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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Oct 2004 : 03:42:34
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I was talking to a friend recently, and it was brought up that groups like the Zhents and the Harpers are a bit too busy in the Realms. I know they're highly influential, but isn't the Harper(Moonstar, ect.) agent good-guy/Zhent(or Cult, or Red Wizard, ect.) villian a bit of a cliche? Are there really that many Harpers? Why do so many character have to be linked to shadowy affiliations? Why aren't temple interests equally mentioned? How about the more politically motivated dragons or similar beings?
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But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2004 : 04:11:52
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Other people have made this same complaint... It does seem to be a bit of a Realms cliché that every villian is a Zhent, and every white hat opposing him is a Harper.
I think, though, that the main reason for that is that those two groups are the first organizations in the Realms to get air time, and they remain the most active ones. Other groups are less known because they either don't operate as openly, like the Moonstars, and/or because their sphere of influence is smaller, like the Twisted Rune. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2004 : 05:44:14
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It is as Wooly had said, the Zhentarim and the Harpers are like the biggest and most active organisations in the Realms. You mentioned politically motivated dragons, and there are some like the silver dragons that form the Talons of Justice. These goodly dragons show up in The Rage but like Wooly had mentioned, these are also the ones that don't operate openly or draw attention.
Also Sourcemaster2, big villains are often used because they are the only ones who can realistically commit large and henious crimes or do Realm-shaking evil acts. I mean, not everyone has a stockpile of magical items or millions of gold pieces to use for evil. For example, let's say there's a plot to takeover the Moonsea area (who am I kidding, there's always one!). Who do you think around that area has the resources and manpower to do such an act? The Zhentarim! Then there's the other question that follows: who do you think has the resources and manpower to stop them? The Harpers! |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2004 : 06:04:02
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And then there is the fanboy aspect to consider as well. People grew up in the realms with the harpers beign there, being idolized(both IC and OOC) and many grew to seemingly worship them.
The same applies with the zhentarim, with all the people that want to be th bad guys(for whatever initially angsty reason) seeing them as the Big Bads, and treating them much as some treat the Harpers.
Quite frankly, harpers sell. And since the Zhentarim are their villainic foil, they are part of the package. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2004 : 10:17:33
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
It is as Wooly had said, the Zhentarim and the Harpers are like the biggest and most active organisations in the Realms. You mentioned politically motivated dragons, and there are some like the silver dragons that form the Talons of Justice. These goodly dragons show up in The Rage but like Wooly had mentioned, these are also the ones that don't operate openly or draw attention.
something i regularly do in my campaigns but have yet to find in any canon(1) material: npc´s with affiliations/connections to powerful monsters.
my reasoning behind that sort of npc and it´s quite high frequency (at least in my campaigns):
every dragon, no matter whether good, neutral or evil sometimes needs things it can not get by raiding caravans, travellers or cities. be it ingenious individuals who design better traps for it´s lair, getting the latest news about which caravan is bound to travel through it´s domain, carrying this-or-that goods, what groups of adventurers (almost guaranteed to carry interesting magic items and other valuables) got wind of the dragons existence or are just by chance within reach, etc.
then there are dragons with arcane abilities. they constantly need spell components, something i really can not imagine the draconic spellcaster procures personally. other dragons might collect certain pieces of art, rare books, plants, etc...
some dragons may be able to shapechange into (demi-)human form and thus interact with civilization by itself, but that leaves it´s lair relatively ungarded... besides: few dragons can afford to stay in a city constantly (to get all the latest important news).
for such tasks, dragons will almost certainly employ others. imho and imc, almost every dragon employs a handful of informants, merchants, trading agents and mercenaries (treasure-hunters, shock troops, thieves, spellcasters,...). most of those people never recognize who or what their employer is, or even that they work for the same being times and again.
the same applies to other powerful AND intelligent monsters like liches, vampires, the phaerimm or the beholder-cities under anauroch and/or myth drannor, members of the twisted rune, etc... some of these monsters are able to charm their "employees" into service, which makes it even easier to handle them.
translated into gameplay: my players often encounter individuals or groups who, should they reveal their current task, seem to work for this- or- that person, procuring rare spell components (which are btw, not only needed by dragons and liches but also by every common spellcaster!), searching for this-or-that artifact, etc.
none of these groups are affiliated with harpers, zhents or red wizards. in the contrary: the pc´s are likely to encounter npc´s hunting for the same enemies, giving them the possibility to combine forces- only to discover after the successful mission that their allies boss is a centuries old green dragon - who just happens to want ALL the spoiles of the adventure for itself. 
(1) quick question regarding canon/cannon: is the latter notation a simple (yet constantly encountered) spelling error or did i just miss it´s meaning? |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2004 : 10:23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
It is as Wooly had said, the Zhentarim and the Harpers are like the biggest and most active organisations in the Realms. You mentioned politically motivated dragons, and there are some like the silver dragons that form the Talons of Justice. These goodly dragons show up in The Rage but like Wooly had mentioned, these are also the ones that don't operate openly or draw attention.
something i regularly do in my campaigns but have yet to find in any canon(1) material: npc´s with affiliations/connections to powerful monsters.
my reasoning behind that sort of npc and it´s quite high frequency (at least in my campaigns):
every dragon, no matter whether good, neutral or evil sometimes needs things it can not get by raiding caravans, travellers or cities. be it ingenious individuals who design better traps for it´s lair, getting the latest news about which caravan is bound to travel through it´s domain, carrying this-or-that goods, what groups of adventurers (almost guaranteed to carry interesting magic items and other valuables) got wind of the dragons existence or are just by chance within reach, etc.
then there are dragons with arcane abilities. they constantly need spell components, something i really can not imagine the draconic spellcaster procures personally. other dragons might collect certain pieces of art, rare books, plants, etc...
some dragons may be able to shapechange into (demi-)human form and thus interact with civilization by itself, but that leaves it´s lair relatively ungarded... besides: few dragons can afford to stay in a city constantly (to get all the latest important news).
for such tasks, dragons will almost certainly employ others. imho and imc, almost every dragon employs a handful of informants, merchants, trading agents and mercenaries (treasure-hunters, shock troops, thieves, spellcasters,...). most of those people never recognize who or what their employer is, or even that they work for the same being times and again.
the same applies to other powerful AND intelligent monsters like liches, vampires, the phaerimm or the beholder-cities under anauroch and/or myth drannor, members of the twisted rune, etc... some of these monsters are able to charm their "employees" into service, which makes it even easier to handle them.
translated into gameplay: my players often encounter individuals or groups who, should they reveal their current task, seem to work for this- or- that person, procuring rare spell components (which are btw, not only needed by dragons and liches but also by every common spellcaster!), searching for this-or-that artifact, etc.
none of these groups are affiliated with harpers, zhents or red wizards. in the contrary: the pc´s are likely to encounter npc´s hunting for the same enemies, giving them the possibility to combine forces- only to discover after the successful mission that their allies boss is a centuries old green dragon - who just happens to want ALL the spoiles of the adventure for itself.
(1) quick question regarding canon/cannon: is the latter notation a simple (yet constantly encountered) spelling error or did i just miss it´s meaning?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2004 : 15:22:25
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
It is as Wooly had said, the Zhentarim and the Harpers are like the biggest and most active organisations in the Realms. You mentioned politically motivated dragons, and there are some like the silver dragons that form the Talons of Justice. These goodly dragons show up in The Rage but like Wooly had mentioned, these are also the ones that don't operate openly or draw attention.
something i regularly do in my campaigns but have yet to find in any canon(1) material: npc´s with affiliations/connections to powerful monsters.
my reasoning behind that sort of npc and it´s quite high frequency (at least in my campaigns):
every dragon, no matter whether good, neutral or evil sometimes needs things it can not get by raiding caravans, travellers or cities. be it ingenious individuals who design better traps for it´s lair, getting the latest news about which caravan is bound to travel through it´s domain, carrying this-or-that goods, what groups of adventurers (almost guaranteed to carry interesting magic items and other valuables) got wind of the dragons existence or are just by chance within reach, etc.
then there are dragons with arcane abilities. they constantly need spell components, something i really can not imagine the draconic spellcaster procures personally. other dragons might collect certain pieces of art, rare books, plants, etc...
some dragons may be able to shapechange into (demi-)human form and thus interact with civilization by itself, but that leaves it´s lair relatively ungarded... besides: few dragons can afford to stay in a city constantly (to get all the latest important news).
for such tasks, dragons will almost certainly employ others. imho and imc, almost every dragon employs a handful of informants, merchants, trading agents and mercenaries (treasure-hunters, shock troops, thieves, spellcasters,...). most of those people never recognize who or what their employer is, or even that they work for the same being times and again.
the same applies to other powerful AND intelligent monsters like liches, vampires, the phaerimm or the beholder-cities under anauroch and/or myth drannor, members of the twisted rune, etc... some of these monsters are able to charm their "employees" into service, which makes it even easier to handle them.
translated into gameplay: my players often encounter individuals or groups who, should they reveal their current task, seem to work for this- or- that person, procuring rare spell components (which are btw, not only needed by dragons and liches but also by every common spellcaster!), searching for this-or-that artifact, etc.
none of these groups are affiliated with harpers, zhents or red wizards. in the contrary: the pc´s are likely to encounter npc´s hunting for the same enemies, giving them the possibility to combine forces- only to discover after the successful mission that their allies boss is a centuries old green dragon - who just happens to want ALL the spoiles of the adventure for itself.
(1) quick question regarding canon/cannon: is the latter notation a simple (yet constantly encountered) spelling error or did i just miss it´s meaning?
That's pretty workable... And it's also in line with at least a couple of the Wyrms of the North, as well. 
"Canon" is the proper spelling. "Cannon" is a very common misspelling. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2004 : 16:03:51
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a sideproject i´ve planned to do for months now but never got the time to begin is a list of "potential employers" for npc´s.
the reasoning behind it is that every npc who has some "gone adventuring in my youth"- background should be able (but not neccesarily inclined) to tell my players a few tangible stories. i´m not very good at winging such answers: i fear that after the next couple of unexpected(1) queries of this kind, one "we´ve been killing orcs, scouring a dungeon and finally slew a dragon" - kind of story too much will kill any credibility that poor npc should have.
(1) those queries ALWAYS seem to come unexpected. i have accepted that now and try to invent some of the background details during the npc´s creation, but often npc´s are created on the fly or i stumble over someone i´ve not yet detailed; this happens most often during city-based adventures where my players are free to go wherever their interest leads them. even a quite small city like tilverton in 1370 dr with 11k people has way too many npc´s to handle. not only the "stationary" ones like shopkeepers but in particular wandering folks like other adventuring groups...
the alternative is to say "[name of npc] tells you something about his past adventures and you all have a nice evening of storytelling". - horrible!
do you think this is interesting enough to open a new scroll for such a list (or to collect ideas right here - of course only with permission from sourcemaster2 who penned the first lines on this scroll)? i´ll see it as something like an "bbeg-behind-the-scenes - postfest" if you like.
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Edited by - tauster on 04 Oct 2004 16:06:38 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2004 : 16:47:44
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
do you think this is interesting enough to open a new scroll for such a list (or to collect ideas right here - of course only with permission from sourcemaster2 who penned the first lines on this scroll)? i´ll see it as something like an "bbeg-behind-the-scenes - postfest" if you like.
Sure, I think a NPC backstory thread could be interesting... |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2004 : 16:40:02
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I absolutely agree with the orginal poster. In fact, I thought this was someone making a new post on an old thread I did a few months ago! I agree that many of the organizations get overly used.
What I do with the zhentarium is to limit them to a small, but secret society. There are always local evil gangs, warlords, power brokers, and cabals. I just add that there is usually a small zhentarium connection at the top. Most people don't even know much about the Black Network. Most of the foot soldiers don't even know that they work for them. These guys are like puppet masters with minor, local evil groupings. That's how I play them and it has worked for me. You never see (in my games) troops of zhentarium foot solidiers. They don't exist.
There is, in my game, a difference between the zhentarium and the Zhentil Keep military. |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2004 : 16:46:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
There is, in my game, a difference between the zhentarium and the Zhentil Keep military.
Lashan, does this mean that you stick with the old organization of having the Zhentilar as the Zhentil Keep military and the Zhentarim as the actual illicit Black Network? I much prefered this hierarchy and organization and still use it today in my campaign. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Edited by - Lord Rad on 14 Oct 2004 16:46:40 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2004 : 18:05:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's the way they're supposed to be used, I always thought...
I believe the Zhentilar are no longer refered to as such and the Zhentarim now run the military from within. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2004 : 15:50:14
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Yes, the old way or even the correct way. That's the way I play it. It never seems that anyone else seems to actually play that way. I always hapen to see a group of low level zhentarium thugs as guards. There aren't any low level zhentarium thugs! Or foot soliders! Or, there aren't suppose to be any.
I think in my last game, the players only met 2 or 3 Zhentarium agents in the whole campaign. They didn't even know they were zhentarium until after they were dead, either. It was quite interesting, though, that one agent played the party off against another agent, in an attempt to further his own plans! It was quite a suprise to the party that all seemingly random bandit groups, Rot Grubs, evil wizards, and monsters were part of a larger plot by some Black Network. It kinda freaked them out a bit, too. |
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the psychotic seaotter
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2004 : 23:00:16
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I have been been keeping the Zhentarim seperate from the main body of Zhents for some time now. I also have things set up where only a few know the truth about the Zhentarim and they are the upper tiers of the Harpers and various rulers whom the Harpers have told.
As far as the common folk and lower level adventurers go the Zhentarim doesn't exist or is considered an 'urban legend' or 'conspiracy theory'.
The Zhentilar are known and feared however due to recent problems in the Zhentarim the Zhent army have lost almost all of thier holdings in the NW areas of Faerun.
I don't thing they are overused if they are used right and not as bumbling bad guys as many have used them.
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Run run as fast as you can you can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man...
The Arcane Brotherhood, Wizards of the Sword Coast. |
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Shadewalker
Acolyte
Switzerland
5 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2004 : 10:37:13
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At least the evil organisations, I know a few who have a lot of money and manpower.
The reason, why the Zhents are the most known, ss that other evil organisations (like the church of Shar, Red Wizards) act more in the shadows, not this open like the zhents.
And then, there are other groups who are located on one special place (Drows or Cormanthor / Night Masks).
And I think, the last point is the laziness of the DM. It's like, if I didn't have the LoD, I just wouldn't buy it to look which organisation fits best in on this place, with this mentions etc for the enemies of my group. I would say: "There is a castle of the Zhents", cause they always fit in, they are everywhere...
I think, these are the main reasons why these both organisations are the best known. |
The trouble with being a god is, that you have no one to pray to! |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2004 : 15:33:57
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| Shadewalker, I believe that the zhents working in the open is due to a lazy DM. The way I believe that they SHOULD be played is in the shadows, like all the other organizations. The Black Network is really a small group of people who use others around them to accomplish what they want. The muscle for the zhentarium is either the zhentilar at home or through gangs, bandits, and other proxies outside of lands controled by Zhentil Keep. The idea is that one or a few zhentarium agents hire local help (who are clueless as to what is really going on) to accomplish the local tasks. It's not like there is an army of zhentarium soliders with big Z's on their chest waiting to clim the ranks of the secret society ladder. Unless there is some incriminating evidence, the party might not even know that the local bad guy is a zhentarium! |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2004 : 00:07:45
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| Lashan, I wouldn't call the Zhentarim a "small" group. It's one of the largest organization in Faerun with over 10,000 members, okay? That's bigger than most armies... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Lina
Senior Scribe
Australia
469 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2004 : 10:00:17
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| Zhents and Harpers are the most known and influential groups in the realms cos they have the manpower and money. The Red Wizards of Thay are another widely known influential group, not as large but what they lack in numbers, magic and powerful political connection make up for it. |
“Darkness beyond twilight, crimson beyond blood that flows! Buried in the flow of time. In thy great name. I pledge myself to darkness. All the fools who stand in our way shall be destroyed…by the power you and I possess! DRAGON SLAVE!!!â€
"Thieves? Ah, such an ugly word... look upon them as the most honest sort of merchant."
-Oglar the Thieflord |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2004 : 16:14:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
Shadewalker, I believe that the zhents working in the open is due to a lazy DM. The way I believe that they SHOULD be played is in the shadows, like all the other organizations. The Black Network is really a small group of people who use others around them to accomplish what they want. The muscle for the zhentarium is either the zhentilar at home or through gangs, bandits, and other proxies outside of lands controled by Zhentil Keep. The idea is that one or a few zhentarium agents hire local help (who are clueless as to what is really going on) to accomplish the local tasks. It's not like there is an army of zhentarium soliders with big Z's on their chest waiting to clim the ranks of the secret society ladder. Unless there is some incriminating evidence, the party might not even know that the local bad guy is a zhentarium!
YMMV of course. I think it's kind of pointless to use an organization and never ever let on to your players that that is the target of their ire. I think you can let on in stages as to who the big baddies are and you should. Otherwise the PC's are just floundering in the darkness with no purpose other than defeating the next bad guy to come around. |
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KingOfThieves
Acolyte
Denmark
3 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2004 : 15:38:06
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Other great organizations with money and manpower are:
The Kraken Society (pirates and smugglers)
The Iron Throne (Slavers and criminals just like the Zhents)
The Pirates of the Sea of Fallen Stars/Sword coast
Various Temples (Shar, Mask, Bane)
The Arcane Brotherhood (Luskan)
The Cult of the Dragon
The City of Shade
And of course my new favorite:
The Scaled Ones (Sharruks) from the Serpent Kingdoms book. |
The GM's Rule of Three:
1) Your PCs will ALWAYS think of something you didn't!
2) They will ALWAYS get themselves into trouble!
3) If they invent a BETTER plot than you; don't be afraid to steal it! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2004 : 15:45:38
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quote:
Originally posted by KingOfThieves
Other great organizations with money and manpower are:
The Kraken Society (pirates and smugglers)
The Iron Throne (Slavers and criminals just like the Zhents)
The Pirates of the Sea of Fallen Stars/Sword coast
Various Temples (Shar, Mask, Bane)
The Arcane Brotherhood (Luskan)
The Cult of the Dragon
The City of Shade
And of course my new favorite:
The Scaled Ones (Sharruks) from the Serpent Kingdoms book.
Don't forget the Twisted Rune, the Rundeen, and the Tel'Teukiira. The Tel'Teukiira are my personal fave. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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the psychotic seaotter
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2004 : 17:35:24
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I know I am personally using the Church of Shar and the Iron Throne in my next few games I have a good plot going with them that may shake my world up a bit.
I still use the Zhents but since I am playing about 3-4 years after the ToT they are currently not as effective as they were since they are focusing on internal problems. |
Run run as fast as you can you can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man...
The Arcane Brotherhood, Wizards of the Sword Coast. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2004 : 17:40:34
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quote:
Originally posted by the psychotic seaotter
I know I am personally using the Church of Shar and the Iron Throne in my next few games I have a good plot going with them that may shake my world up a bit.
Oh, how? Details, details, don't be a tease. 
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the psychotic seaotter
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2004 : 18:05:55
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I'll give it to you in a nutshell since we may got Off topic with it so if you want to know more e-mail or PM me. 
Basically the Church of Shar has been reciveing interesting instructions and some of them are to assist Lathanders church. At the same time the Iron Throne sees a possibility to take some of the Zhnets holdings since they have been weakened by the current strife between Cyricists and Banites.
Their first sucess has happened when they personally armed a force out of Secomber to remove the Zhents from Llorkh and Loudwater. This opened them up to set up new trade in the cities and solidfy thier power.
Meanwhile...
Shar has been tempting a certain master of Darkhold into coming over to the Shadow Weave. She has made sure certian members of the staff are her priests and they have been swaying Semmemon to beliveing a Cyric controlled Zhentarim would be a disaster. Her goal here is to make Semmemon her chosen and beging making Chosen of Shar to combat the Chosen of Mystra.
Furthermore her helping of Lathanders Church is directly related to her spies convicing him to start the incantations that resulted in the DC.
Shar has a few goals that will take time to develop. I plan on taking this from around 1363-1372 and change some events to my liking.
Just in case your wondering this is Shars Plans:
1. Create Chosen of Shar
2. Use the Iron Throne to further weaken the Zhents for Semmemon to take over.
3. Create a Shadow Weave version of Spellfire (nicknamed Darkfire)
4. Tempt Velsharoon over to the Shadoweave
5. Destroy Mystra and take the magic portfolio as a slap in the face to Selune and give Shar an udeniable advantage in their eternal conflict.
6. Have Lathander recreate the DC and use her new power to subjucate the pantheon to her will.
Yeah kinda cheesey but I need a few plans in case the PCs mess some of them up.
I'm still fleshing some of this out but I have laid the groundwork for some of this in my last few games. Needless to say I think the players will be surprised. |
Run run as fast as you can you can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man...
The Arcane Brotherhood, Wizards of the Sword Coast. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2004 : 23:12:46
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| Sounds interesting, but how is Shar going to convince Lathander to do such a thing? They are so opposite that I'm surprised Lathander would even talk to her. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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the psychotic seaotter
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2004 : 01:03:52
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Sounds interesting, but how is Shar going to convince Lathander to do such a thing? They are so opposite that I'm surprised Lathander would even talk to her.
She won't say a thing however certain suggestions will appear to him that will make him think it is time to try again. The best part is she would also let Helm know what was up when the time was right. |
Run run as fast as you can you can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man...
The Arcane Brotherhood, Wizards of the Sword Coast. |
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Blayke
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2004 : 14:23:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
I was talking to a friend recently, and it was brought up that groups like the Zhents and the Harpers are a bit too busy in the Realms. I know they're highly influential, but isn't the Harper(Moonstar, ect.) agent good-guy/Zhent(or Cult, or Red Wizard, ect.) villian a bit of a cliche? Are there really that many Harpers? Why do so many character have to be linked to shadowy affiliations? Why aren't temple interests equally mentioned? How about the more politically motivated dragons or similar beings?
For myself in running the realms, I often use Harpers and the Zhentariam as a introduction to the realms to players that have never experienced FR before. Call it a introductory reference point if you want.
Is it a bit of a cliche? IMHO without a doubt. Yet it is a very well thought out cliche that many players often look for in a new campaign/world (not saying FR is new but it is new for players that have never experienced FR before).
Are there really that many Harpers? Considering the nature of the orginization (being so secretive even to existing members) I dont find it unlikely at all.
"Why do so many character have to be linked to shadowy affiliations?"
IMHO that is a gift for a DM in a FR campaign. Every DM has a different style and one potential plot device may not be as attractive as another...thus the multitude of options. And that is just reason,there are many more imo but I am not sure I could/want to list all of them here.
"Why aren't temple interests equally mentioned?"
I agree somewhat that temple interest are not as fleshed out as much as the interest of the more popular orginazations. But they are there...but as I said they arent as fleshed out...they exist but its up to the DM to give them more depth.
"How about the more politically motivated dragons or similar beings?"
Perhaps you should attempt to aquire more source material. Please take no offense to this but I say it out of experience. I play a 3E game but have a lot of FR source material from my ole 1e and 2e games...and even after running a few 3e games I kept buying used FR campaign source material.
The things you are looking for do exist but you either havent seen them yet or its not as in depth as perhaps you want (or they are out of print in which case I reccomend shopping around for used items through the internet or local gaming shops)...and for the lack of depth I have found many FR novels have fleshed out some of the less detailed politically motivated beings/orginazations in FR.
I hope that helps and if I not I humbly apologize for my lack of conveying it in written word. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2004 : 16:54:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Blayke
"Why aren't temple interests equally mentioned?"
I agree somewhat that temple interest are not as fleshed out as much as the interest of the more popular orginazations. But they are there...but as I said they arent as fleshed out...they exist but its up to the DM to give them more depth.
The churches of evil gods such as Shar, Bane, and Cyric have been given the spotlight in Lord of Darkness.
I agree with what you say about temple interests, Blayke. Some people think that churches should act and respond like the other major organizations such as the Zhentarims or the Harpers. Unlike the other organizations, the churches do not focus in one specific region (Zhentarim in the Moonseas, Red Wizards in Thay) but have them everywhere on Faerun to spread their influence and the words of their gods. You would rarely see a whole army of priests and churchmen of Bane, but a maybe a couple of clerics devoted to the Lord of Strife in an army. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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the psychotic seaotter
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2004 : 20:55:59
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To expand on that I would say you need to look how each church's dogma is.
Shar's church would not act in the open. Her Clerics and worshipors would be working behind the scenes, possibly posing as advisors, shopkeepers or even teachers at a magic academy.
Whereas Banes Clergy may actually take roles in armies or in leadership to further their gods influence.
The churches like Mask's church would only be effective in one town, city or minor region.
I used to not like Lords of Darkness but it did present some excellent alternitives to useing the Zhents all the time. In fact I wish they would do one on the good orgs to show us alternitives to the Harpers and other large orgs.
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Run run as fast as you can you can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man...
The Arcane Brotherhood, Wizards of the Sword Coast. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2004 : 22:52:04
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psychotic seaotter, I wouldn't say that the Church of Mask is just effective in one city. They are different than most of the other churches in Faerun, but similar to the relationship of the Zhentarim and the Church of Bane.
If you read about where most of the Shadowlord's worshipers and influence are, it's mostly in thieves guilds and criminal organizations around the Realms. For example, Mask's largest temple is in Teflamn, and it's also the guildhouse for the Shadowmasters of Teflamn. The Shadowlord also has a huge influence in Amn, mostly Athkatla, and that's because of their affliciation with the Shadow Thieves. A large majority of the religious members in the Shadow Thieves follow Mask. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Overused Orginizations?
