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SiriusBlack
Great Reader

USA
5517 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2004 : 22:48:50

quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
And umm... I had nothing to do with any forthcoming incidents of angry villagers with torchs, pitchforks, and windmills in combination with any game designers once that chat log got posted...

What got the commoners all worked up?

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31773 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2004 : 06:47:02

quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy

Thanks for the link to the review of the PlHB. I think that's an even trade for my posting the PlHB chat log on Enworld ;)

And umm... I had nothing to do with any forthcoming incidents of angry villagers with torchs, pitchforks, and windmills in combination with any game designers once that chat log got posted...

You're right. I wasn't expecting this type of reaction either.

Any idea why the posters over at EN World became so distressed?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage

Edited by - The Sage on 23 Jul 2004 07:05:30

Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2965 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2004 : 07:03:09

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy

Thanks for the link to the review of the PlHB. I think that's an even trade for my posting the PlHB chat log on Enworld ;)

And umm... I had nothing to do with any forthcoming incidents of angry villagers with torchs, pitchforks, and windmills in combination with any game designers once that chat log got posted...
You're right. I was expecting this type of reaction either.

Any idea why the posters over at EN World became so distressed?

What happened, anyway?

Shemmy
Senior Scribe

USA
492 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2004 : 07:17:58

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Any idea why the posters over at EN World became so distressed?

Several reasons:

1) Modrons and Continuity: Most of the hardcore PS folks adored them. So much so, that when the MotP minimized them to the extent it did and rewrote the history of the Arcadian Formians, to make the formerly LG ants the dominant race of Mechanus, that WotC hastily put out the web enhancement to the MotP to detail the Modrons and give them stats.

I can't vouch for this, but supposedly WotC didn't anticipate the visceral reaction that they got by minimizing the Modrons in 3e. Again, while I can't vouch for this I've heard that Jeff Grubb laughed at the other design team folks who had been behind the idea to remove the Modrons by and large in the first place.

Lots of the folks are upset with the PlHB because of no mention of the Modrons at all, plus Andy Collins comments about that. "Modrons, modrons, modrons..." et al. That seriously cheesed some folks off in the way that it seemed to be a blatant disregard for the core fanbase plus the material that has previously been published, to say nothing about continuity.

2) High Standards and Big shoes to fill: Let's face it, when you're comparing a new book to the older Planescape material the bar is set high. I was happy with the material on Sigil when I saw it months before the book came out. However some people felt that the way the question of alignment for the Lady of Pain was handled in the chat was, again, showing a sort of callous disregard for Planescape. Fair or not, it was Mr. Collins statements again that seem to have done to most damage, at least from the folks I've heard from. Might just be sample bias there.

I don't expect to see WotC remake Planescape, I'm just happy to see the nods to it that it got in the PlHB. Kestrel and Cordell did a fine job, and while there's points that I can nitpick in the book they're only nitpicks from me and I'd only complain because I'd be comparing it to the 2e material. It seems it was mostly the implied tone of some of the comments made during the chat that really, REALLY, rubbed some folks the wrong way. (The same thing happened in the chat for the BoED w/ regards to the replacement of the Guardinal Lords).

That said, I've had the book on preorder since I read the Sigil material originally and I appreciate Gwen Kestrel mentioning Planewalker in the chat; was very kind of her. It's not Planescape, but it's probably the closest that we'll get with the current design team, for better or for worse. I'll still be playing old school Planescape w/ 3e rules and I'll still have Modrons ruling Mechanus despite if nebulous groups of 'everyone' thinks that they're "silly".

Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.

Edited by - Shemmy on 23 Jul 2004 07:21:32

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31773 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2004 : 07:24:59

Ah. I knew the "modron" fact would cause some contention, so I was rather expecting some debate over that material (or lack thereof).

You're right about the "High Standards and Big shoes to fill" aspect of the discussion though. I'd thought about this several times to myself when reading through the tome. It just seems a little strange that other PS devotees weren't expecting this. As you say, MotP already started the break with traditional PS material. I was already of the thought that the PlHB would be no different, so I found it particularly confusing when other PS fans couldn't comprehend that fact.

Shemmy
Senior Scribe

USA
492 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2004 : 07:31:34

However I will say that despite high standards I'm pleased as punch with the treatment that Sigil received. While the city itself was described as LN in alignment, which in and of itself, has provoked debate on various boards, we realized something that makes it fit. Re-reading the DMG material on city alignment, the LN doesn't apply to the populace itself, but rather to the city governments approach to the populace. In that light the LN alignment works dead on and I can't find fault with it.

While I don't agree with the "Lady of Pain: LN, etc" part personally, I can rationalize it. It probably would have been best to give no alignment, or unknown alignment, but I'm not the writer. (Plus in the absence of having published anything professionally myself, outside of being cited in an EPA study, I can't say much now can I).

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31773 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2004 : 07:46:36

So, the alignment of Sigil as LN was taken in perspective of the post-Faction War environment. I wonder, would it have been different before the war...?

quote:
While I don't agree with the "Lady of Pain: LN, etc" part personally, I can rationalize it. It probably would have been best to give no alignment, or unknown alignment, but I'm not the writer. (Plus in the absence of having published anything professionally myself, outside of being cited in an EPA study, I can't say much now can I).

Well, as I've said before, I don't particularly agree with this either. But then, we are in an advantageous position of having access to 2e PS material. So, we're free to ignore this assignment of LN to the LoP, so long as WotC don't devise a way to make the alignment of the LoP necessary in some way. The next thing you know, they'll be assigning her domains...

Edited by - The Sage on 23 Jul 2004 07:47:41

Shemmy
Senior Scribe

USA
492 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2004 : 07:53:07

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

So, the alignment of Sigil as LN was taken in perspective of the post-Faction War environment. I wonder, would it have been different before the war...?

Eh, probably not. If anything it would have been more firmly LN with the presence of the Fraternity of Order, Harmonium, and Mercykillers at the height of their power and influence. As it is, the new regime, so to speak, probably has less a firm grasp on power though they have more popular support from the common people of the city. How much of a back seat they'll take to the Golden Lords and various persons like Zadara the titan, Estevan and the Planar Trade Consortium, and my namesake is a good question. I'd like to think that the council will grow a spine :)

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31773 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2004 : 08:04:06

I'm sure the Golden Lords have seized upon the power vacuum that was created shortly after the Lady's proclamation. I suppose they've even started supporting (whether in secret or not) certain small time guilds thereby thrusting them to the front of the political stage in the City of Doors. They'd have too. They have to have some means of competing with those factions that reconstituted after the War.

It makes for some perilous times ahead...

The Wanderer
Learned Scribe

USA
132 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2004 : 13:50:35

So, Sage... Being the hardcore PS player that you are, what was your opinion on this Particular tome?

The Wanderer

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31773 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2004 : 14:38:13

Give me a few more days to actually finish reading the tome. It would be unfair to pass judgement when not all of the material that is presented has been solidly read through.