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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 16:06:03
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SPOILERS!!!!!!!
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For years I happily hated Wulfgar. I felt that he was just a massive drag on the party, prone to more dangerous outbursts and more reckless behavior than Drizzt ever had - which is saying a lot.
THEN...Salvatore "killed him off" and I was happy. Wulfgar's return was a huge downpoint for me....
Then something happened I never saw coming. Somehow, Salvatore managed to completely redeem the character. The change in Wulfgar since his return to his friends, wife and daughter in tow, has been one of the most enjoyable turns in the entire series. Since then, of course I've moved onto the rest of the series, but I still remember that little moment of dawning realization....I LIKED WULFGAR.
Did this happen to anyone else? Even though Salvatore has stated that he regretted not leaving Wulfgar for dead (WOTC forums...I think...maybe on the RAS website), I can't believe how acceptable the character's return was for me.....
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My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 16:27:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
SPOILERS!!!!!!!
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Did this happen to anyone else? Even though Salvatore has stated that he regretted not leaving Wulfgar for dead (WOTC forums...I think...maybe on the RAS website), I can't believe how acceptable the character's return was for me.....
It didn't happen with me. When Salvatore decided to bring Wulfgar back, I ended my reading of his novels. I just wasn't enjoying them and there is no point in reading something when this takes place. After reading comments like the ones you express above, I attempted to return to the series with The Lone Drow. However, I still found nothing enjoyable about the series or the characters. I'm glad others enjoyed Wulfgar's return, but for me that was the last act. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 17:48:58
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What I didn't like was the way Wulfgar became shortly before his death. His change of attitude was, to me, rather jarring....
And I would have preferred it if he stayed dead. I can kinda accept the way he came back, but I woulda been happier if it had't happened. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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BobROE
Learned Scribe
Canada
106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 17:57:51
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| The reverse is true for me. I liked his character before his death but after his return I hated him. When I read Spine of the World I'm often tempted to skip the chapters about him because I just can't stand him. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 18:42:50
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quote:
Originally posted by BobROE
The reverse is true for me. I liked his character before his death but after his return I hated him. When I read Spine of the World I'm often tempted to skip the chapters about him because I just can't stand him.
Oh, I liked him originally... It's just that in the book that featured his death (the title escapes me), he suddenly went from this friendly guy to this attitudinal and jealous jerk. It was out of the blue, and this quite jarring. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 19:38:50
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| I really could care less about Wulfgar.If he was left to be dead I would have been fine with that.Him being alive is fine too. |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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Ignorance Personified
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 19:55:47
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quote:
Originally Posted by Wooly Rupert
It's just that in the book that featured his death (the title escapes me), he suddenly went from this friendly guy to this attitudinal and jealous jerk. It was out of the blue, and this quite jarring.
In terms of page count I agree, Wulfgar's torment basically limited to the prologue of Passage to Dawn, but I thought Wulfgar's change was realistic (People turn to drinking and rapidly change their personality after losing a job. Why not after being tormented in the abyss for several years?) and I also found Wulfgar's change to be an exceptional twist in the Companions' saga.
I also did not find Wulfgar to be particularly interesting, although I would not say that I hated him, before his demise. Most would began to feel empathic toward him as he sank into the bowels of society and vacillated there for some time(as a heartless "illegetamate child" I did not). After his remergence I do root for him more, after all Menzo seems preety tame compared to the abyss (at least before WoTSQ).
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Carthago delenda est. |
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Feiht
Acolyte
USA
36 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 22:52:01
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| I liked the fact that Wulfgar had "died" and it bothered me that he came back. In, what, sixteen novels, not a main character has really died yet, up against the enemies they have fought with the odds they have fought against. But, i do enjoy the novels, especially the lengthy fighting scenes and the fight descriptions. |
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Dantrag
Learned Scribe
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 04:07:15
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| I didn't like Wulfgar for a while, until he died that is. You just have to have the original members of the companionship...plus he has really redeemed himself an taken responsibility of a child and wife. He has been through many hard times and has went through them. I wouldn't have liked it if he had stayed dead, It just wouldn't be the same without him... |
" The truth comes out only in bold and underlined" |
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Valdar Oakensong
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
159 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 13:19:52
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| I honestly think that the return of Wulfgar was the point when the novels started to go downhill. I hate to knock Mr Salvatore as he was the one to get me interested in the Realms but that is my opinion. I used to like the early character and like him now but the Spine of the world period was for me boring. |
Guns don't kill people, magic missiles do. |
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Dantrag
Learned Scribe
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 19:18:22
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| Your half right and half wrong....Wulfgar did get sort of boring in the Spine of the World, but do you ever find yourself missing the third piece of the puzzle that is the dominating force of the companions of the hall? How many times has his brute strength helped save the companions lives...have you forgotten the way he saved Drizzt by grabbing Errtu? You just can't have two without three... |
" The truth comes out only in bold and underlined" |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 05:05:17
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Spine of the World was the first Drizzt novel that wasn't jam-packed with play-by-play combat, which is what I love about the Drizzt series. I liked Spine of the World.
One thing that intrigued me about Wulfgar recently was his encounter with Obould in Lone Drow. I thought Wulfgar was AT LEAST going to crack that armor or humble Obould in some minor way. I'm excited to see how The Two Swords turns out. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 06:04:59
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| Anyone think RAS might finally kill off Wulfgar for good? As I mentioned earlier, he did say that he regretted bringing him back in the first place... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 06:21:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Anyone think RAS might finally kill off Wulfgar for good? As I mentioned earlier, he did say that he regretted bringing him back in the first place...
I'd be very surprised if that happened. But still, we shall see. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 07:17:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Anyone think RAS might finally kill off Wulfgar for good? As I mentioned earlier, he did say that he regretted bringing him back in the first place...
I think that if Wulfgar died a second time, it would be regarded as a cheesy maneuver, and no one would take it seriously -- people would immediately start pools on how long it would be before he came back.
Not only that, but he had his heroic death already. I think RAS would be a fool to try that again, and I'm sure he would agree with me.
(If not, no offense intended, RAS!)  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Valdar Oakensong
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
159 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 12:50:10
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| I agree, there is no way he would kill him off again. Too many people already knock him and this would give them so much amunition. |
Guns don't kill people, magic missiles do. |
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Panador
Acolyte
Austria
28 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2004 : 00:06:58
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I kinda feel the same way as Arion Elenim, at least similarly. I always thought of Wulfgar as the unappealing brute, prone to outbursts and just... bad. In my opinion he was one of the most poorly developed characters I read about. I always imagined him running half-naked only wearing a loincloth (no, I'm not gay!  , that's just the subconscious picture I head of him ) and a horned helmet and hitting everything that came his way with his warhammer. And I really hated him for dating Catti-Brie - she's was Drizzt's girl after all, at least I wanted it to be this way.  I was really happy when he died - I know this may sound wierd. :D
But then he returned!  A lot of good people dying in novels stay dead, but he came back, dammit! I was really disappointed when he returned, all the more for his outrageous bevahior - at first. When he came back to his senses, adopted the girl (forgot her name) and kinda stuck with his woman (also forgot her name - maybe Delly or something like this?), returned to the companions and was in a stable mental state he grew more and more sympathic, it just happened, I didn't even notice it until... it was too late.
Of course it would have been much, much, much better if Drizzt's father Zaknafein would have returned instead of Wulfgar, Drizzt even thought it was him until Wulfgar suddenly appeared. Just think of the possibilities, another amazingly powerful good-natured drow on the surface, most likely sticking with the companions, if even only for some time. He would be proud of Drizzt, they could train together and achieve new levels of perfection and mastery etc. Zaknafein really seemed an interesting person, judging from his appearances in the first Drizzt novels, I think he would have had quite some potential. :[)]
But, Wulfgar is ok for now, maybe one day Zaknafein will return - let's all hope so. |
*Still thinking about a signature...* |
Edited by - Panador on 29 Jul 2004 00:28:26 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 19:30:17
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I hated the fact that Wulfgar came back, but then again, I think in most artistic endevors that leaving a character dead says a lot about your own strength as a writer. To bring outside influences in, I respect the Batman comics much more for having left Robin dead and Batgirl maimed than I do for X-men and its revolvind door of Phoenixes and other immortals.
That having been said, I loved Spine of the World becuase it was actually about Wulfgar, and about his life and dealing with the things that had happened to him. I think the real mistakes in the Drizzt books lately have been the effort to bring them full circle. I honestly think Wulfgar COULD have been happy as a blacksmith in Waterdeeep raising his daughter will Delly. And I think Drizzt and Catti-brie should have stayed on Deudermont's ship. And Bruenor should be king with Regis at his side.
Everyone has to grow up and move out and find their own destiny, but its like every RAS character is terrified to stand on their own. There is a lot to be said about friendship, but there is also a lot to be said about living your own life as well.
Even in Tolkien, Merry and Pippin had a different life than Sam in the aftermath, and especially Frodo. And Gimli and Legolas when their own way from Aragorn and Arwen as well. People move on, and even if they stay in touch they need to have their own lives. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2005 : 01:08:06
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I think the real mistakes in the Drizzt books lately have been the effort to bring them full circle. I honestly think Wulfgar COULD have been happy as a blacksmith in Waterdeeep raising his daughter will Delly. And I think Drizzt and Catti-brie should have stayed on Deudermont's ship. And Bruenor should be king with Regis at his side.
I could not agree with you more. I mentioned in another thread that I find the recent characterization of Wulfgar to be a step backward rather than foward--it just doesn't make sense to me that after years of torture followed by alcoholism and depression, he goes back to the same role he had in the early books--living in Mithral Hall with Bruenor and Drizzt and the rest of the gang and doing what he's always done (fighting) in spite of the fact that he willingly took a wife and child under his wing. What's wrong with having him--and the other characters--just move on and find new roles in life? It happens to real people all the time.
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Everyone has to grow up and move out and find their own destiny, but its like every RAS character is terrified to stand on their own. There is a lot to be said about friendship, but there is also a lot to be said about living your own life as well.
Exactly! |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2005 : 03:55:02
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I know. And I also know that RAS doesn't always have full control over how a character moves, though I can't imagine Wizards would give him a hard time over Wulfgar retiring . . . if he had said he wanted Drizzt to I could understand.
I guess I just think back on when Wulfgar bonded with Bruenor and started to think of him as a father. It wasn't when they were fighting off the hordes of the Crystal Shard, it was earlier when Bruenor taught him the value of hard work. In his youth he seemed rather happy tending the forge with his "father" with nary a battle in sight. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2005 : 05:44:08
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I know. And I also know that RAS doesn't always have full control over how a character moves, though I can't imagine Wizards would give him a hard time over Wulfgar retiring . . . if he had said he wanted Drizzt to I could understand.
Actually, I believe it was TSR/WotC who demanded that Wulfgar come back from the dead... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2005 : 05:50:30
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| I know they meddled with the course the main characters took (and still do to a slightly lesser extent) but I did not know they had that much interest in Wulfgar . . . I would be interested in finding out if it was a mandated revival. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2005 : 16:49:37
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I know they meddled with the course the main characters took (and still do to a slightly lesser extent) but I did not know they had that much interest in Wulfgar . . . I would be interested in finding out if it was a mandated revival.
From what I recall, it was because of the response from the fans that RAS was ordered to bring back Wulfgar. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2005 : 17:16:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
From what I recall, it was because of the response from the fans that RAS was ordered to bring back Wulfgar.
 Please let me know when they next start to listen to fans when it comes to making decisions about novel characters. I have a long list. |
Edited by - SiriusBlack on 05 Mar 2005 17:16:53 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2005 : 18:55:27
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
From what I recall, it was because of the response from the fans that RAS was ordered to bring back Wulfgar.
Please let me know when they next start to listen to fans when it comes to making decisions about novel characters. I have a long list.
You're not the only one, my friend.
But keep in mind, this is something that the fans wanted and that pertains to WotC's golden child. If it hadn't've been related to Drizzt, Wulfgar would still be pushing up daisies. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2005 : 04:47:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But keep in mind, this is something that the fans wanted and that pertains to WotC's golden child.
Why does my mind suddenly flash to a bad Eddie Murphy movie? |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2005 : 05:13:25
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| Its it a sign of how pathetic I am that when I first saw that movie I thought that the demon looked like a Nabassu? |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2005 : 07:05:48
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Its it a sign of how pathetic I am that when I first saw that movie I thought that the demon looked like a Nabassu?
No. It's only pathetic if you saw Eddie Murphy and immediately wanted to cast him as Drizzt. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2005 : 08:08:41
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| No, I'll leave that for the Hollywood types that make my blood run cold whenever they discus optioning the FR for a movie or TV show . . . |
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riverc0il
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2005 : 22:56:09
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quote:
Even in Tolkien, Merry and Pippin had a different life than Sam in the aftermath, and especially Frodo. And Gimli and Legolas when their own way from Aragorn and Arwen as well. People move on, and even if they stay in touch they need to have their own lives.
yes, but having people move and not continue to face adversity makes it difficult to continue writing stories with no end in sight to keep the $$$ coming. perhaps it is a jaded point of view, but since wulfgar's revival, i have seen a generally slow decline in my enjoyment of the drizzt books. the most recent drizzt series was actually really good (with exception of the delly/wulfgar segments, ugh! end it already!) but lacked any closure in the last book of the series! i thought spine of the world was one of the worst realms books i have read and bored me to tears. i have been fairly critical of RAS lately and the direction of the drizzt series. there needs to be closure on certain ends and people need to stop coming back to life (now there's two reborn of the company, seriously?). though i though breunor's fall unfortuante as i liked the character, i was really hoping it wasn't going to be wulfgar part 2.
slowly drawing back to my thoughts on the original point, i am of the complete opposite view of Arion Elenim in that i enjoyed wulfgar until he came back, then i slowly disliked his character more and more in every novel. i think RAS could find an ideal solution to kill him off once again and once and for all in some final, fitting, sacrificing action. but with a complete 100$ finality that all characters in the series accept and go on from. delly and the baby need to get out! i say put regis and bruener in mithral hall and be done with it, and let the store progress onto drizzt understanding the elf nature with his new found elf friends. i really liked this development. killing off cattie would be fitting in that drizzt can better understand the nature of being an elf by seeing his closest companion lost to him meanwhile developing new ties within the elf community.
or perhaps i'll read the next series and find a continued lack of closure and will grumble under my breath while buying another book that disappoints.  |
-steve |
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riverc0il
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2005 : 23:01:06
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fwiw, i realize that bruenor never officially was 100% dead, but i still saw it as a "coming back from the dead" incident. i guess it happens all the time in the realms, but i think it's a silly way to manipulate character thoughts and explore emotion.
sorry for the spelling errors in the above post. i don't see an edit command on this forum so take it easy on the newbie for typing too fast and not rereading before hitting the post button, :) |
-steve |
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Latter day Wulfgar
