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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 02:00:49
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Just read a post over at Enworld by poster Gez
"Monsters of Faerűn: The Malaugrym are back!
FRCS: The Shades are back! Bane is back!
Lords of Darkness: The Daemonfey are back!
Unapproachable East: The Star Elves are back!
Underdark: The Imaskari are back!
Serpent Kingdoms: The Sarrukh are back!
Faithes and Pantheons: Orcus is back!"
Is it just me or is the Return of the X becoming an over used Cliche in the Forgotten Realms?
*Note a few of the above I support (The Return of Bane and to a lesser extent Shade)
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Alaundo on 15 Jul 2004 09:38:53
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 02:05:36
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| Well, the Daemonfey I can defend myself. THey were locked away, if they were not intended to be released from the get go they would have been wiped out, not imprisoned. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 02:28:55
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I don't particularly mind-I like the concept of awakened ancient horrors.
Then again, in my games, it's hard to tell when the fantasy ends and the conspiracy begins... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 02:35:39
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The Malaugrym are back! I was never aware that they had been killed off. Hurt, even decimated, yes. Totally killed off? No.
The Shades are back! The groundwork for their return was laid years ago. I don't see it as such a bad thing that they returned -- I found it interesting and intriguing, in fact, though Wizards didn't do with it what I anticipated.
Bane is back! I'm not keen on this one, but it could be argued that the groundwork for that return had also been previously established.
The Daemonfey are back! What Capn Charlie said.
The Star Elves are back! Okay, now this one I agree with. Why did we need yet another elven race?
The Imaskari are back! I see no real problem with this... It's not like they made a Shade-stlye reappearance.
The Sarrukh are back! I can't comment on this one; I've not gotten the book yet.
Orcus is back! The only reason I have any real feelings on this one is because I quickly grew tired of one guy on the WotC forums and his constant "Orcus rules!" posts. Orcus was present in the Realms before; I see little problem with someone with a former influence in the Realms returning, so long as he was still able to. I'm not certain, but I do believe that his return to life occurred in something Planescape, not the Realms.
Though I disagree with some of the original author's points, I do agree with his/her intent. We've had enough returns, now let's have something new.
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 02:37:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
I don't particularly mind-I like the concept of awakened ancient horrors.
Then again, in my games, it's hard to tell when the fantasy ends and the conspiracy begins...
Its not that they have a awakened Horrors its that theres a one in every book! Its begining to look like the designers are out of ideas or that WOTC has some "One awakened Horror in every FR book" rule.
I would much rather have more organisations than new uber races |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 03:14:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
I don't particularly mind-I like the concept of awakened ancient horrors.
Then again, in my games, it's hard to tell when the fantasy ends and the conspiracy begins...
Its not that they have a awakened Horrors its that theres a one in every book! Its begining to look like the designers are out of ideas or that WOTC has some "One awakened Horror in every FR book" rule.
I would much rather have more organisations than new uber races
Star elves are an awakened horror?  |
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BobROE
Learned Scribe
Canada
106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 03:32:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Lords of Darkness: The Daemonfey are back!
Well except they returned in Cloak and Dagger (and to a lesser extent Hellgate Keep), not Lords of Darkness. So they can be struck from the list. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 03:48:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
I don't particularly mind-I like the concept of awakened ancient horrors.
Then again, in my games, it's hard to tell when the fantasy ends and the conspiracy begins...
Its not that they have a awakened Horrors its that theres a one in every book! Its begining to look like the designers are out of ideas or that WOTC has some "One awakened Horror in every FR book" rule.
I would much rather have more organisations than new uber races
Star elves are an awakened horror?
Arivia's term not mine |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 05:28:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Is it just me or is the Return of the X becoming an over used Cliche in the Forgotten Realms?
Hey I mentioned this long ago, back on the old WOTC board <shudder>. Thus, I'm well ahead of the curve of those ENWorld folks. 
Yes, it's getting tiresome. With each new product I fully expect to find some long lost race/evil/god/etc. returned once again. It can be linked, in my opinion, to the push to make Realms product more appealing to those running a generic/home brew world.
I will say this, at this rate, it's getting mighty crowded in Faerun.  |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 05:30:10
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quote:
Originally posted by BobROE
Well except they returned in Cloak and Dagger (and to a lesser extent Hellgate Keep), not Lords of Darkness. So they can be struck from the list.
Exactly, unless they wish to say, well that was in the late 2e days, so the groundwork was starting to be put in place then. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 05:31:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Star Elves are back! Okay, now this one I agree with. Why did we need yet another elven race?
Because we just do...I can't wait to read about the Lizard Elves in Serpents Kingdom |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 06:17:40
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Star Elves are back! Okay, now this one I agree with. Why did we need yet another elven race?
Because we just do...I can't wait to read about the Lizard Elves in Serpents Kingdom
You mean Scaly elves |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 06:21:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
You mean Scaly elves
That's right, the scaly elves who have just returned from their interdimensional prison that they were sent into thousands of years ago during one of the Crown Wars.
Yes, that's it...now as for the PrCs available for Scaly Elves...
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MuadDib
Senior Scribe
South Africa
442 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 08:47:44
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hehe, it's not so bad for people like me. I'ms so far behind at this stage, it doens't really matter
quote:
The Malaugrym are back! I was never aware that they had been killed off. Hurt, even decimated, yes. Totally killed off? No.
and now they're back, and I never even knew about that other stuff happening to them. It's the beauty of circular events, if you just stand still, you're lost for a little while, but eventually, you'll be on top of everything again |
MuadDib - Candlekeep Inn Barhand |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 11:22:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
I don't particularly mind-I like the concept of awakened ancient horrors.
Then again, in my games, it's hard to tell when the fantasy ends and the conspiracy begins...
Its not that they have a awakened Horrors its that theres a one in every book! Its begining to look like the designers are out of ideas or that WOTC has some "One awakened Horror in every FR book" rule.
I would much rather have more organisations than new uber races
Star elves are an awakened horror?
Oops... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 12:27:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Underdark: The Imaskari are back!
The return of the Imaskari is probably the only "Return of ..." theme that I've completely agreed with. The Imaskar, and their places of power, have always been one element of Realms history that I'd liked to see developed further. I've never had any problem with this concept, only that the Imaskari deserve more treatment, perhaps in a tome that details the lands beyond the Dragonsword Mountains.
quote:
Unapproachable East: The Star Elves are back!
To be fair, the Star Elves *are* a new race. They never really 'returned' in the sense that we are familiar with, such as those races between the transition from 2e to 3e.
I understand what Gez is saying, but really, unlike the rest of his examples, they are the only original 3e creation there. It seems innappropriate to use them as an example of races that have *returned* in the traditional sense.
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 14:54:42
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Unapproachable East: The Star Elves are back!
To be fair, the Star Elves *are* a new race. They never really 'returned' in the sense that we are familiar with, such as those races between the transition from 2e to 3e.
I understand what Gez is saying, but really, unlike the rest of his examples, they are the only original 3e creation there. It seems innappropriate to use them as an example of races that have *returned* in the traditional sense.
Sage took the words right out of my keyboard. And I also agree with Arvia - the 'Return of...' has and will always be a part of fantasy worlds/literature/gaming.
In the above examples, I actually quite liked Star Elves - but wished they could have had a bit more actual lore, that explained them better. I also wished that they had had a different artist...
But, although the Imaskari was a surprise, the only one that has truly concerned me (apart from my dislike for 'Home Alone: Bane' - see other threads), has been the return of the sarrukh. And I have yet to own Serpent Kingdoms, like what I see in the previews, and could not have asked for better authors in Eric and Ed. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
Edited by - Sarelle on 12 Jul 2004 14:56:33 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 15:17:18
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The thinking, we gather, is 'These things aren't doing anything as mere background, let's make them useful* and provide novelty by making them literal, contemporary and physical.'
In any one case this may be a good idea -- though I'd prefer it left to DMs, not an official timeline. All together (though I agree the Malaugrym don't count) it looks as silly as Gez noticed, insulting to the imaginations of players and DMs (who don't actually require everything standing right in front of them to 'use' it), and depleting to the setting to blow these latent potentials like that (as also with the Sharn and Phaerimm). I agree with what ruleslawyer said on the quoted thread.
* denotes 3E jargon term |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 15:51:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
The thinking, we gather, is 'These things aren't doing anything as mere background, let's make them useful* and provide novelty by making them literal, contemporary and physical.'
In any one case this may be a good idea -- though I'd prefer it left to DMs, not an official timeline. All together (though I agree the Malaugrym don't count) it looks as silly as Gez noticed, insulting to the imaginations of players and DMs (who don't actually require everything standing right in front of them to 'use' it), and depleting to the setting to blow these latent potentials like that (as also with the Sharn and Phaerimm). I agree with what ruleslawyer said on the quoted thread.
* denotes 3E jargon term
I can agree with this post... Overall, it does look kinda bad, and it fits in with WotC's unfortunate need to define everything and everyone in game terms.
Still, I don't see much problem with the individual "returns" of these races/beings. |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 16:01:12
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With regard to the fey'ri of house Dlardrageth, I think its rather extraordinary how much attention they've been given recently considering their numbers. With Hellgate Keep, there were 3 cambion. Since 3.0, one of these "half-demons" was killed and we've had 33 fey'ri born to unlucky elven victims. By my calculations, this would mean that these 33 fey'ri are all under 5 years old. However, they may have also been put into temporal stasis when the cambions were, but in a different location and have since been rescued. Another alternative might be that Sarya has magically aged the fey'ri (something which was done to the tanarukka of the Scoured Legion).
It will be interesting to see what sort of backgrounds Mr. Baker gives them in his upcoming novel. However, I'd personally love to see a chronicle make use of a bunch of 4 year-old fey'ri as villains.
Sarta |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 16:37:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
With regard to the fey'ri of house Dlardrageth, I think its rather extraordinary how much attention they've been given recently considering their numbers. With Hellgate Keep, there were 3 cambion. Since 3.0, one of these "half-demons" was killed and we've had 33 fey'ri born to unlucky elven victims. By my calculations, this would mean that these 33 fey'ri are all under 5 years old. However, they may have also been put into temporal stasis when the cambions were, but in a different location and have since been rescued. Another alternative might be that Sarya has magically aged the fey'ri (something which was done to the tanarukka of the Scoured Legion).
It will be interesting to see what sort of backgrounds Mr. Baker gives them in his upcoming novel. However, I'd personally love to see a chronicle make use of a bunch of 4 year-old fey'ri as villains.
Sarta
Cloak & Dagger is where the additional fey'ri come from. Three other elven Houses from Siluvanede, who were allied with House Dlardrageth, did the same thing the Dlardrageth did. They, too, were imprisoned, and later freed by the Dlargradeth after they got out.
Their numbers are small, but there are more adult fey'ri out there. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 16:42:58
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I've never been a fan of "by coincidence, an ancient evil JUST woke up plolines ..." My first question is always "Why this year/decade/century and not last or next?" In a game setting that lasts for man years, there will over time be a disproportionate number of such events in a short period of history, as many designers and novelists resurrect "buried ancient evils" within the window of the evolving year-by-year timeline, straining credulity.
Despite this tendency, in the Realms, I think we have the perfect catalyst to explain many such events: The Time of Troubles. The aftermath of this recent deific reshuffling (a pivotal and unique inflection point in the history of Faerun) should last decades, if not more, IMHO, and affect many different gods/cultures with many unexpected side effects.
In SK, we had to explain sudden activity by both the yuan-ti (after centuries of inactivity) and the sarrukh (after thousands of years of inactivity or plane-walking) without straining the bounds of credulity. The catalyst we chose was the retreat of the Okothian sarrukh back to Faerun within the past six centuries (because they've been losing a millennia-old war with the khaasta) coupled with the Time of Troubles effectively causing a big panic attack nearly two decades ago.
During that "panic attack", the Okothian sarrukh struck a fateful deal, binding Sseth into eternal slumber and handing his mantle over to Set. This major transformation resulted in Sseth sending his nightmares out to his worshipers, thus rousing both the yuan-ti and the Mhairshaulkan sarrukh from their slumbers. We are just beginning to see the result of such, nearly two decades after the ToT.
You'll note that SK has one other major inflection point in its various histories: the lifedrain spells of the phaerimm. The desertification of Anauroch causes the Netherese to flee south and west, putting pressure on the ophidians of the Serpent Hills. Pushed into new territory, the ophidians discover the Naja Fountain and Terpenzi. Once discovered, Terpenzi begins a campaign of subjugation of the ophidians. At Terpenzi's direction, the ophidians to summon the Hss'tafi tribe from the southern jungles, to manage their empire. This in turn upsets the millennia-old detente between the great houses of the Black and Mhair Jungles, leading to civil war amongst the southern yuan-ti tribes. This in turn leads to Merrshaulk dispatching Sseth and the rise of Serpentes and the rise of House Se'Sehen.
In other words, the Scaly Ones have thousands of years of history and long stretches of somnolence. All the major changes in the culture of the Scaly Ones in the last two millennia has been in indirect response to two major external triggers: the Time of Troubles and the Fall of Netheril.
Hopefully that doesn't strain your credulity.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
Edited by - ericlboyd on 12 Jul 2004 16:51:48 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 17:22:21
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Hopefully that doesn't strain your credulity.
--Eric
All jokes about Lizard Elves aside, I don't think any return has stretched the line of credulity with this FR fan. I have no idea of the WOTC reason for so many "returns" for lack of a better word. Speculation can lead to a push to make the games more appealing to the non-FR fan, a desire to feature something new, or just a designer thinks it's a cool idea.
My only concern is this point. Quite a large number of returns have taken place. I expect any future novels/gaming products etc. to note these returns and continue a plausible timeline of what has happened since. In other words, I hope that many of these returns aren't flash in the pans, for lack of a better word, that will never be picked up on again by any author/designer.
No evidence of that so far, but that's my only concern with this element of the FR. |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 17:49:28
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I would have to say I agree with Sirius Black. There have been alot of returns recently, but as has been said, fallout from the ToT is widespread and would cause alot of major events around the Realm. So I don't think there's been too many returns, I do hope it slows down now as far as, there shouldn't be many more returns, and the ones that have occured, it's critical that they're "played out" in the timelines as opposed to just being flash occurances, lest they just look like gimmicks to draw people in.
K |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 18:25:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Karesch
and the ones that have occured, it's critical that they're "played out" in the timelines as opposed to just being flash occurances, lest they just look like gimmicks to draw people in.
K
Well, to illustrate the point, let's take a look at Evermeet: Island of Elves. At this excellent novel's conclusion, there was a decision by Prince Lamruil to forge a new elven nation. What have we learned since this novel's publication about these plans?
Sirius pauses....and watches a tumble weed blow across his screen.
Exactly my point. I think that by now, in a novel, gaming product, web enhancement, something, that this FR plot element should have been addressed no matter how brief. However, as of now, it seems to have been largely ignored.
This same fate is what I fear for many of these "returns." |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 03:06:24
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Break it down heres where Ive got real problems with recent
Group 1
The Shades are back: Ok I accept this one had to be used to support the Shadow Weave in 3ed and it may be used to support the reappearance of Epic level spell and 10th level+ spells.
The Imaskari are back: This one doesnt make alot of sense previous Realms products went out of there way to say that they where wiped out.
The Star Elves are back: Did we really need another race of Elves
The Sarrukh are back: Previous books have said the Creator races have all gone, after all if they hadnt gone the lesser races would still been enslaved and never created civilizations of there own. Another thing that gets my back up is the apparent simularaty to the Star Elves. Both the Sarrukh and the Star elves left Faerun only to get into wars with races of Outsiders, in both cases they are or being forced back into Faerun.
Group 2
Bane is back: I support this one, Banes return can be justified by the fact that there wasnt a LE Greater Power after the Time of Troubles thus putting the balance out of whack
Orcus is back: This one makes absolutely no sense, Orcus is dead or Banished from the FR depending on how you read the H series and theres really no good reason for bringing him back we have 2 Gods of Undeath already (And a potential 3rd trapped in a Artifact) Orcus is not needed and should remain dead.
A God returning from the Dead should be a major event and shock to the population of Faerun not something that happans frequently
Group 3
The Daemonfey are back: I can live with this one
The Malaugrym are back: I can live with this one, there arent alot of them in the FR, but if we see a Huge influx of Malaugrym in the future then this issue will be shifted to Group 1
The main complaint Ive got is that theyve taken a couple of good idea's (Returning a God and reintroducing a race)and there beating it to death with a stick.
Im going to be really disappointed if theyve done it again in Shining South (Tell me it aint so Mr Reid) |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 08:49:47
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Im with you on that point, Sirius! I was quite excited with the ending of Evermeet, and have been hoping for a follow-up ever since.
The same goes for Shade - updates of events from the end of the Return of the Achwizards Trilogy would be appreciated.
These are MAJOR loose ends that shouldnt be abandoned. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 09:20:11
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"Does anything stay dead in the 3ed FR?"
Well, so far, Azoun IV has stayed dead... |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 09:31:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Im going to be really disappointed if theyve done it again in Shining South (Tell me it aint so Mr Reid)
Heck, Thomas better get rid of those "deep halflings" of Luiren that have just, literally, re-surfaced after millenia fighting the drow of Tlindhet.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 11:32:28
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Im going to be really disappointed if theyve done it again in Shining South (Tell me it aint so Mr Reid)
Heck, Thomas better get rid of those "deep halflings" of Luiren that have just, literally, re-surfaced after millenia fighting the drow of Tlindhet.
-- George Krashos
Id take "Deep Halflings" over another race of Elves |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 13 Jul 2004 12:27:11 |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 11:52:51
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Just so long as they didn't have Athasian halflings marry into them to stengthen family lines, I would be onboard.
IF they did have athas halflings in the mix, I would literally bowl people over on the way to he rack to buy it. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
Edited by - Capn Charlie on 13 Jul 2004 12:32:37 |
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Topic |
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Does anything stay dead in the 3ed FR?
