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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jul 2004 : 23:54:06
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How exactly did clerics come to be the dominant force in drow society? I would think that they would logically fall almost lowest, or at least beneath wizards. The reason for this is the fact that clerics lack sufficiently powerful spells and/or combat skills to defeat warriors or wizards in any lasting way. The fabled drow swordcraft and arcane might should seem to supersede the powers of priestesses. The dark elves' spell resistance would minimize whatever divine magic they wield. Unless Lolth intercedes directly on a regular basis (which I don't believe she does), a theocracy seems difficult to understand. I'm probally missing some obvious reason, but if so, aid me O scribes!
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But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 00:12:50
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Sourcemaster2, Lolth does intercede on a regular basis. She doesn't appear of course, but she directs the events that happen. The Spider Queen would send yocholoths to represent her wishes and she also send messages to her Matron Mothers.
As for clerics not being important, I disagree. If there are no clerics or priests, where do you think we would get our healing spells from? Wizards sure as hell can't cast them... Just look at the WotSQ series and see what chaos is there from the silence of Lolth. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 00:21:21
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| It isn't that clerics aren't important-they are-but as also seen in WotSQ, healing can be accomplished by bards. Not as well or as much, but enough to make clerics not strictly needed. To what degree does Lolth intercede? If the warriors and mages rose up against the clerics, would Lolth strike them down? The novels (which admittidly aren't always accurate) don't show Lolth as caring enough about her clergy to aid them unless she feels like it. For that matter, why worship Lolth at all (in general, not the whole inforced worship thing)? She's a very capricious goddess, too undependable to, well, depend upon. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 02:45:35
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Sourcemaster2, you bring up a great point, and I think the WotSQ books tackle the issue you're bringing up.
To address clerics in general, the cleric is a powerhouse of attack and defense in combat. The cleric in my group has such a high armor class that he seldom takes damage (he's 21st level with an AC of 38 with no spells). Clerics are also capable of unleashing horrible magic, and if the cleric has access to the magic or spell domains, they have access to most wizard spells as well. Further, when given a few rounds, a cleric can render him or herself virtually immune to damage, whether it be physical, elemental, or magical. While the cleric's superior armor class and spell-bufffed resistances, he or she could use slay living, destruction, or earthquake on the fighters, and cast greater dispellings on the wizards and mop up the floor.
Concerning drow society, you must remember that females are physically stronger than males in drow society. The fact that Lolth is female might have something to do with the matriarchy of Menzo and most other drow cities. The hierarchy is in place, and it has been for centuries, if not milennia. Only a few drow males can rise up above that level of slave: Ryld, Zak, Drizzt. Of course, any one of these men would most likely (in some cases, they have) slaughter a matron mother, let alone a drow priestess.
I'm very excited to see the results of the WotSQ books. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 02:55:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
It isn't that clerics aren't important-they are-but as also seen in WotSQ, healing can be accomplished by bards. Not as well or as much, but enough to make clerics not strictly needed. To what degree does Lolth intercede? If the warriors and mages rose up against the clerics, would Lolth strike them down? The novels (which admittidly aren't always accurate) don't show Lolth as caring enough about her clergy to aid them unless she feels like it. For that matter, why worship Lolth at all (in general, not the whole inforced worship thing)? She's a very capricious goddess, too undependable to, well, depend upon.
Yes, it's true that Lolth doesn't care about her clergy very much, but I am sure she wouldn't tolerate an uprising from the males against her priestesses. In WotSQ's case, it was because she had "something" to do. If Lolth had been like usual and the males attacked her priestesses, she would've sent an avatar to take care of them. THe Spider Queen does not care about her clergy, but she needs them in order for her existence. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Proc
Acolyte
Canada
32 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 03:43:29
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As Crust pointed out, the Drow hierarchy has been in place for millennia. Meaning that both males and females have been indoctrinated to believe that females are superior in every way. When almost any female drow can kill almost any male drow without fear of consequence, it leads to the females holding all the power.
Lolth may be fickle and chaotic, but the power she grants to those she see's as "in her favour" is amazing. Plus, Drow females don't have much choice in terms of who they whorship (nor males for that matter.) The Spider Queen is all they know from the very beginning. |
"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house."
- George Carlin |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 03:45:53
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DDH_101, an avatar response would be formidable. That's the kind of thing I was asking about. I wasn't sure if Lolth would directly protect her clergy.
Crust, while a high-level cleric is potent, it takes a very high-level cleric to equal (magically speaking)a strong mage. Clerical magic just isn't versatile and/or powerful enough to match a mage except at high levels. The spell or magic domains can make a cleric somewhat on par with a mage, but Lolthites don't have access to them. As mighty clerics (and mages, of course) are rare, the power would favor wizards. Obviously melee favors clerics, but wizardly spells are superior to clerics'. A wizard can protect himself as well or better than a cleric, and their offensive spells are far more versatile and powerful. I'm not saying that clerics are worse, but they divide their strength between military and magical might. That division makes them better fighters, but reduces their spellcasting. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
Edited by - Sourcemaster2 on 30 Jul 2004 04:37:18 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 06:16:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Proc
As Crust pointed out, the Drow hierarchy has been in place for millennia. Meaning that both males and females have been indoctrinated to believe that females are superior in every way. When almost any female drow can kill almost any male drow without fear of consequence, it leads to the females holding all the power.
Lolth may be fickle and chaotic, but the power she grants to those she see's as "in her favour" is amazing. Plus, Drow females don't have much choice in terms of who they whorship (nor males for that matter.) The Spider Queen is all they know from the very beginning.
Proc, drow females do know about otehr deities. They aren't that ignorant. After all, they do learn in school and are brain-washed to hate other deities.
As for a choice, yes, males and females DO have a choice. It's just not a very wise choice though since Lolth dominates drow society. There are drow cities where Lolthites reluctantly share territory with followers of Vhaerun and Kiaranlansee (sp?). |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 06:29:20
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My theory:
In the beginning of their heirarchy, the drow were defeated, deccimated and demoralized in the Lands Above, and Lolth embraced them. She saved them as it were, when their very extinction was at their door, and the only connection that the dark elves had to the being that gave them life and power was the spiritual offering of clerics.
History teaches that people will embrace ridiculous regimes in times of need, and the drow seem to be no different... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 19:35:19
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| That makes sense. It's odd, though, that Lolth allows nonclerics to rule some drow cities but not others. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 22:45:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
That makes sense. It's odd, though, that Lolth allows nonclerics to rule some drow cities but not others.
It's not that she allows it, it's just that in those cities not ruled by her clergy, they don't have the power to rule. Most cities are ruled by the priestesses of Lolth, but there are a few where, for whatever reason, Lolth's clergy either never became strong enough to rule, or something happened that weakened them so that they couldn't rule. I believe Sshamath is one of the latter, but I'll have to wait until I can check. |
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Proc
Acolyte
Canada
32 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2004 : 03:48:20
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Proc, drow females do know about otehr deities. They aren't that ignorant. After all, they do learn in school and are brain-washed to hate other deities.
As for a choice, yes, males and females DO have a choice. It's just not a very wise choice though since Lolth dominates drow society. There are drow cities where Lolthites reluctantly share territory with followers of Vhaerun and Kiaranlansee (sp?).
Sorry, what I meant to say is that they are taught that all other dieties are weak and aren't worth their attention. I imagine there are quite a few drow males who only give lip service to Lolth in order to keep breathing.
The aura of fear and power that the clerics of Lolth project is probably even more important than the actual power they wield. When Lolth first went silent, the clergy tried desperetly to cover up their weakness so that the common drow wouldn't realize that the priestesses were suddenly vulnerable. |
"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house."
- George Carlin |
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Nelapsi
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2004 : 14:05:41
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| One important piece of information has been left unsaid. Lolth is the example of Chaos and Chaotic behavior at it's finest and her children follow this. Lolth is known for putting one drow house against another for the pure sport, her amusement or because they didn't make her happy during the last holiday. Fall out of favor with her and it would probably be wise to get your final affairs in order. Men as a general ruled, they were wizards and warriors if you follow Elven house normals, so when Lolth rescued the then surface elves from certain death, I could see a few changed being made. If their society started out with more females then males because of the wars and battles, this would also lead to a shift in power simply because the majority would rule. Drow female start out on top, those in favor with Lolth receive indirect support as well. Then she keeps everyone fighting around her in the middle of chaos, hard to form a group of any strength to challange authority in that environment. I think most drow who finally come to terms that "There must be a better way" find themselves either dead, leaving their home behind for the fear of death, or just staying out of Lolth's path. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2004 : 16:22:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Nelapsi
Men as a general ruled, they were wizards and warriors if you follow Elven house normals
Which source are you using as a reference to put forth this as the norm? |
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Nelapsi
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2004 : 17:15:10
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| Just general reading and knowledge..Have something to prove it incorrect, I am sure we can go digging thru every piece of information about every house within the Elven nations. |
Edited by - Nelapsi on 03 Aug 2004 17:17:06 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2004 : 17:39:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Nelapsi
Just general reading and knowledge..Have something to prove it incorrect, I am sure we can go digging thru every piece of information about every house within the Elven nations.
Well, through general reading and knowledge myself, I've never seen anything suggesting the norm you are putting forth. Hence the question.
Thanks for answering.
SB |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2004 : 21:03:49
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| I think Nelapsi might have a point in that, when they were surface elves, their society was probably different than it is now. So there may very well be a chance that they did infact follow along the lines of many species in that, males tend to make up the majority of armies, not the whole army, but the majority, and when they left for the underdark, their male populace could very well have been depleted, leading to the females gaining rulership. Which has then stayed in place for the millenia following, through indoctrination and the like... I don't know if this is indeed true. However it is plausible... |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2004 : 05:41:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
That makes sense. It's odd, though, that Lolth allows nonclerics to rule some drow cities but not others.
It's not that she allows it, it's just that in those cities not ruled by her clergy, they don't have the power to rule. Most cities are ruled by the priestesses of Lolth, but there are a few where, for whatever reason, Lolth's clergy either never became strong enough to rule, or something happened that weakened them so that they couldn't rule. I believe Sshamath is one of the latter, but I'll have to wait until I can check.
It is.
Two events allowed the ascension of the House wizards in Sshamath, as well as leading to the deaths of all the House Matriarchs.
Firstly, the disappearance of the faerzress around the city lead to a significant weakening of it's defences. The second event was more long term, and would eventually see a generational rise in the number of wizards, while the clerics decreased -- the balance of overall power had shifted.
The wizards soon filled positions of power, and the traditional clerical Hourse structure became irrelevant.
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Drow Hierarchy
