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 Augury 16 - The Phoenix Prophecies: An answer?
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cpthero2
Great Reader

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Posted - 27 Sep 2018 :  17:33:22  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Good morning everyone,

I come before you all as I feel I may have some insight into Augury 16, that the Nar'ysr of the Abbalayar produced in Calimshan many centuries ago. I'll quote it first so that we have that starting point.

quote:
The sun shall rise to guide the outcasts home to their fathers' houses to claim seats at the table once more. This dawn brings prosperity for some, ruin for others, and while the sun is bright, the land lies swathed in darkness by another's hand.


I posit the following:
  • The Year for this Augury is 1372DR, The Year of Wild Magic
  • Cyric is the rising sun: the Dark Sun
  • The outcasts are the Netherese of the Shade Enclave
  • The seats to claim once more are of the Netherese government...now gone
  • The prosperous dawn is of Sembia, who clearly benefits
  • Ruin for others is the ruin of Tilverton when the Netherese destroy them
  • The bright sun refers to the melting ice in the Anauroch and the drought
  • The land in darkness refers to the return of the Shade Enclave from the Plane of Shadow and their domination


It really seems that this could be the meaning of the 16th Augury of Nar'ysr, but I'd love to discuss this at length. I realize it is a big deal to consider the identification of one of the Nar'ysrs prophecies.

Citations:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Thultanthar
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Telamont_Tanthul
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10857 [Netherese Government]
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18348&whichpage=2 [Myrkul]
Grand History of the Realms
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Malik_el_Sami
http://petesfr.wikidot.com/karse-stone

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring

The Masked Mage
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Posted - 27 Sep 2018 :  17:43:35  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Several problems: 1) They were not outcasts. 2) They did not follow the Sun, nor reclaim seats at their father's table.

I would say that "the land lies swathed in darkness by another's hand" could certainly be a reference to Shade Enclave.
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cpthero2
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Posted - 27 Sep 2018 :  18:02:14  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Mage,

Thank you for the quick response. I argue (academically I hope it is understood, not of a malign mind) that the outcasts aspect was one to be taken within the confines of augury. Augury is one of the most vague of divinations, and are known to be "...among the most enigmatic prophecies ever seen." (Empires of the Shining Sea, p7) Certainly, with the acknowledgment of such enigma being ordained from the onset, it is reasonable to understand that literal interpretations are unlikely to be the result of actions witnessed.

As to following the sun, I thought on this quite a bit. I expected Amaunator or Lathander to be the ones to be involved. However, when I saw that the Seraph of Lies was involved with the Karsestone, while seeking the tome, it seemed that the sun, was likely the Dark Sun of Cyric.

As to the reclamation of seats at the fathers' table, I see this is an acknowledgment of those who came before the current times of the Realms (the Netherese would be quite old to the current 1372DR inhabitants of the Realms) taking back their seats of power. The Silver and Gold Ages of the Netherese Empire was said to be governed by council, not unlike what is seen in Halruaa as a magocracy. Taking those seats would be taking back their power, and their empire to restart it.

Thoughts on that?

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Several problems: 1) They were not outcasts. 2) They did not follow the Sun, nor reclaim seats at their father's table.

I would say that "the land lies swathed in darkness by another's hand" could certainly be a reference to Shade Enclave.


Higher Atlar
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 27 Sep 2018 :  18:14:34  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The leader of the Shadowvar was one of those ancient Netherese, and he did not seek to restore the old Netherese council - he desired a restoration of Netheril in name only, with him its unquestioned master.

While the seraph of lies did have some interaction with the Karse stone, he did not 1)cause the breach of the Sharn wall, or 2) lead the Shadowvar to Karse, or 3) lead in the ritual that Returned the Enclave.

As such, I can't see any way to say that Cyric guided them.
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 27 Sep 2018 :  18:17:44  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Most importantly, it says "the sun shall rise... and while bright..."

The Dark sun was [i]never[i] bright.
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 27 Sep 2018 :  18:20:41  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Most importantly, it says "the sun shall rise... and while bright..."

The Dark sun was never bright.

Edited by - The Masked Mage on 27 Sep 2018 18:21:27
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 27 Sep 2018 :  19:41:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would say Sembia didn't really benefit from being taken over by Shade, myself.

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cpthero2
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Posted - 27 Sep 2018 :  19:57:59  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Mage,

I completely appreciate that perspective. Though, I wonder if (in associating deception and Cyric with it) Telamont Thantul's (because remember, many divinations were done that determined the level of destruction against the Empire) intent was to deceive his fellow Netherese leaders to follow him as a group (much like Emperor Palpatine did in the Senate, sorry for the Star Wars reference, but it makes sense), and then start wiping them out one at a time. Eventually he could consolidate power that way. All done under the bright sun of Cyric.

As to the Sharn Wall destruction, that definitely was Galaeron Nihmedu that had led to that happening. However, the very enigma surrounding the 16th Augury means that it has to be worked through. I don't see the Sharn Wall as being a necessary element to the Augury being true. Certainly the Phaerimm were a consequence of that Sharn Wall going down and there was interaction between the Netherese and the Phaerimm, but I am uncertain how the Sharn Wall plays in. I fully admit though, I may not be recalling something about the Sharn Wall that may make it inextricably important.

As to the Karsestone, I just feel this is a linking of Cyric to the event. I believe this because remember that the previous year, was the Trial of Cyric the Mad. He was found guilty, of essentially, failing his duties by not spreading strife and discord by being innocent by insanity. It seems like, the very next year, he jumped into a powerhouse in an attempt to resit himself as sowing major discord: stealing the Karsestone potentially, and using that to generate all manner of foul outcomes. It makes sense, especially when he sends his Chosen to get the job done. There is nothing in history that details this, but look at Cyric's history...the deity is the biggest felon of all! haha

As to the Ritual of the Enclave, I agree that there is nothing overt, but how often is deception overt? There is no doubt regarding Telamont Thantul conducting the ritual. That being said, if the Dark Sun were behind such treachery, a mere half of one year later after his deific trial for what amounts to dereliction of duty, it stands to reason that he would be looking to make a name for himself in a big way. What better way to sow discord and strife by destroying towns (Tilverton), and melting the ice caps, among other actions taken? Even Waterdeep under the leadership of the Blackstaff sent an army to meet the Netherese.

Thoughts? [I also want to just state for posterity, that I hope this only comes across as being academic in pursuit and not anything aggressively negative]

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

The leader of the Shadowvar was one of those ancient Netherese, and he did not seek to restore the old Netherese council - he desired a restoration of Netheril in name only, with him its unquestioned master.

While the seraph of lies did have some interaction with the Karse stone, he did not 1)cause the breach of the Sharn wall, or 2) lead the Shadowvar to Karse, or 3) lead in the ritual that Returned the Enclave.

As such, I can't see any way to say that Cyric guided them.


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
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Posted - 27 Sep 2018 :  20:00:44  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Mage,

As to "the sun shall rise... and while bright...", Cyric's sun, in his own description is described as having an, "...unholy radiance of the Dark Sun" that "...draws power-hungry mortals like moths to a flame and then inexorably consumes then." (Faiths and Pantheons, p20)

Radiance is a synonym for brilliant, or bright.

Thoughts?

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Most importantly, it says "the sun shall rise... and while bright..."

The Dark sun was [i]never[i] bright.


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
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Posted - 27 Sep 2018 :  20:13:08  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

I very much appreciate your reply to this matter: thank you!

As to Sembia really not benefiting from this issue, I have to humbly disagree. Prior to Uktar 11th, 1374, unrest had been fomenting (since it is reasonable to assume that civil war doesn't just pop up quickly, I feel) in Sembia. What a time for (in 1372DR) Sembia to try and seek assistance from such a powerful ally as the Netherese? Sure, we know now that that didn't help them, but in the moment when the rulers of Sembia are trying to maintain power, this seems quite reasonable that they would seek power from the most powerful, and that certainly was the Netherese as of that date.

Thoughts?

Best regards as always,



quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I would say Sembia didn't really benefit from being taken over by Shade, myself.


Higher Atlar
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 27 Sep 2018 :  22:03:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rulers trying to stay in power don't ask to be invaded and conquered. That kinda defeats the purpose.

And it can be reasonably assumed that after being conquered, some of the money that would have flowed into Sembian pockets was going into Shadovar pockets, instead. This would not be to Sembia's benefit, and having their capital turned into a shadowy pit of the undead would also not be considered beneficial, by most folks.

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cpthero2
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Posted - 27 Sep 2018 :  22:26:36  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

I can certainly appreciate that point, and it of course makes perfect sense. However, I feel there may be an example that is helpful from our real world (unfortunately). I should clarify something though really quick in the event I was (and it seems I may have been) unsophisticated in my reply. I didn't mean to imply that Sembia was looking to be invaded. Rather, I feel they realized, as with Tilverton being obliterated, that they would need figure something out, or risk being annihilated as well. I feel that Sembia effectively tried to kill two birds with one stone in that situation.

The real world example I speak of is the Vichy French, headed by Marshall Phillipe Petain. They knew they were going to be conquered, so they (in a very simplified example) capitulated and tried to get along, rather than get the brunt of what they knew the Germans could bring to them.

I feel that the situation is pretty similar between the Vichy and Sembia (I never thought I would use those countries together in my life, haha.

Best regards,


quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Rulers trying to stay in power don't ask to be invaded and conquered. That kinda defeats the purpose.

And it can be reasonably assumed that after being conquered, some of the money that would have flowed into Sembian pockets was going into Shadovar pockets, instead. This would not be to Sembia's benefit, and having their capital turned into a shadowy pit of the undead would also not be considered beneficial, by most folks.


Higher Atlar
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cpthero2
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Posted - 11 Sep 2020 :  04:18:27  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

Bumping this a bit to revitalize it. I love the Phoenix Prophecies greatly!

Thoughts on my previous response to your last reply?

On another topic: how have you been faring during the pandemic, good Master of the Library? :)

Best regard as always,




Higher Atlar
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Returnip
Learned Scribe

221 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2020 :  13:21:54  Show Profile Send Returnip a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Good morning everyone,


And to you, Great Reader cpthero2.

quote:
The sun shall rise to guide the outcasts home to their fathers' houses to claim seats at the table once more. This dawn brings prosperity for some, ruin for others, and while the sun is bright, the land lies swathed in darkness by another's hand.


While I know very little about the Phoenix Prophecies I'll just drop my immediate interpretation of this quote.

I think this augury might refer to Lathander. If you want to go the Netherese route it might be a reference to Lathander being a reincarnation of Amaunator who was a Netherese sun deity. The outcasts he is to guide back to their fathers' house could then be decendants of Low Netheril, or it could be the shades, if we take outcast as meaning "cast out" or "locked out". The City of Shade did try to cross back into the Prime Material Plane after the first test run there, but since Mystra died they were locked out from the Prime Material Plane as it were. The darkness swathing the land is said to be by the hand of another, so not Lathander or the City of Shade. My first guess is Shar, and so she becomes the hurdle that must be overcome for the prophecy to become true.

My two copper pieces.

EDIT: I should add that my above interpretation might mean that the return of Amaunator, reincarnated or not, might foreshadow atonement for the Netherese shades and thus giving them a chance to return to a "place at the table" and reestablish their nation.

On the other hand you have different fingers.

Edited by - Returnip on 14 Dec 2020 14:43:27
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe

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Posted - 14 Dec 2020 :  23:56:54  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Returnip

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Good morning everyone,


And to you, Great Reader cpthero2.

quote:
The sun shall rise to guide the outcasts home to their fathers' houses to claim seats at the table once more. This dawn brings prosperity for some, ruin for others, and while the sun is bright, the land lies swathed in darkness by another's hand.


While I know very little about the Phoenix Prophecies I'll just drop my immediate interpretation of this quote.

I think this augury might refer to Lathander. If you want to go the Netherese route it might be a reference to Lathander being a reincarnation of Amaunator who was a Netherese sun deity. The outcasts he is to guide back to their fathers' house could then be decendants of Low Netheril, or it could be the shades, if we take outcast as meaning "cast out" or "locked out". The City of Shade did try to cross back into the Prime Material Plane after the first test run there, but since Mystra died they were locked out from the Prime Material Plane as it were. The darkness swathing the land is said to be by the hand of another, so not Lathander or the City of Shade. My first guess is Shar, and so she becomes the hurdle that must be overcome for the prophecy to become true.

My two copper pieces.

EDIT: I should add that my above interpretation might mean that the return of Amaunator, reincarnated or not, might foreshadow atonement for the Netherese shades and thus giving them a chance to return to a "place at the table" and reestablish their nation.



It seems that any netherese resurrection that was going on prior to 1490DR has been 'postponed indefinitely' in the re-desertification of the lands of Anauroch. Anaumator and Lathander both getting the free god-pass of post Second Sundering Ao has yet to make any impact on the lore as a whole. I always wonder how it plays out at the table across the world though, wherever it may come up at the table..

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cpthero2
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Posted - 16 Dec 2020 :  05:13:42  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe PattPlays,

I'd like to say I am surprised........., and I would if I could. haha

Best regards,







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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

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Posted - 16 Dec 2020 :  14:57:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

It seems that any netherese resurrection that was going on prior to 1490DR has been 'postponed indefinitely' in the re-desertification of the lands of Anauroch. Anaumator and Lathander both getting the free god-pass of post Second Sundering Ao has yet to make any impact on the lore as a whole. I always wonder how it plays out at the table across the world though, wherever it may come up at the table..



That is if you accept those statements to be true (about Anauroch being a desert again), which I honestly believe to be some accidental mistake by someone (where was that from by the way). By that I don't mean "just make it wrong" mind you, but rather think on how to play with the lore to make both things true. For instance, with the land of the shades fallen, might some of the shadovar attempt some kind of grand mirage spell that reflects the imagery of the desert to those that come upon their lands so that they can rebuild in secrecy? Since I'd imagine not a whole lot of people are trying to enter their territory given where it was located, maybe only SOME folks know the truth?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TheIriaeban
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Posted - 16 Dec 2020 :  18:46:08  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

It seems that any netherese resurrection that was going on prior to 1490DR has been 'postponed indefinitely' in the re-desertification of the lands of Anauroch. Anaumator and Lathander both getting the free god-pass of post Second Sundering Ao has yet to make any impact on the lore as a whole. I always wonder how it plays out at the table across the world though, wherever it may come up at the table..



That is if you accept those statements to be true (about Anauroch being a desert again), which I honestly believe to be some accidental mistake by someone (where was that from by the way). By that I don't mean "just make it wrong" mind you, but rather think on how to play with the lore to make both things true. For instance, with the land of the shades fallen, might some of the shadovar attempt some kind of grand mirage spell that reflects the imagery of the desert to those that come upon their lands so that they can rebuild in secrecy? Since I'd imagine not a whole lot of people are trying to enter their territory given where it was located, maybe only SOME folks know the truth?



That is a good point. Anauroch had it's origin in the magic of the Phaerimms. If the desert is back, wouldn't that mean the Phaerimm would have to be back as well?

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

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Posted - 16 Dec 2020 :  21:10:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

It seems that any netherese resurrection that was going on prior to 1490DR has been 'postponed indefinitely' in the re-desertification of the lands of Anauroch. Anaumator and Lathander both getting the free god-pass of post Second Sundering Ao has yet to make any impact on the lore as a whole. I always wonder how it plays out at the table across the world though, wherever it may come up at the table..



That is if you accept those statements to be true (about Anauroch being a desert again), which I honestly believe to be some accidental mistake by someone (where was that from by the way). By that I don't mean "just make it wrong" mind you, but rather think on how to play with the lore to make both things true. For instance, with the land of the shades fallen, might some of the shadovar attempt some kind of grand mirage spell that reflects the imagery of the desert to those that come upon their lands so that they can rebuild in secrecy? Since I'd imagine not a whole lot of people are trying to enter their territory given where it was located, maybe only SOME folks know the truth?



That is a good point. Anauroch had it's origin in the magic of the Phaerimms. If the desert is back, wouldn't that mean the Phaerimm would have to be back as well?




That's one point, though they can handwavium it away as "the land resetting with the second sundering". Not saying I'd like that, and I'm not exactly sure what the quote is that says that Anauroch is back to being all desert, but several people have said it.
But, exactly how much territory did the shadovar "heal" in the last century? I mean, I know that the majority of the desert was still a desert, so unless there's some statement that says "the lands healed by the netherese have reverted back to desert", I'm pretty sure there's a way to make it not true (and even the above statement can be covered with illusion.... let's face it, the moon's face is hidden... illusion can do a lot).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 16 Dec 2020 :  21:38:38  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

It seems that any netherese resurrection that was going on prior to 1490DR has been 'postponed indefinitely' in the re-desertification of the lands of Anauroch. Anaumator and Lathander both getting the free god-pass of post Second Sundering Ao has yet to make any impact on the lore as a whole. I always wonder how it plays out at the table across the world though, wherever it may come up at the table..



That is if you accept those statements to be true (about Anauroch being a desert again), which I honestly believe to be some accidental mistake by someone (where was that from by the way). By that I don't mean "just make it wrong" mind you, but rather think on how to play with the lore to make both things true. For instance, with the land of the shades fallen, might some of the shadovar attempt some kind of grand mirage spell that reflects the imagery of the desert to those that come upon their lands so that they can rebuild in secrecy? Since I'd imagine not a whole lot of people are trying to enter their territory given where it was located, maybe only SOME folks know the truth?



That is a good point. Anauroch had it's origin in the magic of the Phaerimms. If the desert is back, wouldn't that mean the Phaerimm would have to be back as well?



Not necessarily. It depends on how much the Shades were able to do to reclaim the land. If they were only able to reclaim a small portion before their efforts stopped, then the surrounding desert would have come back not long after they stopped.

Desert land can be reclaimed, but you can't just start in the middle and then just walk away. It has to be a sustained, long-term effort, and it's better to work from less arid areas inward.

The thing to keep in mind is that even with the phaerimm magic out of the picture, desert conditions were going to be there for a long time -- the desert may have been created artificially, but once it got to a certain size, overall conditions in that area were affected enough for it to remain a desert. Removing their magic after decades, even centuries of it blocking humidity isn't going to bring precipitation back -- by that point, weather patterns would have permanently shifted, sustaining the lack of rainfall.

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PattPlays
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Posted - 17 Dec 2020 :  03:03:27  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
..?

Have you all not heard? The Phaerim ARE back, and they brought about the desert the same way they did the last time. It took me a hot minute to recover this information. It's novel lore repackaged into the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide 2015.

quote:
Early in 1487, earthquakes and volcanic eruptions abounded for months, as if the whole world was convulsing. Rumors spread of chasms caused by the Spellplague suddenly vanishing, and stories circulated of known destinations being farther away from one another, as if the world had quietly added miles of wilderness to the distance between them. Word began to spread of places and peoples not heard from since the Spellplague. It became apparent that some of the effects of that terrible time had been reversed. During the year, ships claiming to be from Evermeet, Lantan, and Nimbral- nations thought vanished or destroyed- sailed into ports on the Sword Coast and in the Shining South. Tales spread of the legendary skyships of Halruaa being spotted in southern skies.

No longer engaged in Cormyr, Netheril attacked Myth Drannor by floating the City of Shade over it. In a struggle for control of Myth Drannor's mythal and the Weave itself, the flying capital of Netheril was brought crashing down on Myth Drannor, resulting in the cataclysmic destruction of both. As the year drew to a close, there were nights when the heavens seemed to hang motionless. Throughout much of Faerun, the winter of 1487 and 1488 lasted longer than any on record. The solstices and equinoxes had somehow drifted. Later seasons followed suit, with each starting and ending later than expected. Prayers to the gods for knowledge and mercy seemed to go unacknowledged, apart from the presence of their Chosen.

Although the orcs were defeated in the North, the League of Silver Marches was disbanded in 1488, as former allies blamed one another for failures in the war. Sembia divided into separate city-states only nominally allied with one another. While a handful of settlements survived, the Netherese Empire was no more. The remainder of the Netherese forces battle with the Bedine over control of the Memory Spire, thought to be a tomb of the phaerimm, Netheril's ancient enemies. The battle awakens what turns out to be a hive of the creatures, and they use the life and magic-draining power of the spire against the lands below.


There you go. You should really read through the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide! It's been five years. XD
The Phaerimm are out and in full force in 5e D&D despite nobody talking about them. My current campaign is set in the summer of 1487 and it will be exciting to skirt alongside these lore events and see how much the populace learns about it all. As of the summer, Anauroch is a fresh field as it has been for a century. In under 365 days, it will be a desert again.

I have a Kobold Artificer joining the game who comes from an underground warren south of the High Forest. I built up an interesting backstory about their clan 100 years back, who would have been emerging as a local power on the surface alongside a family of Brass Dragons. The radical reshaping of the environment made the Kobolds' desert-themed stealth and tactics would have been next to useless in a new fresh savannah landscape with more powerful and grassy predators and monsters coming in. They fled back underground and the Brass Dragons escaped into the Thunder Peaks. The Kobolds migrated west over time, and the growing strength of Stone Giants around the city of Lorkh slowly began killing off members of the Brass Dragon line. After the year ends, the rapid re-desertification would cause all of those freshly migrated savannah creatures to be caught up in dangerous dry weather and fleeing the rampage of freshly released Phaerimm monsters. I wonder if the kobolds might migrate back eastward along the old Arramindar roads and if a lone young Brass Dragoness might be able to retake her family's ancestral home east of the Thunder Peaks.

What do you do when the lore supposes that thousands of square miles went from Desert to Lush Fields to Desert again in the span of 100 years? Me, I run with that nonsense. Still, it is ridiculous. I suppose that's just the power of the Phaerimm?

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Edited by - PattPlays on 17 Dec 2020 03:06:10
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cpthero2
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Learned Scribe PattPlays,

First off: thank you for the share as always! :)

Second: thank you for saving me money on 5th. ;)

I kind of like the idea of having Anauroch revert back to non-desert terrain, but I think the soul sucking torture I would have to endure to see that isn't worth it. I think I'll crank up my Tears for Fears and go back to pre-Spellplague. ;)

Best regards,







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PattPlays
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Posted - 17 Dec 2020 :  07:04:02  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Learned Scribe PattPlays,

First off: thank you for the share as always! :)

Second: thank you for saving me money on 5th. ;)

I kind of like the idea of having Anauroch revert back to non-desert terrain, but I think the soul sucking torture I would have to endure to see that isn't worth it. I think I'll crank up my Tears for Fears and go back to pre-Spellplague. ;)

Best regards,









Well what I'm trying to say is that Anauroch was a verdant landscape for one hundred years and then following the long 'Day One Patch' as it were for the Modern Age of Toril it went back to being the same exact desert with Phaerimm that you know and love so, it *is* a desert. The verdant landscape absolutely existed, but exists no longer. Anauroch is a desert, again, just as it was before. There's nothing to oppose your interest past the year 1487 in regards to the ancient lands of Netheril.

EDIT: Ah, I misread your post! Well I'd like to tell you that (and I feel like the only one who notices this but..) 5e actually has a fuzzy starting time! You could technically run a 5e rule game as early as, I don't know, 1484? Run a game prior to the spring of 1488 and you can enjoy a verdant Anauroch like the ancient Netherese would have without needing to be in the 4e rules! If my party were to head east right now, they would see said verdant and incredible region. 5e shows the map of Anauroch being a desert but there are plenty of 5e campaign modules set in the realms that can happen before 1491.

As I see it 5e starts officially with the Attack on Greenest in 1489, but Out of The Abyss and other modules with more flexible start times can be set far earlier. I say if you want to see a green and grassy Anauroch, play 5e and just set it before the Phaerimm attack! You'd likely be the first person ever to actually experience that biome in 5e..

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:


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Edited by - PattPlays on 17 Dec 2020 07:55:01
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 17 Dec 2020 :  13:43:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays


Well what I'm trying to say is that Anauroch was a verdant landscape for one hundred years and then following the long 'Day One Patch' as it were for the Modern Age of Toril it went back to being the same exact desert with Phaerimm that you know and love so, it *is* a desert. The verdant landscape absolutely existed, but exists no longer. Anauroch is a desert, again, just as it was before. There's nothing to oppose your interest past the year 1487 in regards to the ancient lands of Netheril.



Where does it say that the entire desert had been fully restored? Where does it give a date saying this was completed?

As I recall, as soon as people figured out what the Shades were doing there, there was opposition to it.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Dec 2020 15:30:47
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PattPlays
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Posted - 18 Dec 2020 :  04:05:54  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays


Well what I'm trying to say is that Anauroch was a verdant landscape for one hundred years and then following the long 'Day One Patch' as it were for the Modern Age of Toril it went back to being the same exact desert with Phaerimm that you know and love so, it *is* a desert. The verdant landscape absolutely existed, but exists no longer. Anauroch is a desert, again, just as it was before. There's nothing to oppose your interest past the year 1487 in regards to the ancient lands of Netheril.



Where does it say that the entire desert had been fully restored? Where does it give a date saying this was completed?

As I recall, as soon as people figured out what the Shades were doing there, there was opposition to it.



https://media.wizards.com/2015/images/dnd/resources/Sword-Coast-Map_HighRes.jpg

The Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide doesn't give a date officially, but the most recent year it describes is 1489DR. And this map and all others from 5e, which show a completely desertificated Anauroch, are all attributed to the SCAG.

So... in under a year or two, most likely. I know, crazy! Would a whole hive of these ancient magic-sucking entities be able to accomplish this draining that fast? Is there any source on how long it took them the last time they did this?

But yeah. Every 5e map shows a full desert. Had you not seen them yet? I could link a dozen others.

Again, nobody has really done anything with Anauroch in the last 5 years (irl, as in since 2015) as far as I can tell. So this entire narrative hasn't been explored. If a DM wanted to set an adventure in Anauroch around 1488, that DM would be unofficially writing the only descriptions of this event.

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:


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Edited by - PattPlays on 18 Dec 2020 04:12:47
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TheIriaeban
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

https://media.wizards.com/2015/images/dnd/resources/Sword-Coast-Map_HighRes.jpg

The Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide doesn't give a date officially, but the most recent year it describes is 1489DR. And this map and all others from 5e, which show a completely desertificated Anauroch, are all attributed to the SCAG.

So... in under a year or two, most likely. I know, crazy! Would a whole hive of these ancient magic-sucking entities be able to accomplish this draining that fast? Is there any source on how long it took them the last time they did this?

But yeah. Every 5e map shows a full desert. Had you not seen them yet? I could link a dozen others.

Again, nobody has really done anything with Anauroch in the last 5 years (irl, as in since 2015) as far as I can tell. So this entire narrative hasn't been explored. If a DM wanted to set an adventure in Anauroch around 1488, that DM would be unofficially writing the only descriptions of this event.



The phaerimm started casting the spells in -461 DR and it finally stopped spreading in 329 DR when the sharn locked 'em away. That is in the GHoTR.

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PattPlays
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Posted - 18 Dec 2020 :  05:33:11  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

https://media.wizards.com/2015/images/dnd/resources/Sword-Coast-Map_HighRes.jpg

The Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide doesn't give a date officially, but the most recent year it describes is 1489DR. And this map and all others from 5e, which show a completely desertificated Anauroch, are all attributed to the SCAG.

So... in under a year or two, most likely. I know, crazy! Would a whole hive of these ancient magic-sucking entities be able to accomplish this draining that fast? Is there any source on how long it took them the last time they did this?

But yeah. Every 5e map shows a full desert. Had you not seen them yet? I could link a dozen others.

Again, nobody has really done anything with Anauroch in the last 5 years (irl, as in since 2015) as far as I can tell. So this entire narrative hasn't been explored. If a DM wanted to set an adventure in Anauroch around 1488, that DM would be unofficially writing the only descriptions of this event.



The phaerimm started casting the spells in -461 DR and it finally stopped spreading in 329 DR when the sharn locked 'em away. That is in the GHoTR.



Well as I said it's up to DMs how they interpret the desertification of Anauroch in 1488DR. I don't think a single person has played in this region in 5e. So, nobody has called WOTC's bluff on this patch. I'm pretty sure there's nothing to be found on Anauroch except that paragraph when it comes to WOTC's thoughts on the topic.

People who never paid attention to 4th edition probably see the Desert Anauroch map and don't think twice about it because that's the way it has always looked. So if we want to start reasoning this out, we may be the first to even consider doing so on the internet.

From a quick bit of research all signs point to either Elminster, the city of Shade, or the Memory Spire being the distinct cause of the desert taking over in 1488. Maybe details lie in the novels. Maybe details lie unspoken by the developers. Maybe details don't exist. If you want to figure this out, be my guest.

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:


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Edited by - PattPlays on 18 Dec 2020 05:35:11
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Wooly Rupert
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Looking at the FRCG, the map shows that while progress had been made towards reclaiming the desert, it wasn't complete. And the book even states it outright, on page 85: "The Empire of Netheril, long covered by the Great Desert of Anauroch, has been partially restored to the green steppes and verdant forests of its ancient past."

Though we don't get any explanation for the rapid redesertification you reference, I'm going to go back to my earlier explanation rather than rely on WotC's handwavium: reclaiming a desert area is a long-term undertaking. Sure, it looks like the Shades had made some good progress -- but how quickly it was undone would indicate to me that there was a lot of magic at play, holding off the desert conditions until the local environment had changed enough to be self-sustaining. Once the Shades were slapped down, they weren't using their magic to ward off the desert, so it quickly reclaimed its original territory.

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PattPlays
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Posted - 18 Dec 2020 :  06:02:10  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Looking at the FRCG, the map shows that while progress had been made towards reclaiming the desert, it wasn't complete. And the book even states it outright, on page 85: "The Empire of Netheril, long covered by the Great Desert of Anauroch, has been partially restored to the green steppes and verdant forests of its ancient past."

Though we don't get any explanation for the rapid redesertification you reference, I'm going to go back to my earlier explanation rather than rely on WotC's handwavium: reclaiming a desert area is a long-term undertaking. Sure, it looks like the Shades had made some good progress -- but how quickly it was undone would indicate to me that there was a lot of magic at play, holding off the desert conditions until the local environment had changed enough to be self-sustaining. Once the Shades were slapped down, they weren't using their magic to ward off the desert, so it quickly reclaimed its original territory.



This conversation gets incredibly hard to follow when we don't date every instance of "netheril" "anauroch" and "desert" with a year in the Dale Reckoning. I assume you're referring to the 4e FRCG and the state of Anauroch during the Spellplague? I don't know what year the 4e FRGC is set in. The region could look very different from the start to the end of the Century of the Wailing Years. Or maybe it doesn't, I have no clue.

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:


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sleyvas
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Posted - 18 Dec 2020 :  23:56:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

..?

Have you all not heard? The Phaerim ARE back, and they brought about the desert the same way they did the last time. It took me a hot minute to recover this information. It's novel lore repackaged into the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide 2015.

quote:
Early in 1487, earthquakes and volcanic eruptions abounded for months, as if the whole world was convulsing. Rumors spread of chasms caused by the Spellplague suddenly vanishing, and stories circulated of known destinations being farther away from one another, as if the world had quietly added miles of wilderness to the distance between them. Word began to spread of places and peoples not heard from since the Spellplague. It became apparent that some of the effects of that terrible time had been reversed. During the year, ships claiming to be from Evermeet, Lantan, and Nimbral- nations thought vanished or destroyed- sailed into ports on the Sword Coast and in the Shining South. Tales spread of the legendary skyships of Halruaa being spotted in southern skies.

No longer engaged in Cormyr, Netheril attacked Myth Drannor by floating the City of Shade over it. In a struggle for control of Myth Drannor's mythal and the Weave itself, the flying capital of Netheril was brought crashing down on Myth Drannor, resulting in the cataclysmic destruction of both. As the year drew to a close, there were nights when the heavens seemed to hang motionless. Throughout much of Faerun, the winter of 1487 and 1488 lasted longer than any on record. The solstices and equinoxes had somehow drifted. Later seasons followed suit, with each starting and ending later than expected. Prayers to the gods for knowledge and mercy seemed to go unacknowledged, apart from the presence of their Chosen.

Although the orcs were defeated in the North, the League of Silver Marches was disbanded in 1488, as former allies blamed one another for failures in the war. Sembia divided into separate city-states only nominally allied with one another. While a handful of settlements survived, the Netherese Empire was no more. The remainder of the Netherese forces battle with the Bedine over control of the Memory Spire, thought to be a tomb of the phaerimm, Netheril's ancient enemies. The battle awakens what turns out to be a hive of the creatures, and they use the life and magic-draining power of the spire against the lands below.


There you go. You should really read through the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide! It's been five years. XD
The Phaerimm are out and in full force in 5e D&D despite nobody talking about them. My current campaign is set in the summer of 1487 and it will be exciting to skirt alongside these lore events and see how much the populace learns about it all. As of the summer, Anauroch is a fresh field as it has been for a century. In under 365 days, it will be a desert again.

I have a Kobold Artificer joining the game who comes from an underground warren south of the High Forest. I built up an interesting backstory about their clan 100 years back, who would have been emerging as a local power on the surface alongside a family of Brass Dragons. The radical reshaping of the environment made the Kobolds' desert-themed stealth and tactics would have been next to useless in a new fresh savannah landscape with more powerful and grassy predators and monsters coming in. They fled back underground and the Brass Dragons escaped into the Thunder Peaks. The Kobolds migrated west over time, and the growing strength of Stone Giants around the city of Lorkh slowly began killing off members of the Brass Dragon line. After the year ends, the rapid re-desertification would cause all of those freshly migrated savannah creatures to be caught up in dangerous dry weather and fleeing the rampage of freshly released Phaerimm monsters. I wonder if the kobolds might migrate back eastward along the old Arramindar roads and if a lone young Brass Dragoness might be able to retake her family's ancestral home east of the Thunder Peaks.

What do you do when the lore supposes that thousands of square miles went from Desert to Lush Fields to Desert again in the span of 100 years? Me, I run with that nonsense. Still, it is ridiculous. I suppose that's just the power of the Phaerimm?



Firstly, you must realize that you're reading things as a new person, not someone who has read the same stuff over and over and over again for 30 year. So, it gets real old when a single sentence changes things and its surrounded by dozens of lines of nothing new.

That being said, this says that they recast their spells. The original spells didn't happen overnight. In theory, the changes would have had little effect so far. Remember, anauroch grew as big as it did over more than a thousand years. A couple years is nothing. That being said, I don't recall "the memory spire" and I'd wonder what that's about, and is it related to the new stuff in rime of the frostmaiden for resetting things with time.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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cpthero2
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Posted - 17 Feb 2023 :  17:34:18  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Masked Mage,

Olore! I bring information directly from Steven Schend on the topic as of last night (16 Feb 23):

You're quote is directly below, followed by Steve Schend's!

quote:
Several problems: 1) They were not outcasts. 2) They did not follow the Sun, nor reclaim seats at their father's table. I would say that "the land lies swathed in darkness by another's hand" could certainly be a reference to Shade Enclave.


Steve Schend's response:

quote:
StevenSchend — Today at 3:02 AM
That’s a well thought-out interpretation of the prophecy and perfect for your campaign, if you like it dark and full of shade-related conflict? Is it accurate? Yes, as you’ve laid it down; that said, the whole reason the prophecies are vague allows all GMs to make of them what they will, so there’s never one answer to them. Great job!



There we have it! An actual solution to Augury 16! I love stuff like this! :)

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
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