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Lysander
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Mar 2005 : 02:57:08
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Its it a sign of how pathetic I am that when I first saw that movie I thought that the demon looked like a Nabassu?
No. It's only pathetic if you saw Eddie Murphy and immediately wanted to cast him as Drizzt.
SHHHHHHH!
You'll give people (to use the term loosely) ideas!    |
Lysander
Defender of the Second Edition
Moderator, Project Gemengan, Worlds of D&D |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2005 : 02:57:19
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quote:
Originally posted by riverc0il
fwiw, i realize that bruenor never officially was 100% dead, but i still saw it as a "coming back from the dead" incident. i guess it happens all the time in the realms, but i think it's a silly way to manipulate character thoughts and explore emotion.
He was only mostly dead... 
quote:
Originally posted by riverc0il
sorry for the spelling errors in the above post. i don't see an edit command on this forum so take it easy on the newbie for typing too fast and not rereading before hitting the post button, :)
You see the row of icons over each post? Over your own is one that looks like a pencil on a piece of paper. That's the button for editing. 
BTW, welcome to Candlekeep!
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2005 : 05:44:02
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quote:
Originally posted by riverc0il
fwiw, i realize that bruenor never officially was 100% dead, but i still saw it as a "coming back from the dead" incident. i guess it happens all the time in the realms, but i think it's a silly way to manipulate character thoughts and explore emotion.
...And it's a silly way to manipulate the reader, as well. The theme of a character appearing to be dead, but turning out to be OK has been very consistent in the Drizzt series. Even Wulfgar's fall from grace turned out to be a bit of a sham--at first when he came back he wasn't OK...but now, after a few books, he is back to his former mentality and former role, without a peep in the book about how his experience as a tortured man and former alcoholic might have changed him irrevocably. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2005 : 06:24:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
...And it's a silly way to manipulate the reader, as well. The theme of a character appearing to be dead, but turning out to be OK has been very consistent in the Drizzt series.
Yes, how many times has Drizzt thought someone dear to him was dead only to find out, voila, they are alive. Three times to my recollection, yes? More? |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2005 : 06:25:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
He was only mostly dead...
Did they check his pockets for loose change? No, wait, that's only done when completely dead. Apologies to Miracle Max for the confusion. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2005 : 11:27:35
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
He was only mostly dead...
Did they check his pockets for loose change? No, wait, that's only done when completely dead. Apologies to Miracle Max for the confusion.
Ooh, ooh, there's the fight I want to see: Inigo Montoya versus Drizzt! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2005 : 02:25:13
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
...And it's a silly way to manipulate the reader, as well. The theme of a character appearing to be dead, but turning out to be OK has been very consistent in the Drizzt series.
Yes, how many times has Drizzt thought someone dear to him was dead only to find out, voila, they are alive. Three times to my recollection, yes? More?
More! Bruenor, Catti-brie, Wulfgar, *and* Regis have all served as ways of squeezing more and more angst out of Drizzt...and all of them more than once. And let's not forget the times when the others all thought Drizzt was dead.
Apparently, these characters don't feel much at all unless mortal danger or death is involved...not that death has touched any of the main characters yet! |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 08 Mar 2005 02:49:52 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2005 : 03:28:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Apparently, these characters don't feel much at all unless mortal danger or death is involved...not that death has touched any of the main characters yet!
And I doubt it ever will. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2005 : 05:40:32
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Apparently, these characters don't feel much at all unless mortal danger or death is involved...not that death has touched any of the main characters yet!
And I doubt it ever will.
The Grim Reaper is afraid of those whirling scimitars... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2005 : 06:01:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Grim Reaper is afraid of those whirling scimitars...
Why Gracie do you feed me such perfect one liners that I must resist commenting on... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2005 : 11:24:24
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Grim Reaper is afraid of those whirling scimitars...
Why Gracie do you feed me such perfect one liners that I must resist commenting on...
It's my specialty.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2005 : 22:44:31
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*resists cracking a one-liner about the Drizzt books herself...* |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 04:59:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
*resists cracking a one-liner about the Drizzt books herself...*
Oh no, you being reticent. No, I won't have it. Please share with the rest of the asylum. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 22:21:40
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
*resists cracking a one-liner about the Drizzt books herself...*
Oh no, you being reticent. No, I won't have it. Please share with the rest of the asylum.
Very well...
I was going to say, the Drizzt books are great for those who are in the mood for some Whine and Cheese.
get it? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 09 Mar 2005 22:22:59 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2005 : 04:02:11
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Honestly though, this is what I worry about. The Icewind Dale books and the Dark Elf Trilogy were great books, and the longer this series winds on, the less people remember that there was a time when these were the cash cow but actually good books that drew fans in.
I'm not saying that I don't like the latter books at all, but they certainly aren't up to the original books. In fact, Spine of the World was such a releif because it was different, as was Servant of the Shard. It has nothing to do with RAS ability except that sometimes you have to leave characters behind for a while.
I am reminded of what Douglas Niles said about his second Moonshaes trilogy, that he set it so many years after the first one so that you could feel like the ending really had a lasting effect, so that you felt like the heroes won a lasting victory, not a breif respite. Let Bruenor rule for a few years in relative peace, let Drizzt and Catti-brie wander (maybe put out to sea again, as that was a fairly enjoyable plot line), and perhaps have a child, let Wulfgar get away from violence for a while, and then see how they react YEARS later to danger.
I don't know how many reading this were fans of comic books, but it reminds me of writers that were great at one time but eventually they just can't keep writing the same character. Chris Claremont was great on X-Men for years, but towards the end, and when he tried to come back to the series, it was just so convoluted and stale becuase he had "done it all". |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2005 : 05:29:16
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That could be a lot of what the problem is... I'm sure RAS would like to move on to other characters by now.
Drizzt and company were great, in the beginning... But the more I read about them, the less I care. It just starts to run together... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2005 : 06:28:39
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I don't know how many reading this were fans of comic books, but it reminds me of writers that were great at one time but eventually they just can't keep writing the same character. Chris Claremont was great on X-Men for years, but towards the end, and when he tried to come back to the series, it was just so convoluted and stale becuase he had "done it all".
Believe the phrase is "jumping the shark." |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2005 : 06:29:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That could be a lot of what the problem is... I'm sure RAS would like to move on to other characters by now.
Has he ever expressed this desire? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2005 : 11:24:20
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That could be a lot of what the problem is... I'm sure RAS would like to move on to other characters by now.
Has he ever expressed this desire?
Not to my knowledge... However, it seems to me that his use of Cleric Quintet characters in Drizzt books is expressive of a desire to write about someone other than Drizzt and friends. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2005 : 14:00:45
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I just don't want anyone to think I am just bashing RAS. I really do like a lot of his stuff. I actually liked the begining of the Hunter's Blades trilogy, "The Thousand Orcs", but I really felt that it slid downhill over the next two books.
I think, relating to the topic, Wulfgar just didn't do a whole lot of character development in the books, and actually backslid a bit. As I said, after Spine of the World, which I loved, I really think I could picture Wulfgar, Delly, and Colson living out their lives in Waterdeep with Wulfgar working as a blacksmith.
I do think RAS has a double edged sword going with Drizzt and crew. Sometimes I think that its not just the WOTC directives that handcuff him, but also that he doesn't want to loose the fan base that he has installed already by taking too many chances. The interview that I just listed too from before he finished the Two Swords seemed to indicate this as well.
All that having been said, I am really looking forward to the Jarlaxle and Entrerei books that he will be doing, and in his interview he even talked about doing a book about Zaknafein and Jarlaxle in their younger days, which I would definately buy.
I worry that if he comes back to this "Lets find Gauntlygrim as a fellowship" we start down the "Streams of Silver 2" path. I almost think that in the future it would almost be worth it to only see the original Icewind Dale characters as cameos, much like his cleric quintet characters have been doing lately.
And also, pointing out that I really do enjoy RAS writing and its just specifically the recent Drizzt books that have gotten to me, I was really excited to hear that RAS is still wanting to explore the Danica versus Entrerai subplot that he started in Servant of the Shard.
In the end Wulfgar seems kinda small in the middle of all of this . . . |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2005 : 01:48:59
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I think, relating to the topic, Wulfgar just didn't do a whole lot of character development in the books, and actually backslid a bit. As I said, after Spine of the World, which I loved, I really think I could picture Wulfgar, Delly, and Colson living out their lives in Waterdeep with Wulfgar working as a blacksmith.
Yes! Honestly, I think RAS missed (perhaps deliberately?) a wonderful opportunity to have Wulfgar grow and change. He took on both a wife and a child, and then in the course of the series, went right back to the character he was in the earlier books. The end of The Two Swords suggests that he is even going travel alongside Catti-brie! I hope I'm wrong, but I'm starting to sense that he is going to start feeling for Cattie-brie again, while she loves both Wulfgar and Drizzt (and isn't sure if she loves one or both only as a friend) and there is going to be a love triangle and all this angst...
And meanwhile, Drizzt won't be able to decide whether or not he loves Cattie-brie or Innovindil, or whether he loves one or both "only as a friend"...
quote:
Believe the phrase is "jumping the shark."
Yep! I rather think the series jumped the shark a long time ago. I read and enjoy the novels, but let's face it. The Drizzt series is essentially one long soap opera. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 11 Mar 2005 01:59:34 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2005 : 02:53:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Yep! I rather think the series jumped the shark a long time ago. I read and enjoy the novels, but let's face it. The Drizzt series is essentially one long soap opera.
Interesting comparison considering soap operas constantly love to have characters come back from apparent deaths. I believe a show some ladies in my life liked featured someone called Stefano DiMera returning from death, not once, not twice, but three or four times. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2005 : 07:34:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Yep! I rather think the series jumped the shark a long time ago. I read and enjoy the novels, but let's face it. The Drizzt series is essentially one long soap opera.
So... does that mean that Drizzt will step out of his shower in the Do'urden house in Menzobarrenzan and discover everything has been a dream? |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2005 : 11:19:37
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| In regard to the "jumping the shark" comment . . . picturing Drizzt wearing a leather jacket and snapping his fingers to start a juke box . . . "aaaaaaaaaaaaa" |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2005 : 15:39:17
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
In regard to the "jumping the shark" comment . . . picturing Drizzt wearing a leather jacket and snapping his fingers to start a juke box . . . "aaaaaaaaaaaaa"
What I get for making the comment. |
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Mareka
Learned Scribe
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2005 : 22:38:38
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
All that having been said, I am really looking forward to the Jarlaxle and Entrerei books that he will be doing, and in his interview he even talked about doing a book about Zaknafein and Jarlaxle in their younger days, which I would definately buy.
I found Zaknafein to be a more interesting character than Drizzt in the 'Dark Elf' books and I'd love to read more about him too. I just don't think the story would be any different than Homeland. The protagonist would just have a different name. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 00:00:08
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
In regard to the "jumping the shark" comment . . . picturing Drizzt wearing a leather jacket and snapping his fingers to start a juke box . . . "aaaaaaaaaaaaa"
Ironically, in the interview in Dragon magazine, RAS specifically said he didn't want Drizzt to turn out like the Fonz! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 00:36:49
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| Well, as long as he doen't end up acting oposite Adam Sandler or dueling with Mork . . . Good Lord I know way too much about Henry Winkler's career . . . |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 00:56:32
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Yep! I rather think the series jumped the shark a long time ago. I read and enjoy the novels, but let's face it. The Drizzt series is essentially one long soap opera.
Interesting comparison considering soap operas constantly love to have characters come back from apparent deaths. I believe a show some ladies in my life liked featured someone called Stefano DiMera returning from death, not once, not twice, but three or four times.
LOL! Interesting comparision, indeed. I have to wonder if RAS feels that he has to have characters "die" and return in order to keep the series exciting?
I'm not one of those people, btw, who believes that killing of Drizzt or some other character would or could, in itself, improve the series or make it more "interesting". However, would it be such a bad thing if RAS just let the series go? Maybe he can't for contractual reasons (who knows?), but still, Drizzt doesn't need to die a tragic death in defense of all he believes in. We don't need to watch him get married, grow old, have children, and read about the adventures of his children. RAS could simply end the series, and we readers could use our imaginations to decide what happened next. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 01:29:04
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From interview I have heard I don't think its a matter of "you owe us another 12 books with Drizzt in them," so much as he goes to the book department and tells them he wants to do a book and they say . . . "How does that relate to Drizzt?"
In fact, I somehow suspect that he might have given them this trilogy to get to do the Jarlaxle and Artemis books . . . but I could be wrong. |
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Latter day Wulfgar
