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Defender
Acolyte
24 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 12:01:49
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Greetings and Hail!, I thank all forum members for reading this topic! I would like to inquire does anyone have information on the Tymora and Basheba history and how is it that there is a goddess of luck and victory and a Goddess of ill luck and mischief.
I say thanks to any member who replies.
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Justice is swift and will strike when you least expect it. |
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Paec_djinn
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 14:01:41
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| If I'm correct both were actually one goddess named Tyche who split into Tymora and Beshaba. Not too sure on the details though. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 15:44:39
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| In short; Myrkul corrupts Tyche who goes for a walk and encounters a few other deities, including Lathander, who notices something is wrong about her. So Lathander smotes her, and from the shell of Tyche two new deities arise. Can't remember how they decided who'd take what part of the portfolio at the moment, could have something to do with flipping a coin, though. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 16:25:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
In short; Myrkul corrupts Tyche who goes for a walk and encounters a few other deities, including Lathander, who notices something is wrong about her. So Lathander smotes her, and from the shell of Tyche two new deities arise. Can't remember how they decided who'd take what part of the portfolio at the moment, could have something to do with flipping a coin, though.
The god Moander, not Myrkul was the one responsible for the rose that corrupted Tyche. Selune is the one who struck Tyche with a bolt of light that allowed some of what was pure about Tyche to become Tymora. Beshaba followed out from Tyche's shell shortly thereafter. No coin flip involved as it was clear from the start they were polar opposites. That tale comes from when a mortal is born, Tymora flips a coin and Beshaba calls it in the air. Depending upon the outcome, a mortal's fortune or misfortune is determined. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 16:41:34
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Actually...
Lathander and Tyche were lovers, They'd had a bit of a spate, and Tyche wandered off. She was on a snowy mountainside, when a rose suddenly sprang up thru the snow and burst into full bloom.
Thinking it was a peace offering from Lathander, Tyche plucked it loose. She tucked it in her hair and continued wandering around.
The rose, though, wasn't from Lathander. It was from Moander, the god of corruption. With that manifestation, he managed to corrupt the luck deity.
She headed home, where she encountered Lathander, Azuth, and Selūne. Tyche didn't know she'd been corrupted, but Selūne saw it instantly. She attacked Tyche with a bolt of slivery energy, and Tyche split right down the middle. From the remains popped out Tymora and Beshaba. Tymora grabbed good luck, Beshaba grabbed bad luck.
The powers that be at WotC refuse to put a definite date on this, but we know that in early 8th century DR, the church of Tyche schismed into the churches of Tymora and Beshaba. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 17:40:59
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Also in the old lore, since she is part of the greek pantheon, the greek gods were looking for her because her greek realm had been left to decay. See On Hallowed Ground.
Now that 3e/3.5e has changed how the deities are in FR, this probably has been written out. :( |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 16 Apr 2005 17:56:25 |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 17:49:00
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
In short; Myrkul corrupts Tyche who goes for a walk and encounters a few other deities, including Lathander, who notices something is wrong about her. So Lathander smotes her, and from the shell of Tyche two new deities arise. Can't remember how they decided who'd take what part of the portfolio at the moment, could have something to do with flipping a coin, though.
The god Moander, not Myrkul was the one responsible for the rose that corrupted Tyche. Selune is the one who struck Tyche with a bolt of light that allowed some of what was pure about Tyche to become Tymora. Beshaba followed out from Tyche's shell shortly thereafter. No coin flip involved as it was clear from the start they were polar opposites. That tale comes from when a mortal is born, Tymora flips a coin and Beshaba calls it in the air. Depending upon the outcome, a mortal's fortune or misfortune is determined.
Bah, I'd just woken up when I wrote that Mixing Myrkul and Moander together is annoying, though |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 19:48:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Bah, I'd just woken up when I wrote that
Was it before coffee or before you had a hair of the dog that bit you? If so, no worries.
quote:
Mixing Myrkul and Moander together is annoying, though
At least you didn't say Mystra. Damn M's. Haven't we got enough Gods that start with that letter! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 22:36:57
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And if I'm not mistaken, the legend usually runs that Tymora got all Tyche's bubbly personality, and Beshaba got all the looks.
And unless I'm TERRIBLY mistaken, this event (the splitting of Tyche) was part of the Dawn Cataclysm.
There's another thread devoted to some discussion on the topic:
http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=183&whichpage=1
Maybe some of the points there will be helpful. And here:
http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2522
For some official knowhow.
[quote="SiriusBlack"]Damn M's. Haven't we got enough Gods that start with that letter![/quote]
Don't forget Malar. We all know the beastlord takes a break from bathing in the blood of his terrified prey to cultivate his roses and his posies. 
And Mielikki, same thing. Except about the "bathing in the blood" bit.
Oh and Mask and Milil. Big rose lovers, those two. And Moradin for those dwarves (hurrah!). Not to include monstrous deities and beast cults. M's just a keeper.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 16 Apr 2005 22:41:00 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 22:43:21
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Bah, I'd just woken up when I wrote that
Was it before coffee or before you had a hair of the dog that bit you? If so, no worries.
quote:
Mixing Myrkul and Moander together is annoying, though
At least you didn't say Mystra. Damn M's. Haven't we got enough Gods that start with that letter!
It could be worse... Murdane could still be around, making it yet another M... |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Apr 2005 22:46:24 |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 03:16:43
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| Well pardon, I remembered it was said that Selune split the corrupted form of Tyche into two that eventually known as Tymora and Basheba but I wonder is she really authorised by Ao to do that? This I found a bit confusing. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 03:27:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Well pardon, I remembered it was said that Selune split the corrupted form of Tyche into two that eventually known as Tymora and Basheba but I wonder is she really authorised by Ao to do that? This I found a bit confusing.
No, she didn't seek permission. Selune took action out of concern for her friend. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 03:48:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Well pardon, I remembered it was said that Selune split the corrupted form of Tyche into two that eventually known as Tymora and Basheba but I wonder is she really authorised by Ao to do that? This I found a bit confusing.
Ao tends to let stuff slide unless the Balance is threatened. Selūne's action could have actually preserved the Balance. |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 06:44:37
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| Thank you, Wooly Rupert and Sirius Black for your replies. I thank you both for enlightening me. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Paec_djinn
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 08:05:47
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As another example... (SPOILERS TO PRINCE OF LIES)
Mystra and the council of greater gods(forgot what they called themselves) seeked Ao's councel on Cyric's publishing of the Cyrinishad which could harm the Balance. Nonetheless, Ao allowed Cyric to proceed. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 16:18:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Thank you, Wooly Rupert and Sirius Black for your replies. I thank you both for enlightening me.
You're welcome. Tymora smiled upon you via our replies. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 06:56:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The powers that be at WotC refuse to put a definite date on this, but we know that in early 8th century DR, the church of Tyche schismed into the churches of Tymora and Beshaba.
Just out of interest Wooly, where do we know that the church of Tyche schismed into the churches of Tymora nd Beshaba in the early 8th century DR?
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 11:39:16
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The powers that be at WotC refuse to put a definite date on this, but we know that in early 8th century DR, the church of Tyche schismed into the churches of Tymora and Beshaba.
Just out of interest Wooly, where do we know that the church of Tyche schismed into the churches of Tymora nd Beshaba in the early 8th century DR?
-- George Krashos
Page 264 of the FRCS, under "Ages of Unity and Dissolution", in the third paragraph. It's a brief blurb about the Dawn Cataclysm.
Given that clue and the other facts we have, I think the DC can be pegged as happening between 700 DR and 714 DR -- it was supposed to have presaged the Fall of Myth Drannor, and it fell in 714. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 16:00:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Thank you, Wooly Rupert and Sirius Black for your replies. I thank you both for enlightening me.
Why don't I get a thank you? Oh yes, my reply was dead wrong, sorry, do carry on |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 01:10:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Page 264 of the FRCS, under "Ages of Unity and Dissolution", in the third paragraph. It's a brief blurb about the Dawn Cataclysm.
Given that clue and the other facts we have, I think the DC can be pegged as happening between 700 DR and 714 DR -- it was supposed to have presaged the Fall of Myth Drannor, and it fell in 714.
Yeah, I remember that part of FRCS (which I don't have in front of me at the moment) - I practically re-wrote it. Originally, it was a big spiel on the Dawn Cataclysm that a few others nixed but the powers that be insisted on a reference to the dang thing being included.
I can't recall if the term used was 'presaged' or 'heralded'. I'm pretty sure it was the latter in earlier sources. And to comment on your dating, IMHO it's flawed because you are conveniently forgetting all of the references that don't suit a c. 700 DR dating (like the one with Azuth). Similarly, as has been said time and time again, dating purely godly events with mortal datings is something fraught with risk.
And going back to the 'presaged/heralded' wording, to give you another example: Alaundo's prophecy re the ghazneths was written over 1400 years before it actually happened and that too can be said to have presaged the event.
Similarly, the church of Tyche may well have fragmented in the 8th century of Dalereckoning but this event doesn't have to be linked chronologically with the DC. The DC may have occured centuries before but it took the mortal churches all that time to work out exactly what had happened and adjust their worship/religions accordingly.
Just my 2 cp on a topic that seems to have the fans obsessed for no good reason that I can fathom.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 01:49:48
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| George, I am in turn stumped about the Azuth reference you are alluding to. What is the reference to Azuth that is not consistent with a circa 700 DR Dawn Cataclysm? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 03:57:38
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There are references to Azuth not gaining divinity until during or after the Dawn Cataclysm... But Secrets of the Magister puts Azuth as the first Magister, around year 0 DR.
We know, though, that Tyche was still around after that -- she was worshipped in Athalantar in 3rd century DR, and Ed specifically states she had not yet split at that time. (Dragon 228)
So we have a serious problem with the time right there... Tyche was still around almost 300 years after Azuth became a god, so he couldn't have ascended during the Dawn Cataclysm.
Myth Drannor was founded in 261 DR. It's reasonable to assume Tyche was still around then, because if she split during the Dawn Cataclysm and the Dawn Cataclysm presaged (the wording I'm more familiar with) the Fall of Myth Drannor, then the city had to have been around during the DC.
I'll grant that whenever the split occurred, it may not have been noticed immediately by humanity. But I can not see it reasonably taken more than a few years for this to have become known to humanity -- simply because of how much influence the gods of the Realms have.
We have a source that pegs the schism in 8th century DR. We know it presaged the Fall of Myth Drannor, which started in 712 and was over in 714. Since I can't see the schism taking all that long to happen after the split happened, then it's reasonable to assume that at the earliest, the Dawn Cataclysm happened in the late 690s. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 07:23:30
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Then how do you account for the reference to Dornal Silverhand visiting Unsible of Tyche and the Luckhouse in Neverwinter in c. 760 DR ("Seven Sisters", p.5-ish)?
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 07:38:52
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I know that the second magister was appointed in 136 DR, IIRC. Assuming that the second magister was not appointed before Azuth's death or ascension, that is a good indication that Azuth died or ascended to godhood sometime by 136 DR.
I also know that Azuth is part of the story in Faiths & Avatars where he is present (come to mediate the dispute between Lathander & Tyche) at the moment that Selune strikes Tyche down and Tymora & Beshaba spring from her husk.
I had assumed that Azuth was already a god at this point. Is there some reference somewhere that he was still a mortal when that event occured?
If not then I see nothing to contradict a circa 700 Dawn Cataclysm. But maybe I am missing a crucial piece of information somewhere? |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 07:48:02
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Then how do you account for the reference to Dornal Silverhand visiting Unsible of Tyche and the Luckhouse in Neverwinter in c. 760 DR ("Seven Sisters", p.5-ish)?
I have two possible explanations:
1) Perhaps Tymora continued to answer prayers and grant spells to priests of Tyche for a number of years, decades possibly, after the split. Maybe her and Beshaba both answered to the name of Tyche during the period of adjustment.
2) Maybe Unsible was not aware of the split, perhaps even still believed Tyche was alive, or stubbornly refused to accept Tyche's death, and continued to receive spells by means of the Servant of the Fallen Feat as per Lost Empires of Faerun. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 11:37:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Then how do you account for the reference to Dornal Silverhand visiting Unsible of Tyche and the Luckhouse in Neverwinter in c. 760 DR ("Seven Sisters", p.5-ish)?
I have two possible explanations:
1) Perhaps Tymora continued to answer prayers and grant spells to priests of Tyche for a number of years, decades possibly, after the split. Maybe her and Beshaba both answered to the name of Tyche during the period of adjustment.
2) Maybe Unsible was not aware of the split, perhaps even still believed Tyche was alive, or stubbornly refused to accept Tyche's death, and continued to receive spells by means of the Servant of the Fallen Feat as per Lost Empires of Faerun.
I have to agree with Gray on this one, particularly option 2.
Besides, Myth Drannor was long fallen by then, and if the DC presaged its fall, then it had to have occurred earlier. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 15:58:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Then how do you account for the reference to Dornal Silverhand visiting Unsible of Tyche and the Luckhouse in Neverwinter in c. 760 DR ("Seven Sisters", p.5-ish)?
I have two possible explanations:
1) Perhaps Tymora continued to answer prayers and grant spells to priests of Tyche for a number of years, decades possibly, after the split. Maybe her and Beshaba both answered to the name of Tyche during the period of adjustment.
2) Maybe Unsible was not aware of the split, perhaps even still believed Tyche was alive, or stubbornly refused to accept Tyche's death, and continued to receive spells by means of the Servant of the Fallen Feat as per Lost Empires of Faerun.
As Wooly stated, I believe OPTION 2 seems more likely.
And as we see for option 1, we must consdier how would the Faithful have passed on after their deaths if both Tymora and Beshaba were answering for the now vacant position of Tyche? It is likely that this would have led to some significant chaos upon the Fugue Plane for a time, with Faithful wandering aimlessly unsure and uncalled to their final domains of rest. To some respect, it was either one or the other.
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
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Edited by - The Sage on 22 Apr 2005 16:01:34 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 17:00:37
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You want to know something even odder. There is a cleric in the Old Gray box, which is set in 1356ish, who worships Tyche!
Szellim Thunn, 4th level Cleric, Male Human, CG, Tyche, Member of The Hunt adventuring company, Cyclopedia of the Realms.
Now remember this was before that feat ever existed, so how is granting him his spells. :)
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 19:04:34
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| The feat/phenomenon has always existed, it's just that the mechanic was not published in a sourcebook up til now. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 19:12:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
[quote]And as we see for option 1, we must consdier how would the Faithful have passed on after their deaths if both Tymora and Beshaba were answering for the now vacant position of Tyche? It is likely that this would have led to some significant chaos upon the Fugue Plane for a time, with Faithful wandering aimlessly unsure and uncalled to their final domains of rest. To some respect, it was either one or the other.
I actually don't see this as problematic. I think Tymora and Beshaba would probably both send representatives to the Fugue Plane to gather Tyche's petitioners. If Tyche was your patron, you would be free game to both Tymora's and Beshaba's reps. It would really have been the luck of the draw as to which side showed up to collect you first. And somehow I think Tyche's petitioners would appreciate that. |
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Tymora & Basheba history
