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Originally posted by rowwhenn
Timeline :

710 : some saw a gate from Abyss on Port-Ponant and a hord of Tieffelins ( in english ? ) attack the city . The leader is Iyachtu Xvim . He took the throne of Port-Ponant.

734 : Xvim needed to run away from the truth heir, Farnath Ilistar.

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Originally posted by rowwhenn

Timeline in the book "Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting" (3°Edition)

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Originally posted by rowwhenn

My pleasure ; I dislike Xvim , and when you want to fight something , better you know it , better you'll win

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Myself, I liked Xvim. I thought he had much better style than Bane... I was actually disappointed to read of Bane's return.

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Originally posted by Phantom_Lord


Say Wooly, since you're very good at collecting data, do you have any stuff on Xvim or Bane in your little treasure chest?

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Other than what's readily available in various sourcebooks, I've no extra info on Xvim. Off the top of my head, the main sources of info on ol' Xvimmy would be The Ruins of Zhentil Keep boxed set and Faiths & Avatars.

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Originally posted by Phantom_Lord

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Other than what's readily available in various sourcebooks, I've no extra info on Xvim. Off the top of my head, the main sources of info on ol' Xvimmy would be The Ruins of Zhentil Keep boxed set and Faiths & Avatars.

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Thank you, Wooly.

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Originally posted by Phantom_Lord

Wooly, you are indeed right. Xvim fought Storm; they have a sort of Lex Luthor and Superman thing going on.

But I didn't know that Xvim was a prominent character in Tymora's Luck

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Myself, I liked Xvim. I thought he had much better style than Bane... I was actually disappointed to read of Bane's return.

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Originally posted by Neil

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Myself, I liked Xvim. I thought he had much better style than Bane... I was actually disappointed to read of Bane's return.

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'Banite' sounds better than 'Xvimlar'. That, and I really liked Bane, and missed him while he was gone. He was a god with tradition, brains and charisma, although as I understood it, certain TSR policies related to morality in the novels and sourcebooks made him come off a little like Dr. Claw ("I'll get you next time, Gadget! Next time!")

Bringing back Bane in the official products saves me the trouble of doing it myself. ;)

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Originally posted by Phantom_Lord

I needed some comprehensive info on this quasi-power. Pre-ToT of course.

For example, the origins of Xvim are not entirely clear some say his mum was a demon some say she was a goody two shoes paladin that fell head over heels for Bane. He was also a ruler of Westgate for a while!

Anyone with any notes or info on Xvim?

Thanks, much appreciated!

Phantom_Lord

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

One other thing that struck me as interesting: the Black Beast of Bane. It says that, like his son Xvim, the reborn Bane likes manifestations involving evil critters and carnivores. Looking at Faiths & Avatars, that seems to be more of Xvim thing, and not something that Bane 1.0 did all that much. Maybe I'm reading into it because I want to, but that seems to me to be another indication that there is still a lot of Xvim in Bane 2.0. This, of course, supports my two favorite (and opposing) theories of Bane's return -- the "What the hey, I'm back!" theory, or the "Hey, look at me, I'm really Bane, not Xvim!" theory. But I'm prolly just reading too much into it.

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Glad you're having fun speculating. ;-)

--Eric

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The Nar'ysr predicted the deaths of "three who would shake the world," and long afterward this was confirmed with the deaths of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul. (EotSS, p6)

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I've come to question Xvim's "death" in the many years since this discussion. Here's my reasoning, which has been shared in these halls before:

There's a lot of things about Bane's return that just don't quite make sense...

Xvim's followers -- the folks that Xvim already had and wouldn't want to lose -- were the ones that had the vision of Xvim bursting apart and Bane returning. And this vision was accompanied by green flames -- something that Xvim favored.

Bane 1.0 used red and black as his colors. Bane 2.0 uses black and green -- the same colors as Xvim. Bane 2.0 uses an entirely different holy symbol from Bane 1.0, which is quite suggestive by itself. And some of the favored critters Bane 2.0 has used since his return were not used by Bane 1.0 -- but they were used by Xvim.

Now, there are different possible interpretations. One is that Bane 1.0 did indeed return, mostly subsuming his son -- but not entirely. It could be an amalgam of sorts, with bits of Xvim remaining in the mix. It could be a hostile takeover, with the out-of-place things being parts of Xvim that Bane has not been able to overcome (The Sage has noted this as an interpretation of Bane's new holy symbol). It's also possible that Bane 2.0 has entirely subsumed Xvim, but retained some things just to keep Xvim's folks happy.

Now me, I look at this and I think that the Ultimate Tyrant isn't all that if he can't beat his own kid, and that the Ultimate Tyrant does not show strength by catering to others...

So the explanation I favor is that the reason we see so much of Xvim in Bane 2.0 is because Xvim is Bane 2.0. It's not at all uncommon in the Realms for one deity to pick up the name of a fallen deity, and thus grab that other deity's worship -- Shar did it with Ibrandul, and Lolth did it with Moander, for example. Xvim was a newcomer on the deific scene, but if he pretends to be Daddy, he gets Daddy's worshippers and Daddy's prestige -- a huge boon for a lesser power.

Xvim's champion gathered as much of Bane's old power and essence as he could. The followers of Xvim were the only ones who saw Bane's return, with a vision that had Xvim's signature on it. Bane 2.0 has a lot of things in common with Xvim that Bane 1.0 did not, and Xvim stood to gain a lot from pretending to be Bane. Hence, my conclusion: Bane is still dead, and Xvim is pretending to have replaced him.

Also, there's this bit, from a discussion on the Scouring of Shadowdale "supermodule". A designer looked at my theory and did not confirm or deny it. That's not conclusive, obviously, but my theory was not ruled out by a person who would have been in the know, at the time.

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

One other thing that struck me as interesting: the Black Beast of Bane. It says that, like his son Xvim, the reborn Bane likes manifestations involving evil critters and carnivores. Looking at Faiths & Avatars, that seems to be more of Xvim thing, and not something that Bane 1.0 did all that much. Maybe I'm reading into it because I want to, but that seems to me to be another indication that there is still a lot of Xvim in Bane 2.0. This, of course, supports my two favorite (and opposing) theories of Bane's return -- the "What the hey, I'm back!" theory, or the "Hey, look at me, I'm really Bane, not Xvim!" theory. But I'm prolly just reading too much into it.

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Glad you're having fun speculating. ;-)

--Eric

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

That sounds plausible but what about the power that goes with it? Bane was a greater power. Xvim was not. How does that power get bestowed? Just because I can wear my dad's shoes doesn't mean I can use his credit cards.

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Also, that is pretty tricky for someone that hasn't shown that leaning before. You would think one or more of the other gods would just laugh at him if he tried it (unless another greater god helped him pull it off).

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Now Bane just deciding that junior was a means to an end. Oh, yeah. He may of just have kept that stuff to a. make it harder for junior to come back and b. to grab more worshippers easier because mortals are stupid and he didn't want to confuse them.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

That sounds plausible but what about the power that goes with it? Bane was a greater power. Xvim was not. How does that power get bestowed? Just because I can wear my dad's shoes doesn't mean I can use his credit cards.

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Ah, but you can use his credit cards -- just use them online, because no one can see who is entering the data. And that's what Xvim did: he took his dad's credit cards, and knowing no one could prove it wasn't Dad using them, he started using them online.

The power comes from the worship. Getting Bane's old worshippers, *and* his own, meant more power.

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Also, that is pretty tricky for someone that hasn't shown that leaning before. You would think one or more of the other gods would just laugh at him if he tried it (unless another greater god helped him pull it off).

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What do you mean he hadn't shown that leaning before? There was an entire novel where Xvim was posing as another deity, specifically to fool others and get power from it.

And other deities wouldn't laugh, because other deities have done the same thing. Even if they did laugh, what of it? It doesn't matter what the gods believe -- only what the mortals believe.

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Now Bane just deciding that junior was a means to an end. Oh, yeah. He may of just have kept that stuff to a. make it harder for junior to come back and b. to grab more worshippers easier because mortals are stupid and he didn't want to confuse them.

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So Bane became more like a deity he destroyed to stop that deity from coming back? I'm sorry, but I don't even begin to understand how that one works. Especially since that doesn't show strength -- a tyrant crushes his enemies, he doesn't play games to slow them down.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

That sounds plausible but what about the power that goes with it? Bane was a greater power. Xvim was not. How does that power get bestowed? Just because I can wear my dad's shoes doesn't mean I can use his credit cards.

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Ah, but you can use his credit cards -- just use them online, because no one can see who is entering the data. And that's what Xvim did: he took his dad's credit cards, and knowing no one could prove it wasn't Dad using them, he started using them online.

The power comes from the worship. Getting Bane's old worshippers, *and* his own, meant more power.

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Also, that is pretty tricky for someone that hasn't shown that leaning before. You would think one or more of the other gods would just laugh at him if he tried it (unless another greater god helped him pull it off).

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What do you mean he hadn't shown that leaning before? There was an entire novel where Xvim was posing as another deity, specifically to fool others and get power from it.

And other deities wouldn't laugh, because other deities have done the same thing. Even if they did laugh, what of it? It doesn't matter what the gods believe -- only what the mortals believe.

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Now Bane just deciding that junior was a means to an end. Oh, yeah. He may of just have kept that stuff to a. make it harder for junior to come back and b. to grab more worshippers easier because mortals are stupid and he didn't want to confuse them.

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So Bane became more like a deity he destroyed to stop that deity from coming back? I'm sorry, but I don't even begin to understand how that one works. Especially since that doesn't show strength -- a tyrant crushes his enemies, he doesn't play games to slow them down.

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Originally posted by Misereor


Regarding Cpthero2's insurance policy hypothesis:

There is one interesting bit in one of the Storm Silverhand novels. I forget the name because it was many years ago I read it, but it was some type of murder mystery that had a shard of Bane as the culprit.

When Storm tred to examine the shard, she discovered only that it was a fragment of someone that had once been a mortal man, and was so ashamed of his past that the shard committed suicide rather than let Storm find out anything more.

If Cpthero2 is correct, could the change in manifestation to become more like Xvim maybe be a tactic of Bane's to divest himself of any remains of his mortality?

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Ok, I'm announcing from the outset... going out on a limb here with some of the ideas we've been throwing around the last year or two.

We've been wondering about three tyrannical entities... Bane, Xvim, and Gilgeam.... since the sundering and the last 2 brimstone angels novels. Gilgeam appears to be returned according to the novel, but he calls himself the "Son of Victory" instead of the "Father of Victory". He's also very weak and seemingly at least somewhat dependent on an item for his power. Still he professes to be Gilgeam, and people believe him.

We had been discussing the idea that where Mourktar WAS is all water during 4th edition, and that that area may have transferred to Abeir (the only indication otherwise is a RLB's novel which has them approaching a city CALLED Mourktar... which may be a "new" city established in the last century by survivors of vanished Mourktar within the remaining bounds of Threskel... I say new, because it may be 80 years old). In Mourktar was "the largest temple of Bane", but one which favored the colors of Green and Black, which were Xvim's traditional colors.


So, what if prior to the spellplague, Xvim HAD been trying to take over his father's shoes, then the spellplague happened. Perhaps it was original Bane "left behind"/"returned" to Toril, much as how Amaunator and other gods "returned"... and Xvim went to Abeir. Xvim then begins posing as Gilgeam to a displaced Untheric population. It should also be noted, Xvim is half-demonic, and the army that "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" is leading is supported by demons. Leading into this hypothesis is the idea that the novels indicate that Enlil sees something familiar in "Gilgeam", but also something different. If Xvim were to inhabit Gilgeam's former god flesh that might create this strange mix.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by rowwhenn

My pleasure ; I dislike Xvim , and when you want to fight something , better you know it , better you'll win

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Myself, I liked Xvim. I thought he had much better style than Bane... I was actually disappointed to read of Bane's return.

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Originally posted by Phantom_Lord

I needed some comprehensive info on this quasi-power. Pre-ToT of course.

For example, the origins of Xvim are not entirely clear some say his mum was a demon some say she was a goody two shoes paladin that fell head over heels for Bane. He was also a ruler of Westgate for a while!

Anyone with any notes or info on Xvim?

Thanks, much appreciated!

Phantom_Lord

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Originally posted by Neil

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Myself, I liked Xvim. I thought he had much better style than Bane... I was actually disappointed to read of Bane's return.

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'Banite' sounds better than 'Xvimlar'. That, and I really liked Bane, and missed him while he was gone. He was a god with tradition, brains and charisma, although as I understood it, certain TSR policies related to morality in the novels and sourcebooks made him come off a little like Dr. Claw ("I'll get you next time, Gadget! Next time!")

Bringing back Bane in the official products saves me the trouble of doing it myself. ;)

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