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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 23:39:50
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There've been quite a few threads relating to deities and clerics lately, and they brought up a few questions. Just how closely are divine casters monitored by their god? Obviosly, direct contact is rare, but how can clerics, paladins, and the like be sure their actions represent the will of their deity? Without the higher-level spells allowing access to the god, are they forced to rely on their own conscious, or can they get a sense of what they should do? If a cleric goes too far outside their god's ethos, will others of the faith stop him, and what authority do clerics have over others of the same god?
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But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2004 : 00:48:26
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One thing that I really liked in the three 2nd edition godbooks -- Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, & Demihuman Deities -- was the description of manifestations. Each deity has is own way of showing favor or disfavor, or leading their followers down the correct path, or similar stuff.
So if your deity is pleased with you, you might suddenly see a flower bloom right in front of you, or you might get a gentle breeze, despite being underground, or something like that. If your deity is irked, you may catch a whiff of carrion, or hear distant thunder in a cloudless sky, or trip over a rock that wasn't there a minute ago...
The exact manifestation depends on the deity, of course. |
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Wood Elf Ranger
Senior Scribe
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2004 : 01:33:15
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Maybe this is just me but I believe that each character cleric or not chooses their patron diety based upon their own personality and alignment. So by following their own will they follow their chosen diety because theirs is the closest to their own.
Somewhere I remember reading that if the majority of a dieties followers are of a certain alignment it may switch the dieties own alignment. That also supports my belief.
R.A. Salvatore describes something similar in how Drizzt comes to worship Mielikki. I believed this before but this solidified my belief.
Manifestations like Wooly was talking about sound like fun though |
~Lee N.
"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU |
Edited by - Wood Elf Ranger on 11 Aug 2004 01:34:41 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2004 : 13:39:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
Just how closely are divine casters monitored by their god?
It's also dependent upon the fact of whether or not a particular deity has several aspects of his/herself on other worlds (only relevant in 2e, or if you still use the Great Wheel). Some powers (especially those of lesser ranking or lower) are unable to maintain constant attention on their followers across the multiple worlds. They must focus on each world individually to better enhance their contact with their followers.
It's a small consideration I know, but it is important to remember, especially if you don't subscribe to the 3e core planar framework.
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Eccerion
Acolyte
Norway
12 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2004 : 18:30:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
Just how closely are divine casters monitored by their god?
Well it depends on just how much time and inclenation the god has at the time  .
Some gods like Bane have a tendancy to more or less micromanage their followers, while others let em do pretty much what they want as long as they dont do anythign the diety really disapproves of.
All gods/godesses have the abilitiy to sense for miles around, and can sense anything up to the same amount of miles from any of their worshipers, holy sights, objeckts or any location where one of their names or titles have been spoken in the last hour, and they can extend these senses to several places across the planes at the same time.
This means all worshipers, and especially the clerics, paladins and rangers of a diety is litterally their patron gods eyes and ears on the Prime. So even if the Deities are not omniprecent, they are really close to it, perticularly the ones of Greater status.
So if a cleric starts moving drastically away from his patrons dogma chanses are good the god in question will notice (they might even be tipped off by other worshippers praying for them to help the cleric find his way). Of course the gods first line of monitors are their faithfull, with the clerics leading the vanguard to keep their gods informed of relevant happenings through prayer, messeges carried by outsider servants or direct communication spells.
I`d say the level of monitoring a divine caster has on him is proporsional to his level of power, for instance having one lvl 3 cleric going of the beaten path isnt likely to attract much attention from the deiety, who if he notices leaves it up to his mortal servants to deal with it. A lvl 16 cleric/lvl 2 hierophant causing trouble on the other hand is going to get the gods attention right quick, after all if peole like Cadderly or Fzoul step out of line with their gods doctrine you just know Denier and Bane respectivly are going to notice and react
It would also depend on what the DC does, if he prayes for spells, does his daily routine and goes to bed to repeat the process the next day its unlikely the deity is going to give him much thought unless something special comes up. Where as if a druid of sylvanus starts going around setting the forest on fire, he`ll have to explain himself to a couple of outsider servants of the oak father in little time, unless the god gets so upset he diecides to take off his mr.nice cap and give the insolent little mortal a slap on the wrist himself, like Cyric and Talos are wont to do on occassions when their worshipers tick them off. |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2004 : 19:08:29
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Personally, I don't like the idea of gods and goddesses that are these supra-powered beings who are trying to impose their will on the world through force. I tend to think of them as almost a force of nature. They are strange and powerful forces that also have a personality. They can be many places at once and paying attention to several things at the same time. These forces are more concerned with thriving in the universe, which can mean expanding, but also in just existing. With this type of idea, I see less of these giant, child-like, battling pantheons that are constantly butting heads.
With that in mind, I feel that the gods are in touch with all their clerics and druids. It maybe a subtle message that they are giving, or trying to steer, but they are trying to do it. If someone reacts directly against their patron, I am sure that they will loose power. At what point does the god know what is going on? I say whatever makes the best story. Perhaps the god might even know about the deception and it is all part of an even larger plan? Gods think in odd and unhuman ways.
These are but my humble opinions. |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2004 : 18:36:17
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Well met!
quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
There've been quite a few threads relating to deities and clerics lately, and they brought up a few questions. Just how closely are divine casters monitored by their god? Obviosly, direct contact is rare, but how can clerics, paladins, and the like be sure their actions represent the will of their deity? Without the higher-level spells allowing access to the god, are they forced to rely on their own conscious, or can they get a sense of what they should do? If a cleric goes too far outside their god's ethos, will others of the faith stop him, and what authority do clerics have over others of the same god?
I tend to see clerics earning their powers as a result of persistence, devotion, and literal self-sacrifce, ie. a making sacred of the self, that brings their values and will ever more and more in line with that of their god.
Thus, as the cleric grows in level they should be ever more sure of what their deity would do and/or wants them to do in any given situation.
I think that it is mostly through the harmonization of one's values, mindset, and will with that of the Godhead that clerics earn access to the stream of power of that deity. Greater harmony equals great access, while less harmony equals less access.
This enables the deity to keep it's power and awareness consolidated if it so desires, and allows it the time to engage in whatever greater pursuits such wights engage in. And it gives the devout no uncertain sign regarding their standing in regards to their deity. If they stray they lose their powers, if htey cleave their powers waxes ... as certainly as if they were wizards cleaving to, or straying from, the fundamental laws of magic.
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Deities and their Servants
