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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 07:13:58
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Ok, I'm hoping this subject doesn't get booted off, and I'm not sure if anyone has an actual topic such as this one, but I'm curious to peoples opinions, and who knows, perhaps someone could guide someone of importance to this thread to see what others think.
I have read the 3E FRCS cover to cover. literally. As well as most of the PGttFR (3.5 update to FRCS) and the FRCS was something I really appreciated. the update.. I'll bite my tounge in saying that I wish I could get a refund. The FRCS is nice for it's broad amount of knowledge, and is great for getting someone started in FR if they want to be relatively imaginative in EVERYTHING about FR other than who leads what city, the cities population and the "country's" general attitude towards it's neighbors. However. And this is where I take my soap-box stand. I think it's about time that WotC puts a group of it's designers onto a major project. FR still seems to be the most popular Campaign Setting. In my experience, probably better than half of the people playing ANY other campaign setting, also play FR. On-top of which, there's MANY who play FR solely. So I think it's about time, WotC decides to dedicate some time to us. I've heard many a person rant over the past couple years that they'd die to see a tome of pure "fluff". Something that consolidates detailed information on cities, including maps. Detailed information on Organizations, including internal power structures/hiearchies, tactical information (for groups like Purple Dragon Knights, Soldiers of Cormyr, Zhentarim, etc) including typical tactics, formation sizes, typical weapon/armour information, etc. More detailed maps of Faerun and FR in general. City information including stuff about shops, taverns, inns, etc. because this is all information that as a player/DM it's nice to know, because players are eventually going to end up in these places, and it would be nice for a DM to know what the player will encounter in such places. I would honestly be willing to cough up $100US for a tome of fluff that was 700 pages + long, well bound, and included at least 100 pages of cartography. Provided that it included absolutely NO NEW FEATS, SKILLS, SPELLS, SPECIAL ABILITIES, SPECIAL ATTACKS, ETC, ETC, ETC We have enough of these. Every book released is filled with these. Listing the feats, skills, etc, of people within the book, so as to give a detailed description of them, thats fine by me. But we can easily reference our other books to find out what those mean. I want a book of FLUFF. Nothing but maps, people, organizations, cities, city history, area history, and all the other pretty stuff that makes a Campaign world REAL. I implore you all, add your comments, opinions, wisdom, interest in such a book, and then someone, anyone, tell people of WotC to come see this thread, see what their faithful are crying out for, and then make it happen.
*steps down from his soap box*
Ahem.. Thank you all. I hope you keep this thread alive and burning up with replies. Maybe someone at WotC will get the idea that they WILL make money if they release such a volume, and we'll see it happen.... Goodnight.
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Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 09:13:22
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I totally agree with you, Karesch. Im all for fluff and care little for crunch. IMHO, I say that campaign sourcebooks should be fluff-heavy and crunch should be contained within core D&D manuals.
Alas, WotC have some strange belief that nobody wants fluff and crunch is what its all about. Personally, I blame this on the past few years exposure of the Realms to the computer gaming market, which (and im not labelling everyone who plays CRPG's with this) generates a lot of munchkins who just want to build the biggest toughest character and bash monsters!
The days of the old boxed sets are long ago - no more numerous manuals, maps, handouts etc. and I think that every future FR product will now always contain chapters dedicated to Prestige Classes, Feats and such 
On your other point, I think that if WotC were to get some big resources together for a product, then it would not be for the Realms - Eberron will now get a LOT of focus and attention from WotC. Not that I can blame them - they are bound to want to push this new setting. At one time there were around half a dozen or so campaign settings active, then one by one they died , leaving just the Realms. Whilst the Realms is the longest-standing and popular setting, WotC couldnt have wanted to keep all their eggs in one basket, thus the birth of Eberron. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Edited by - Lord Rad on 05 Jul 2004 09:17:01 |
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Hymn
Senior Scribe
Sweden
514 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 11:40:41
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I totally agree with you two, the crunch invasion have to be stopped before it washes over the realms like some dark wave of ill missfortune.
All they relly had to do is reales crunch and fluff of the realms in two sepperate series. The feats and prestige classes etc adds some distinctive flavor to the realms apart from the core setting etc. But I don't want them cluttering my page of the history of Calimshan. Somtimes they don't even have any relevance to the part one is currently reading,which just makes me go sky ways.
Well that's that. |
Sauro moki kara ochiro - Even monkeys falls from trees.
The path that leads to truth is littered with the bodies of the ignorant - Miyamoto Musashi |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 13:50:57
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I might be better to say 'lore' rather than 'fluff' - even though 'fluff' is the more commonly used term, as was pointed out on these forums, it is rather demeaning to the people who invest time into researching and writing the lore.
But yes - I agree with you. The PGtF was the answer to the increasing 'need' for PrCs and Feats, and really had no place in a Realms accessory. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 14:57:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
Alas, WotC have some strange belief that nobody wants fluff and crunch is what its all about. Personally, I blame this on the past few years exposure of the Realms to the computer gaming market, which (and im not labelling everyone who plays CRPG's with this) generates a lot of munchkins who just want to build the biggest toughest character and bash monsters!
An interesting connection you've put forth there LR.
quote:
The days of the old boxed sets are long ago - no more numerous manuals, maps, handouts etc. and I think that every future FR product will now always contain chapters dedicated to Prestige Classes, Feats and such
Agreed, I can more than understand Karesch's desire for a tome in the manner he described. However, it's just not going to happen any time in the foreseeable future. Richard Baker commented on the old WOTC boards that a good portion of customers for FR tomes are just buying them to loot stuff for their own world. That fact apparently means more PrCs, feats, and other crunch items.
quote:
Eberron will now get a LOT of focus and attention from WotC. Not that I can blame them - they are bound to want to push this new setting.
WOTC is a business that has to make a profit. I have yet to encounter a non-profit role playing game company. |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 16:46:17
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Again I see someone trying to blame all of the hobby's percieved ills on computer games.
Look at the history of the game. For crying out loud, "ubering" up your character and smashing monsters is getting back to dnd's roots. Seriously, you used to get xp rewards for getting tons of "leet" magical gear even.
Also look at the multitude of manuals put out all through the 80s, the vast majority of them were packed with hard rules. THe Class Handbook series contained about as much if not more hard rules than any amount of lore. Hell, there was an entire series of books devoted to nothing but spells and magical items. This was all years before diablo and baldur's gate. The computer games of the time almsot exactly mirrored the state of the game for the most part.
As to the issue of more "fluff" in books, well, there jsut simply aren't enough customers that would be interested in them to b economically feasible, as has already been pointed out. Besides, there isn't a whole lot more to be put out. And with the multitude of complaints voiced whenever they reprint anything, is it any wonder they do not release any new "fluff" books? To do so would mena having to reprint a lot of stuff, because it is completely unrealistic to assume that everyone reading this new tome has read all of the now defunct tomes from the last two decades to know the background needed to understand the new information.
So if they did release such a tome, no doubt most of the people calling for it would keep right on complaining, just about something different, and equally unsatisfiable. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 17:50:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
As to the issue of more "fluff" in books, well, there jsut simply aren't enough customers that would be interested in them to b economically feasible, as has already been pointed out. Besides, there isn't a whole lot more to be put out. And with the multitude of complaints voiced whenever they reprint anything, is it any wonder they do not release any new "fluff" books? To do so would mena having to reprint a lot of stuff, because it is completely unrealistic to assume that everyone reading this new tome has read all of the now defunct tomes from the last two decades to know the background needed to understand the new information.
So if they did release such a tome, no doubt most of the people calling for it would keep right on complaining, just about something different, and equally unsatisfiable.
No, I disagree. The majority of us do want to see more lore, and would eagerly rush out to buy it. It's just that based on the sales of one over-priced book, WotC has decided that people do not want lore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 17:53:17
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| Captain Charlie. I'm sorry but I tend to disagree. Naturally I can't say nobody would complain about a book who's content might be half rehashed stuff (but brought up to the 3.0 ruleset) and half stuff nobodies ever seen. And the point of this thread is to hopefully disprove the very thought that it wouldn't be unprofitable to WotC to actually release such a tome. IF and only IF the tome were of considerable size, not a typical 300-400 pages, but at least 700-800 pages, including around 100 pages dedicated to not before seen maps. I mean, anyone who plays, has a map of Baldur's gate and Waterdeep I'm sure. But what about the lands surrounding those towns? Are there really any DETAILED maps of that? so, a good portion dedicated to such unseen area's (those were mere examples, I mean, I'd love to see at least one map with better detail dedicated to as of yet unmapped area's such as Maztica, Kara Tur, etc) But I mean, we've been flooded with spells, PRC's, Feats, Skills, etc, etc, etc. And I can't say I speak for everyone, but both me and my DM are pretty handy at coming up with things like that when we need them. It's not hard to come up with a skill check for doing something you've never done before. (IE: a skill check for charging across a room, grabing a wooden table and slamming a pair of hobgoblins into the wall. indeed, we have a check for it) So yeah, enough of that stuff. I'm quite ready and willing to pay a good amount of cash, like, to the tune of $100US to see this book happen. And I think if we can prove to WotC that there's alot more people like me out there that want it to happen, they'll realize it could turn out profitable. I've heard a number of people in different places say in the same argument that they dislike books that are nothing but a rehash of old writings, yet if things were brought up to date on the timeline/Edition then it wouldn't be so bad. So, a book of Lore (thank-you Sarelle) that was around 50% rehash but updated, and 50% new content, approximately, for a price near or around $100US, that is at least 700-800 pages long. Does this seem worth your while? Would you complain about the rehash? |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 18:14:18
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Im simply saying that rules do not a flavorsome setting make - provide all the rules and crunch in generic D&D manuals which should cover all manner of rules, variants and such, and just have pure fluff (:;drool::) for each campaign setting. Have campaign sourcebooks contain all the geography, timelines, history etc. and nothing more  |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 18:18:19
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| Oh to the days Lord Rad... that would be a fine future indeed. But I can understand the FRCS having some crunch. Because there's gotta be some crunch that was specific to FR. However, I believe it's high time for a pure Lore book. Very large, Very THICK, with NO CRUNCH! it would just be all to wonderful. |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 18:57:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
As to the issue of more "fluff" in books, well, there jsut simply aren't enough customers that would be interested in them to b economically feasible, as has already been pointed out.
For WotC, this is unproven. For another publisher with lower overheads and a non-crippling license fee, I'm sure it's false.
quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
- even though 'fluff' is the more commonly used term
I don't think it is; I went a couple of weeks without reading it here or on the wizards.com boards or REALMS-L. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 19:09:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No, I disagree. The majority of us do want to see more lore, and would eagerly rush out to buy it.
The majority of us...unfortunately....we as a majority count only some fraction of overall sales.
quote:
It's just that based on the sales of one over-priced book, WotC has decided that people do not want lore.
Which book is that? And speaking of WOTC decisions....when is the last time anyone saw them asking for consumer feedback?
I recall in the early 3.0 days, they would have some surveys at the back of some products or online. I don't recall seeing any survey or other chance for consumer feedback in quite some time. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 19:40:27
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
It's just that based on the sales of one over-priced book, WotC has decided that people do not want lore.
Which book is that? And speaking of WOTC decisions....when is the last time anyone saw them asking for consumer feedback?
I recall in the early 3.0 days, they would have some surveys at the back of some products or online. I don't recall seeing any survey or other chance for consumer feedback in quite some time.
I can't recall which writer it was, but one of the 3.0 writers did an essay on how the "bean counters" were so disappointed with the sales of the "Forgotten Rums" product "Silver Munches" that they decided to lean away from doing products with good amounts of lore.
As for them asking for consumer feedback, it's already been stated that they are utterly uninterested in doing so. When I was still on the WotC forums, there was a thread about what we wanted to see on the website. One of the website gurus came in and saw my suggestion that perhaps they could host a survey to see what features we wanted. This person explained that they were not interested in such a thing, they judged the value of web features solely by the number of hits each feature received.
Maybe I'm wrong, but here's how I read that:
They don't care what we want, only what we actually get. They'll happily keep turning out the crunchy stuff so long as it moves. They'll not turn back to lore-based stuff until people stop buying the crunch, and being disappointed with the sales of the one product that had more lore then crunch, they're not likely to take that chance again.
I miss the days when a book was 25% crunch and the rest was flavor... Unless some really charismatic sort within the Wizards can convince them to take a chance on something like another Volo's Guide, we're not gonna see anything like that for a long, long time. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 20:01:19
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| Sean Reynolds's celebrated "Donut Cores and Forgotten Rums" piece mentions the lower sales of Lords of Rumness, which the Bean-Counters dogmatically attribute to being less crunchy (rather than, say, being targeted at DMs), and ends before the release of The Sliver Munches. The sales of that book, or its nonfictional counterpart, haven't been mentioned in any essay I know of, and aren't known except to people at WotC. |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 20:11:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Sean Reynolds's celebrated "Donut Cores and Forgotten Rums" piece mentions the lower sales of Lords of Rumness, which the Bean-Counters dogmatically attribute to being less crunchy (rather than, say, being targeted at DMs), and ends before the release of The Sliver Munches. The sales of that book, or its nonfictional counterpart, haven't been mentioned in any essay I know of, and aren't known except to people at WotC.
And sadly, I wouldn't imagine they were too good - SM is the only FR sourcebook I don't have yet. Until I came to Candlekeep I'd only heard bad things about it - and now I know why. I'm certainly buying it on my next load though. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 21:16:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Sean Reynolds's celebrated "Donut Cores and Forgotten Rums" piece mentions the lower sales of Lords of Rumness, which the Bean-Counters dogmatically attribute to being less crunchy (rather than, say, being targeted at DMs), and ends before the release of The Sliver Munches. The sales of that book, or its nonfictional counterpart, haven't been mentioned in any essay I know of, and aren't known except to people at WotC.
Ah, my bad. I couldn't immediately find that one, so I went with what I remembered. Thank you for the link. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 03:52:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I can't recall which writer it was, but one of the 3.0 writers did an essay on how the "bean counters" were so disappointed with the sales of the "Forgotten Rums" product "Silver Munches" that they decided to lean away from doing products with good amounts of lore.
Oh, I recall the writer. He stands out for a number or reasons. But, I forgot which product he mentioned. If it was the Lords of Darkness, I don't suppose Cloak & Dagger could have had any effect on LoD's sales???
quote:
As for them asking for consumer feedback, it's already been stated that they are utterly uninterested in doing so. When I was still on the WotC forums, there was a thread about what we wanted to see on the website. One of the website gurus came in and saw my suggestion that perhaps they could host a survey to see what features we wanted. This person explained that they were not interested in such a thing, they judged the value of web features solely by the number of hits each feature received.
I missed that one. So, if an article gets a large number of hits, but it's perhaps people opening up the page, looking at it, and closing it quickly with a "Not interested" shrug....I'm right that in by the above line of thinking that this counts as "positive" hits for the article.
quote:
I miss the days when a book was 25% crunch and the rest was flavor... Unless some really charismatic sort within the Wizards can convince them to take a chance on something like another Volo's Guide, we're not gonna see anything like that for a long, long time.
I would not anticipate any change in the near future. |
Edited by - SiriusBlack on 06 Jul 2004 03:54:33 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 04:35:46
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
I would not anticipate any change in the near future.
Nor would I, sadly.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 04:52:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Nor would I, sadly.
But with that prediction, I can also attest there's a greater chance my wallet stays in my pocket more when it comes to FR products. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 05:19:33
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Nor would I, sadly.
But with that prediction, I can also attest there's a greater chance my wallet stays in my pocket more when it comes to FR products.
I rarely buy the products directly, myself. Instead, I hit eBay, and try to get them at a discount. I've no plans to discontinue doing that, except for the Waterdeep sourcebook -- I'll have to get that the day it hits the shelves. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 09:02:04
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Ok, so I hear now that a few of you are happy to keep your wallet's in your pockets with the current trends, however I pose this. If WotC were to infact publish a tome of pure Lore, would you be willing to line their pockets for it? Would that be something that to you, would be worth re-kindling your kindness to Wizards and letting them make the money instead of someone off Ebay or some such other source? I'm not one to insult Ebay, as I've bought much off of it, however I know personally I'd go out of my way to purchase a tome of pure Lore from Wizards, just to show them that people are interested in a book like that, and I'd urge anyone who enjoys FR to do likewise in hopes of rekindling Wizards publishing more such tomes. What say ye to that?
K |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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Brother Ezra
Learned Scribe
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 12:53:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Karesch
Ok, so I hear now that a few of you are happy to keep your wallet's in your pockets with the current trends, however I pose this. If WotC were to infact publish a tome of pure Lore, would you be willing to line their pockets for it? Would that be something that to you, would be worth re-kindling your kindness to Wizards and letting them make the money instead of someone off Ebay or some such other source? I'm not one to insult Ebay, as I've bought much off of it, however I know personally I'd go out of my way to purchase a tome of pure Lore from Wizards, just to show them that people are interested in a book like that, and I'd urge anyone who enjoys FR to do likewise in hopes of rekindling Wizards publishing more such tomes. What say ye to that?
K
Personally I would buy such a book for a few different reasons:
1. I enjoy books on lore much more than another collections of vaguely Realmian PrC's Feats, etc. It's what hooked me on the Realms in the first place. My disappointment with Player's Guide to Faerun was such that I really was hesitant to purchase another WotC Realms product until they proved that the things that I enjoy are still important to WotC. I am still holding out hope for Serpent Kingdoms, knowing that Ed Greenwood is participating in the product, but time will tell.
2. It's my hope that the power of the purse will have some impact on the product designers at WotC and that sales of such a product will be good enough for them to realize that fluff/lore can sell. I can't really fault WotC for targeting their products to the demographic that will buy them, but I've had enough of new skillz, powerups, spells, and the like. What I want to know now is what the world of Toril is like, who are the nations/groups/individuals that make the world unique, and how do these group's actions impact the daily activities of the world at large. What's it like to take a walk in Cimbar, what lasting effects did the war against the Tuigan horde have in Thesk, etc. These are the things that make the Realms real to me, and I hope that the purchase of such a product will shift the focus of the product designers back to what the FR products used to be during the 2nd edition heyday. |
"Suffering is the touchstone of all spiritual growth."
-St. Sollars the Twice-Martyred |
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Lysander
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 12:54:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Karesch
Ok, so I hear now that a few of you are happy to keep your wallet's in your pockets with the current trends, however I pose this. If WotC were to infact publish a tome of pure Lore, would you be willing to line their pockets for it? Would that be something that to you, would be worth re-kindling your kindness to Wizards and letting them make the money instead of someone off Ebay or some such other source? I'm not one to insult Ebay, as I've bought much off of it, however I know personally I'd go out of my way to purchase a tome of pure Lore from Wizards, just to show them that people are interested in a book like that, and I'd urge anyone who enjoys FR to do likewise in hopes of rekindling Wizards publishing more such tomes. What say ye to that?
K
In a heartbeat (would make reengineering back to 2.5E much easier, too  )!
The reverse of that is why I haven't bought the Player's Guide to Faerun - from all I've read, including here, there is very little in that book that isn't in the FRCS, other than the .5 edition tweak. As others have said, I'll wait a year or so, and see if the price has hit rock bottom on eBay.
Lysander
(Preview is my friend..... preview is my friend...) |
Edited by - Lysander on 06 Jul 2004 12:57:07 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 14:51:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Karesch
Ok, so I hear now that a few of you are happy to keep your wallet's in your pockets with the current trends, however I pose this. If WotC were to infact publish a tome of pure Lore, would you be willing to line their pockets for it? Would that be something that to you, would be worth re-kindling your kindness to Wizards and letting them make the money instead of someone off Ebay or some such other source? I'm not one to insult Ebay, as I've bought much off of it, however I know personally I'd go out of my way to purchase a tome of pure Lore from Wizards, just to show them that people are interested in a book like that, and I'd urge anyone who enjoys FR to do likewise in hopes of rekindling Wizards publishing more such tomes. What say ye to that?
K
Kindness begins to make the relationship between WOTC and myself as some type of friendship. It's not. They are a business, I am a consumer. If they want my business, I look for a product that interests me. A book with lore/fluff would have a much greater chance of doing that than past products. If they do not, I am free to take my money elsewhere. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 15:20:15
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I'll echo the sentiments of Brother E and SB.
Part of the reason I've been turning to eBay is the simple belief that the new stuff isn't worth the asking price, and a lot of that is due to the lack of flavor.
Years back, in the days of 2E, I had no qualms about dropping $20 or $25 on the latest boxed set, even if I had no particular interest in the region covered. I was earning less money, but I felt I was getting my money's worth from what I was buying.
Now I'm earning a bit more money, but the products they're churning out just aren't worth as much to me. So rather than spend full price and feel I got ripped off, I try to spend as little as possible to get the books.
If they were to return to the days of publishing lore, I'd discontinue that practice. If they published some new Volo's Guides, you'd not want to get between me and those books at my FLGS. I'd run you down in my rush to buy them. 
My personal fave Realms products remain the ones that were full of lore and little rules: the Volo's Guides (the first one is the reason I now love Waterdeep), the three deity books (which were enough to make me play a cleric for the first time), and Cloak & Dagger (the Harper Schism, the Manshoon Wars -- pure gold). If WotC was to get back to doing that kinda stuff, they'd get my money again. Until then, eBay will. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 15:39:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'll echo the sentiments of Brother E and SB.
Part of the reason I've been turning to eBay is the simple belief that the new stuff isn't worth the asking price, and a lot of that is due to the lack of flavor.
With myself, it's taken on an additional factor now. I still am buying FR products, but I'm not necessarily keeping them. Underdark for example was sent back and my money refunded. For future purchases, I will probably keep this option available. Although I am really excited about some of the authors involved in future FR products, I know they are not the sole persons involved in the creation process. Thus, I am proceeding, but with greater caution than I ever have before in my WOTC purchasing history. |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 17:23:51
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| As i said on an other post i'm completlty sick of what wotc is releasing at the moment, the PGtF is just a pity and i won't buy the next one i think. In fact i begin to be tired of the d20 material (apart of som books like the midnight CS) |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 17:51:51
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quote:
Originally posted by zemd
In fact i begin to be tired of the d20 material (apart of som books like the midnight CS)
A good point to make zemd. This leaning towards crunch books is not simply a WOTC trend. D20 Companies are also part of this trend which is a reason why I haven't purchased many D20 products recently. |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 19:34:15
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SB - You make a valid point in why your not buying much. Personally I've been using Ebay to buy up alot of the older books just for their lore value and been reading them continuously. I've actually had to take a short break and read a few novels the past couple weeks, because my mind was starting to stall trying to absorb as much as i was reading. However, and I agree with most all of ye, the current trend with "crunchy books" is leaving one feeling ripped off and not having gotten your money's worth. However, if they came out with a book chock full of lore I'd be out to the FLGS to pick up a copy in the first week, Just because I'd want to help bolster those demographics of the "bean counters" in hopes that they'd get high enough sales of said book to encourage them to make another.
K |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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The Wanderer
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2004 : 04:13:26
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I am glad to see that I am not the only one who feels this way about "fluff" products.
I've been an avid player of AD&D for almost sixteen years now and I still love the game as much as the first time I played. One of my favorite things was always delving deep into the mythology of the world that I was playing in. I used to sit and read the books cover-to-cover multiple times. Yet I see an increasing trend where books with this kind of information are starting to dwindle (if they are not altogether gone).
One good example of these kinds of books(and I apologize for bringing in another world) were the Van'Ritchen's Guides in the Raveloft universe.
I am hoping that WotC is just going through a particular phase in which they are heavy with the "crunch". I would definetly be someone willing to pay for a nice thick book of Faerunian lore.
P.S. Nice place you guys hyave here :) |
The Wanderer |
Edited by - The Wanderer on 09 Jul 2004 15:51:58 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2004 : 05:48:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Anubis
I am glad to see that I am not the only one who feels this way about "fluff" products.
I've been an avid player of AD&D for almost sixteen years now and I still love the game as much as the first time I played. One of my favorite things was always delving deep into the mythology of the world that I was playing in. I used to sit and read the books cover-to-cover multiple times. Yet I see an increasing trend where books with this kind of information are starting to dwindle (if they are not altogether gone).
One good example of these kinds of books(and I apologize for bringing in another world) were the Van'Ritchen's Guides in the Raveloft universe.
I am hoping that WotC are just going through a particular phase in which they are hevay with the "crunch". I would definetly be someone willing to pay for a nice thick book of Faerunian lore.
P.S. Nice place you guys hyave here :)
Welcome, Anubis!
Actually, I think it acceptable to mention the Van Richten's Guides here... Sure, they were intended for another game world, but there is a wealth of material in those books that can easily be ported over to the Realms. Though I've not done it yet, I've been fiddling with an idea for a vampire NPC, and I fully intended to give him some slight "tweaks" from the material in Van Richten's Guide to Vampires.
Those books have much, much material that can be used in any setting to really throw your PCs for a loop.  |
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Fluff products
