received wings and all these magical abilities and gifts from Lord Death. Before that, he was just a shade that lived in Torm's home. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Wood Elf Ranger
Senior Scribe
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2004 : 07:54:45
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Maybe I'm confused. I thought ALL the faithful became "citizens". I thought that shades were just the unfaithful those who did not believe in any deity in life. We may have to wait until Sage gets back for a more complete answer  |
~Lee N.
"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2004 : 08:08:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Gellion
And they weill just absorb the followers soul into themselves when the follower dies.
That is only one of the many different fates that await petitioners when they cross over.
Some alternate possibilities include the promotion to the rank of proxy. Assignments as guardians to important places of worship, or places of power that are crucial to the deity it serves are also another duty that awaits those petitioners who prove themselves capable through extended service to their god. As well as this, deities always require envoys to the realms of other powers (slightly different from the proxy)... and some gods even assign one specific envoy to each god they are either allied or currently at war with.
There are many more possibilities than those I've just mentioned. Perhaps, once I've had a significant amount of sleep, I will elaborate more on them.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wood Elf Ranger
Senior Scribe
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2004 : 17:02:49
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Please do this is very interesting and I can't recall much having been written about it.
Something that would be really awesome would be a detailed list of what a person could become when they die depending on their ECL/faith level and which deity they follow of course. |
~Lee N.
"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU |
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kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2004 : 00:15:40
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I though that the "strength" of a deity in the Realms was determined by the number of followers that deity is worshipped by.
If so, I'd suggest that the gods care very much about their followers. They just show it in different ways.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2004 : 00:28:46
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quote:
Originally posted by kahonen
I though that the "strength" of a deity in the Realms was determined by the number of followers that deity is worshipped by.
If so, I'd suggest that the gods care very much about their followers. They just show it in different ways.
This is only part of how thier strength is determined, according to the 3/3.5e FR books. There are other factors involved, but what they are none of us know since WOTC hasn't detailed those other factors. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2004 : 04:03:49
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| The main thing that seems cruel to me is the loss of memories and identity that the individual loses when they die. To me that is the worst fate there is. |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2004 : 04:13:47
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| What do you mean? People who die still have their memories and identity. Heck, the best example would be infamous Captain Fflar of Myth Drannor. He got resurrected like 660 years later and still remembered all of his mortal life (ex. betrothed, best friend, his blade Keryvian) even after spending so much time in Arvandor! |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2004 : 04:40:31
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
What do you mean? People who die still have their memories and identity. Heck, the best example would be infamous Captain Fflar of Myth Drannor. He got resurrected like 660 years later and still remembered all of his mortal life (ex. betrothed, best friend, his blade Keryvian) even after spending so much time in Arvandor!
In 2e, as part of the Wheel/Ring, souls went through the Astral and they lost all of thier memories and the like as they did. Thier memories and the like were stored on the Astral as memory cubes. Some races also managed to snag some of these and sell them. I don't know if this still stands in 3e's FR since the afterlife is now different. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 12 Oct 2004 04:41:07 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2004 : 05:57:42
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| I don't think the souls still go through the Astral Plane, do they? All the dead just automatically get landed in the Fugue before a servant of their deity comes to pick them up. I'm a little rusty on the whole dying thing so I might be wrong. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2004 : 06:37:51
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I don't think the souls still go through the Astral Plane, do they? All the dead just automatically get landed in the Fugue before a servant of their deity comes to pick them up. I'm a little rusty on the whole dying thing so I might be wrong.
I don't think they do either. The Player's Guide says souls travel right from the Prime to the Fugue. The book also says that there are no Astral Pools to the Fugue. It is kinda vague if souls travel through the Astral to the Fugue though. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2004 : 15:24:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wood Elf Ranger
Please do this is very interesting...
I'll get to it tomorrow. My body is still adjusting to "Perth" time...
quote:
... and I can't recall much having been written about it.
Such are the advantages of being a Sage... 
I'm just kidding. It's most information compiled from various tomes and online sources.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Lauzoril
Seeker
Finland
71 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2004 : 22:09:58
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As far as I know, in 2e the dead lost their memories from life because Myrkul believed that would torment them more. I believe Cyric dropped this since he felt the previous gods had little imagination for cruelty.
In Prince of Lies it was revealed that dead remembered their lives on Faerun, as was the case with Gwydion. Same thing happened in the Crucible.
These days I believe the souls go to Fugue Plane to wait being picked up by the envoys of their gods, or being ushered to the City of the Dead.
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"Death to the enemies of Bane."
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2004 : 22:24:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Lauzoril
As far as I know, in 2e the dead lost their memories from life because Myrkul believed that would torment them more. I believe Cyric dropped this since he felt the previous gods had little imagination for cruelty.
In Prince of Lies it was revealed that dead remembered their lives on Faerun, as was the case with Gwydion. Same thing happened in the Crucible.
These days I believe the souls go to Fugue Plane to wait being picked up by the envoys of their gods, or being ushered to the City of the Dead.
Planescape overwrote that novel. Souls went to the outer planes via the Astral and that plane itself drained the memories from them. See the Planescape Astral book. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Do the gods even care?
