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Phantom_Lord
Seeker
Pakistan
92 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Aug 2004 : 17:39:22
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Just how far away is he from losing it?
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Ponka! Kaddu! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2004 : 17:43:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Phantom_Lord
Just how far away is he from losing it?
In general or do you have a specific event/detail that is making you think Lathander is a few cards short of a full deck? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2004 : 18:41:17
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| If you're referring to the fact that he started the Dawn Cataclysm and is apparently working towards trying again, then I should like to point out that idealism and sanity are not related. One can be highly sane, but still overzealous in pursuing a particular ideal. We certainly have enough examples of that in the real world... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Eccerion
Acolyte
Norway
12 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2004 : 19:32:17
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And Lathander is certanly one of the more zelous Deities on the side of good.
He means well but he just tends to get....carried away |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2004 : 20:43:43
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The only thing that bugs me about Lathander is that the other good deities do not want to side with him or 'encourage' him to do his great project...
The deities of Faerūn have become scared little things since the Times of Trouble, afraid to do anything that would tip their precious little cosmic balance.
Ao should die. He only stifles the gods into really stirring things up for the mortals. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2004 : 21:23:41
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I am so not interested in these revisionist versions of the gods. The egomaniac Dawn Cataclysm-centric Lathander, the imperialist neofascist Helm, Shar of the Shadow Weave.
If Ao is preventing there being even more RSEs, she's doing a good job. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2004 : 22:34:21
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Well, I am not fond of that whole "Dawn Cataclysm" idea either (especially after talking to the writer who made this up), but it seems fairly certain now that this is going to stick around for a while, so better assume that this is canon at this point... unless we get it from FR's high ups that they're going to do away with that whole debacle!  |
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Lysander
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2004 : 00:22:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Well, I am not fond of that whole "Dawn Cataclysm" idea either (especially after talking to the writer who made this up), but it seems fairly certain now that this is going to stick around for a while, so better assume that this is canon at this point... unless we get it from FR's high ups that they're going to do away with that whole debacle!
Is the Dawn Cataclysm chronicled somewhere? I've seen references to it - Lathander's fault, remake Faerun, eliminate evil - but other than the soundbite, is there any meat to this? I'm assuming it's in a novel somewhere, since I haven't read many of them. :)
Faraer - uh, interesting take on some of the deities...
Lysander |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2004 : 04:01:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Lysander
Is the Dawn Cataclysm chronicled somewhere? I've seen references to it - Lathander's fault, remake Faerun, eliminate evil - but other than the soundbite, is there any meat to this? I'm assuming it's in a novel somewhere, since I haven't read many of them. :)
Faraer - uh, interesting take on some of the deities...
Lysander
Lysander,
The Dawn Cataclysm has been the focus of a few threads on this boards. Try either a search to bring them all up or check out this thread as I believe it has some answers for you. |
Edited by - SiriusBlack on 15 Aug 2004 04:04:19 |
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The Blue Sorceress
Learned Scribe
107 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2004 : 06:28:32
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| Lathander is perfectly sane... a little vain at times, certainly, a touch zealous, but perfectly sane. |
Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.
I see your walrus and raise you a carpenter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2004 : 07:02:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Lysander
Is the Dawn Cataclysm chronicled somewhere? I've seen references to it - Lathander's fault, remake Faerun, eliminate evil - but other than the soundbite, is there any meat to this? I'm assuming it's in a novel somewhere, since I haven't read many of them. :)
From what I seem to recall reading someplace, it was just a throw-away line, originally, that some author tossed out. For some reason, people seized on it...
TSR/WotC have a sort of "hands-off" policy concerning it: they won't give any kind of straight answer on it... They won't even give a date for it.
However, I have put together a couple of things. The FRCS, on page 264, says that Tyche's church underwent a schism in 8th Century DR, when people stopped worshipping Tyche and started worshipping Tymora or Beshaba, instead.
Tyche split into Tymora and Beshaba during the Dawn Cataclysm. This is mentioned in a couple of places... So the Dawn Cataclysm must have happened in 8th Century DR -- from 700 to 799 DR, somewhere in there...
However, it's also said that the Dawn Cataclysm presaged the Fall of Myth Drannor. The attacks on the City of Song started in 712, and ended in 714. So that puts the Dawn Cataclysm at the early part of that century.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Lysander
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2004 : 07:02:23
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Lysander
Is the Dawn Cataclysm chronicled somewhere? I've seen references to it - Lathander's fault, remake Faerun, eliminate evil - but other than the soundbite, is there any meat to this? I'm assuming it's in a novel somewhere, since I haven't read many of them. :)
Faraer - uh, interesting take on some of the deities...
Lysander
Lysander,
The Dawn Cataclysm has been the focus of a few threads on this boards. Try either a search to bring them all up or check out this thread as I believe it has some answers for you.
Now I remember reading that.  As The Sage mentioned outlining some more specifics, which I'll try to find, But I remember that now :)
Lysander |
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Eccerion
Acolyte
Norway
12 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2004 : 12:25:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
The only thing that bugs me about Lathander is that the other good deities do not want to side with him or 'encourage' him to do his great project...
The deities of Faerūn have become scared little things since the Times of Trouble, afraid to do anything that would tip their precious little cosmic balance.
Well can you really blame them? before the ToT they were uber powerfull beings who could pretty much do whatever they wanted, only a few mortals every now and then was even a remote threat and mortals in general were inconsequential at best and a mere anoyance at worst.
The big daddy AO lets em know where they stand and makes sure that none of them EVER thinks of messing with the balance again.
Now all of a sudden they are dependant on mortals for not jsut their powers, but their very survival.
So it makes sense for them to keep things under control, though lots of gods like Cyric and Bane are constantly trying to gain more power for themselves, and should one god blow another to bits, AO dosnt really care as long as the deitys portfolio is taken care of.
As for Lathander not getting alot of backing you need to remember that not all the gods of good (most of which are his allies) agree with everything he wants to do, its liek one member of a group suddenly getting up and starting to tell everyone else how things should be and how they should be done, not alot of fun if your one of the "little people" who needs king of the hill Lathander to tell them what to do.
And of course the last time he tried it tyche got split in two, sure they got Tymora, but they also got a new troublemaker in Beshaba, a fact the other gods probly havnt forgotten about. (plus Helm lost his consort because of it so its no wonder he`d be a bit miffed) |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2004 : 18:03:18
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| If the "powers that be" make Lathander try another little stunt again, I just hope he is able to wipe out Cyric and bring back the "old gods" of evil. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2004 : 05:17:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Tyche split into Tymora and Beshaba during the Dawn Cataclysm. This is mentioned in a couple of places... So the Dawn Cataclysm must have happened in 8th Century DR -- from 700 to 799 DR, somewhere in there...
However, it's also said that the Dawn Cataclysm presaged the Fall of Myth Drannor. The attacks on the City of Song started in 712, and ended in 714. So that puts the Dawn Cataclysm at the early part of that century.
That's all a tad simplistic Wooly. There are references to Tyche AFTER the fall of Myth Drannor (Seven Sisters, p.7), other references link the ascension of Azuth with the Dawn Cataclysm, and Ed himself in a few posts here and there has made it clear that some aspects of the church of Tyche continued to think of themselves in that light even after the split into Tymora and Beshaba.
I think it's far simpler to leave the Dawn Cataclysm in its own godly event category and not try to give it meaning in a temporal sense. Considering it was a conflict between the gods, it may have happened millenia ago as mortals reckon time - its effects taking a very long time to filter through.
Similarly, Eric Boyd has postulated that the Dawn Cataclysm occurred "out of time" in the sense that it could have happened at any point in the mortal timeline, but because of its 'otherworldy'-nature, it happened in the mortal realms at a time that doesn't correspond with our concept of how time works. In other words, godly events can't be dated by mortal means - unless such godly events have a mortal interface (i.e. the Time of Troubles).
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Blue Sorceress
Learned Scribe
107 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2004 : 06:23:02
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quote:
I think it's far simpler to leave the Dawn Cataclysm in its own godly event category and not try to give it meaning in a temporal sense. Considering it was a conflict between the gods, it may have happened millenia ago as mortals reckon time - its effects taking a very long time to filter through.
Similarly, Eric Boyd has postulated that the Dawn Cataclysm occurred "out of time" in the sense that it could have happened at any point in the mortal timeline, but because of its 'otherworldy'-nature, it happened in the mortal realms at a time that doesn't correspond with our concept of how time works. In other words, godly events can't be dated by mortal means - unless such godly events have a mortal interface (i.e. the Time of Troubles).
-- George Krashos
I'm a fan of that explanation myself. I rather like the idea of things occuring on "god time" outside and beyond the normal stream of time in such a way that, even if an event was a single act that occured instantly in the godly realm it would translate to happening over the course of time, or in intervals , or even at multiple times, or at no time at all, according to mortal perception. It's confusing, but I for one think that deities and their doings should be somewhat incomprehensible anyway. |
Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.
I see your walrus and raise you a carpenter |
Edited by - The Blue Sorceress on 17 Aug 2004 20:42:21 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2004 : 10:32:08
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I think, nay - I know!* - that Wooly's first two paragraphs** of his last post is what summarizes the situation more accurately. I wish this could be explained the sage's or the historian's way, but alas, this is a case of "D'Oh! why didn't you tell me he had written this... this new STUFF about LATHANDER!!!"
* F&P was a team effort... some pieces were written by some people who do not know much about the Realms and decided... certain things... after a VERY loose research effort... not aware that the monkish hordes of Candlekeep (nay - even the jock types of the WotC board!) would pick up on these "spur of the moment", creative, "let's forget about canon - what? you mean we still have to care about canon after 3E?" flourishes.
** "From what I seem to recall reading someplace, it was just a throw-away line, originally, that some author tossed out. For some reason, people seized on it...
TSR/WotC have a sort of "hands-off" policy concerning it: they won't give any kind of straight answer on it... They won't even give a date for it."
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Lysander
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2004 : 18:36:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
* F&P was a team effort... some pieces were written by some people who do not know much about the Realms and decided... certain things... after a VERY loose research effort... not aware that the monkish hordes of Candlekeep (nay - even the jock types of the WotC board!) would pick up on these "spur of the moment", creative, "let's forget about canon - what? you mean we still have to care about canon after 3E?" flourishes.
I seem to recall the phrase in the 2e books; I will check and report when I have them in front of me.
Lysander |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2004 : 20:53:30
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| Don't bother: I met the writer who created the Dawn Cataclysm in person at a convention... it's very much 3E new info written into the F&P. |
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The Blue Sorceress
Learned Scribe
107 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2004 : 21:03:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
I think, nay - I know!* - that Wooly's first two paragraphs** of his last post is what summarizes the situation more accurately. I wish this could be explained the sage's or the historian's way, but alas, this is a case of "D'Oh! why didn't you tell me he had written this... this new STUFF about LATHANDER!!!"
Well, yeah, that's the reason for saying it happened on godly-time, but I've still no problem with it. I write fiction (mostly for fun) and I find, as I near the end of a a novel, (I've finished three, but they're too sad and pathetic to send to a publishing company so I doubt they'll ever see print) the stuff I wrote at the beginning gets a little blurry unless I contstantly go back and check my work. And I've got a good memory. Now, multiply that problem by about ten because of having *years* between some sources coming out, because of so many sources that fact-checking because nigh-impossible, because of time constraints and because you have several people working on the same project, and you're going to end up with inconsistancies.
Yes, they could have come here and said "Hey guys, dig up all the info on Lathander you can, please, we're writing a new source book about the gods of Faerun," but by the time they could have done that, if NDA's were involved, it might well have been too late, and besides, it smacks of arrogance to me to insist that self-proclaimed experts on a fan-made message board and website, even one that has had some mcuh support from Ed Greewood and other official designers and writers involved with the realms, deserves to be consulted before a new source book is printed. I'm under the impression that Mr. Greenwood isn't even consulted on some matters before things go to print and he created the setting for heaven's sake. I'm not saying there's not a wealth of knowledge here, nor that the various sages could not have rectified some errors we've all seen in source books, but that there are certain limitations that need to be taken into account.
All that said (and I hope I haven't stepped on any toes, because I'm new here and I wouldn't want to offend anyone even if I was a veteran of the boards) I think that, since the inconsistancies are already in print the official explanation is a vaild one, as well as well that is philosophically and theologically pleasing, probably as much to the characters of the Realms by in large as it is to those of us who accept it here. There are also, I expect, some sages and religious experts of the Realms who, like people in real life, insists on trying to pin down an exact date for the Dawn Cataclysm, but I think that until the powers that be get together and decided to give it a date, which they probably won't because that would mean saying one source of another was wrong and I think they would much prefer to avoid doing that, that the Dawn Cataclysm, for us and for our characters in the Realms, will have to be a historical mystery.
-Blue |
Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.
I see your walrus and raise you a carpenter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2004 : 22:57:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Don't bother: I met the writer who created the Dawn Cataclysm in person at a convention... it's very much 3E new info written into the F&P.
Nay, I'm quite certain that mention of the Dawn Cataclysm predates 3E. I'll have to check when I get home, but I know it was mentioned in Faiths & Avatars, which came out when 2E was still going strong.
And I know that wasn't the first mention of it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2004 : 23:28:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Don't bother: I met the writer who created the Dawn Cataclysm in person at a convention... it's very much 3E new info written into the F&P.
Nay, I'm quite certain that mention of the Dawn Cataclysm predates 3E. I'll have to check when I get home, but I know it was mentioned in Faiths & Avatars, which came out when 2E was still going strong.
And I know that wasn't the first mention of it.
Really??? 
Would it be that I was... duped or... misled by a FR designer??
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2004 : 00:51:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Don't bother: I met the writer who created the Dawn Cataclysm in person at a convention... it's very much 3E new info written into the F&P.
Nay, I'm quite certain that mention of the Dawn Cataclysm predates 3E. I'll have to check when I get home, but I know it was mentioned in Faiths & Avatars, which came out when 2E was still going strong.
And I know that wasn't the first mention of it.
Really???
Would it be that I was... duped or... misled by a FR designer??
Perhaps he was saying that the info in Faiths & Pantheons was new, and he wasn't as clear as he could have been.
It'll be about 5 hours before I can get home, dig out Faiths & Avatars, and double-check. And that's assuming I don't work late -- and after the way the last four hours have gone, I may wind up forced to pull OT.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2004 : 04:08:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Nay, I'm quite certain that mention of the Dawn Cataclysm predates 3E. I'll have to check when I get home, but I know it was mentioned in Faiths & Avatars, which came out when 2E was still going strong.
Page 44 of F&A under "Rotten Luck." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2004 : 07:21:25
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Nay, I'm quite certain that mention of the Dawn Cataclysm predates 3E. I'll have to check when I get home, but I know it was mentioned in Faiths & Avatars, which came out when 2E was still going strong.
Page 44 of F&A under "Rotten Luck."
And that's not the only place... Though the DC isn't itself mentioned, Tyche's split is also mentioned on page 4.
The Dawn Cataclysm is mentioned by name in the entries for Beshaba and Tymora, as well.
I know there's earlier references, but their location escapes me at the moment. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 18 Aug 2004 07:27:04 |
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Phantom_Lord
Seeker
Pakistan
92 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2004 : 10:24:28
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I must say I didn't think that people would get so proactive all of sudden after my posting. In hindsight I could have chosen my words carefully. But I think the response was amazing.
And yes, I was refering to the Dawn Cataclysm. Granted its just an ideology, but you have to admit it is pretty far fetched. Re-creating the ENTIRE pantheon in your own image? or as how you see fit? Anyway, thats just me.
What about the second dawn cataclysm, any word on that? |
Ponka! Kaddu! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2004 : 15:21:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Phantom_Lord
What about the second dawn cataclysm, any word on that?
I believe the only info on it is in Faiths & Pantheons.
Truly, I don't see anyone doing anything with that one. I think that was a throw-away line that none of the authors will pick up. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Lysander
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 00:02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Don't bother: I met the writer who created the Dawn Cataclysm in person at a convention... it's very much 3E new info written into the F&P.
Nay, I'm quite certain that mention of the Dawn Cataclysm predates 3E. I'll have to check when I get home, but I know it was mentioned in Faiths & Avatars, which came out when 2E was still going strong.
And I know that wasn't the first mention of it.
Really???
Would it be that I was... duped or... misled by a FR designer??
Perhaps he was saying that the info in Faiths & Pantheons was new, and he wasn't as clear as he could have been.
It'll be about 5 hours before I can get home, dig out Faiths & Avatars, and double-check. And that's assuming I don't work late -- and after the way the last four hours have gone, I may wind up forced to pull OT.
(wow, whole string of quotes....  )
PDK - That's where I was thinking of, too - I don't have many 3.xE materials, but my 1/2E list is more of a "let me tell you what I don't have, it'll be faster" kind of thing. If'n I'm misremembering something, odds on bet is that it's not new
Lysander |
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Lathander's Sanity
