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the psychotic seaotter
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Dec 2004 : 23:08:44
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True but I always seen Masks followers as independant cells rather than interconnected. Pertially due to the fact that if one major guild was brought down that took some important priests out the other churches in other cities would not be found out.
In cases where Cities my have close alliances being officially connected to a guils a town over could be dangerous. I'd say if anything it is a very loose organsation rather than tightly laced.
Then again that is just how I always ran them. |
Run run as fast as you can you can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man...
The Arcane Brotherhood, Wizards of the Sword Coast. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2004 : 05:17:54
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Hmm... well, most thieves guilds and criminal organizations often have a priest of Mask at the top, whether as a boss or advisor. They often play a very important role.
However, I agree about the independence, as a certain amount of secrecy is needed even inside the church to protect the higher-ranking members. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2004 : 16:13:05
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Lashan, I wouldn't call the Zhentarim a "small" group. It's one of the largest organization in Faerun with over 10,000 members, okay? That's bigger than most armies...
I first ask where you get the info that it has 10k+ members? If there is a printed book that states it, I am sure that they include proxies and smaller groups that might not know they are in the organization (including the Zhentil Keep army). Perhaps things have changed with the new 3E and the Zhentarium includes all the low level people and there is an army of guys in black with big Z's on thier chests. If things have changed between versions, I think it is a bad decision.
Elf_friend, I do let my players in on the fact that it is the zhentarium behind much mischief, but not at first. It seems to me that it is more exciting when a secret plot is slowly discovered rather then from the get go. Of course, this is only based on my experience and my style of play. My players start off with no knowledge of the Zhentarium, but after a while, they start to suspect that everyone could be part of the plot. |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2004 : 16:13:28
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Lashan, I wouldn't call the Zhentarim a "small" group. It's one of the largest organization in Faerun with over 10,000 members, okay? That's bigger than most armies...
I first ask where you get the info that it has 10k+ members? If there is a printed book that states it, I am sure that they include proxies and smaller groups that might not know they are in the organization (including the Zhentil Keep army). Perhaps things have changed with the new 3E and the Zhentarium includes all the low level people and there is an army of guys in black with big Z's on thier chests. If things have changed between versions, I think it is a bad decision.
Elf_friend, I do let my players in on the fact that it is the zhentarium behind much mischief, but not at first. It seems to me that it is more exciting when a secret plot is slowly discovered rather then from the get go. Of course, this is only based on my experience and my style of play. My players start off with no knowledge of the Zhentarium, but after a while, they start to suspect that everyone could be part of the plot. |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2004 : 17:24:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
[quote]
Elf_friend, I do let my players in on the fact that it is the zhentarium behind much mischief, but not at first. It seems to me that it is more exciting when a secret plot is slowly discovered rather then from the get go.
Ah, I agree completely with that approach. Must have misunderstood your intent. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2004 : 22:59:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Lashan, I wouldn't call the Zhentarim a "small" group. It's one of the largest organization in Faerun with over 10,000 members, okay? That's bigger than most armies...
I first ask where you get the info that it has 10k+ members? If there is a printed book that states it, I am sure that they include proxies and smaller groups that might not know they are in the organization (including the Zhentil Keep army). Perhaps things have changed with the new 3E and the Zhentarium includes all the low level people and there is an army of guys in black with big Z's on thier chests. If things have changed between versions, I think it is a bad decision.
Elf_friend, I do let my players in on the fact that it is the zhentarium behind much mischief, but not at first. It seems to me that it is more exciting when a secret plot is slowly discovered rather then from the get go. Of course, this is only based on my experience and my style of play. My players start off with no knowledge of the Zhentarium, but after a while, they start to suspect that everyone could be part of the plot.
Lashan, that number came straight out of Lords of Darkness. Actually to be exact the sourcebook said, "At least 10000, mainly located in the Moonsea area". The sourcebook doesn't bother counting those nameless lackeys or informants that don't have a real tie to the Zhentarim. I wasn't too surprised by the number, considering Zhentarim isn't just "Zhentil Keep", contrary to what many think. They've got cells in Mulmaster, Voonlar, Yulash, Mintar, Teshwave, Darkhold, Citadel of the Ravens, etc. Then there's also the ones who operate not from direct headquarters, such as independent agents or the beholder allies. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 11:26:50
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quote:
Lashan, that number came straight out of Lords of Darkness. Actually to be exact the sourcebook said, "At least 10000, mainly located in the Moonsea area". The sourcebook doesn't bother counting those nameless lackeys or informants that don't have a real tie to the Zhentarim. I wasn't too surprised by the number, considering Zhentarim isn't just "Zhentil Keep", contrary to what many think. They've got cells in Mulmaster, Voonlar, Yulash, Mintar, Teshwave, Darkhold, Citadel of the Ravens, etc. Then there's also the ones who operate not from direct headquarters, such as independent agents or the beholder allies.
I read the LOD entry and I tend to think that this means 10,000 of available forces. I count this as zhentilar, local thugs, etc. This is where we have a difference of opinion. I see that we won't change each other's mind so I won't argue either point. Thank you for offering your opinion. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 00:03:02
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| I agree. Unless, the sourcebook gives more details on the number, such as maybe a region by region focus on the Zhentarim, it's not possible to get a true and definite answer. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 13:40:39
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I think of the Zhentarim as being similar to Nazi Germany in that they are this big army of black-clad soldiers. They have a palpable presence of evil in the Realms. Yes, some of them are low-level flunkies, some of them guard wharehouses and try to kill off low level party members, these guys are like your everyday Nazi soldier, just a regular guy doing his job. Then you have the higher levels of the Zhentarim, much like the SS. These guys are the badasses, they have survived and risen to the top of the organization. These high level Zhentarim are serious business, and a challenge for high-level parties. Then you have your Zhentarim agents, this is where the secrecy comes in. You never know, there could be a Zhentarim spy in the next room, the next table, or even in your own party.
This is just how the Zhentarim are used in my campaigns, take it or leave it, I'm just throwing it out there.
Red Wizards can be used effectively, as long as you don't overdo it. I played in a campaign not long ago in which I was an agent of the Rundeem Consortium who was trying to break up the Red Wizards' foray into the slave trade down in the Black Jungle. It was a great campaign, I didn't feel like it was a cliche at all.
I've had some memorable games using monks of Bhaal. By using many of the old cliches of women and children disappearing in the night, and bodies disappearing from the local graveyard, the community has lost contact with a temple outside of town etc. I had the group convinced that ther were becoming vampire hunters, only for them to find a cabal of Bhaal worshipping monks who have created an altar from the bodies they exhumed and have been offering living sacrifices, trying to resurrect Bhaal.
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the psychotic seaotter
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2004 : 00:50:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
I think of the Zhentarim as being similar to Nazi Germany in that they are this big army of black-clad soldiers. They have a palpable presence of evil in the Realms. Yes, some of them are low-level flunkies, some of them guard wharehouses and try to kill off low level party members, these guys are like your everyday Nazi soldier, just a regular guy doing his job. Then you have the higher levels of the Zhentarim, much like the SS. These guys are the badasses, they have survived and risen to the top of the organization. These high level Zhentarim are serious business, and a challenge for high-level parties. Then you have your Zhentarim agents, this is where the secrecy comes in. You never know, there could be a Zhentarim spy in the next room, the next table, or even in your own party.
This is just how the Zhentarim are used in my campaigns, take it or leave it, I'm just throwing it out there.
The only downfall is that WOTC screwed the difference betwen the Zhentlar and the Zhantarim up. The Zheltlar would be your shock troops or Nazi soldiers.
Still using the Nazi reference (wich is close ot how I see them but not quite) the Zhentarim would have been the guys in the shadows telling Adolf what to do.
To put it in more modern terms, if you subscribe to conspiracy theory (wich I do not) the Zhentarim wouldbe the Illuminati of the bunch. They guys really in charge but no one knows for sure they exsist.
The best way I have found to run the Zhents as a whole is that the Zhentlar are the most encountered and prominent Zhent force. The Zhentarim however is rarely encountered.
When I do use A Zhentarim agent it is rare that the party either wins or takes the agent alive. As far as 99% of Faerun is concerned the Zhentarim, if even heard of, is a myth. |
Run run as fast as you can you can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man...
The Arcane Brotherhood, Wizards of the Sword Coast. |
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Overused Orginizations?
