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Rabilard
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
 Posted - 31 May 2004 : 11:53:28
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I've noticed that there are whole societies of Illithids in the Underdark, possessing Wizard levels in the upper 20s and low 30s. Now, IMC, psionics are present and I've recently gotten the Expanded Psionics Handbook for a relatively clean break from 3rd ed. So, two questions arise:
Firstly, should ALL the mind flayers with wizard levels have those levels converted to the Psion class? Ignoring those special cases where the wizard class is plot important, unless for Faerun it's plot important that ALL illithids make use of the wizard class.
Secondly, should it be a complete conversion, because while wizard levels are not associated for it, as it makes use of spell-like abilities than personal spellcasting power, with Psion levels it WOULD be associated. As all Illithids are considered to have 9 levels of Psion already, those truly powerful Illithids would have levels in the upper thirties and low forties. Truly epic opponents that would make a beefed up Elminster squirm. And by that logic, what do we make of the Overminds? Wouldn't most of these mega Illithids completely trump its powers, embarrasingly so?
The solution (if the second question requires a solution) might be to knock of 5 or 9 levels of the Associated class. What do you think?
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By heart and hand |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 12:39:43
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This is a very interesting question...
For my own campaign, I rely on a subtle mix of both wizard and telepath illithids. As a personal opinion, I prefer not to have all of my encounters being based around psion-mind flayers. I'd like to think that despite their proclivity for the powers of the mind, some mind flayers would see the inherent benefits of mastering the arcane arts. I've even toyed with the idea of making illithid sorcerers more predominant than illithid wizards. So, overall, I'd say that I prefer a mixture of both rather than a set standard.
As for the second part of your post, there was an old PS treatise written up about the 'origins' of the Illithid race which relates certain facts from the Sargonne Prophecies. In that particular work there was some points that address much of what you have just asked here. I'll look for the article and see whether there are any points worth bringing here...
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Rabilard
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 12:50:48
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One of the cities has an Elder Brain w/ 20 levels of Psion so add that to his natural and he's a 40th level Psion. Nvm what I said about the Elder brains, they're good.
Another thought: Can there BE psionic liches? I seem to remember that once upon a time there could be, but can't remember whether that was a 2nd edition fad that translated to 3rd or not. |
By heart and hand |
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Rabilard
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 12:52:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
This is a very interesting question...
For my own campaign, I rely on a subtle mix of both wizard and telepath illithids. As a personal opinion, I prefer not to have all of my encounters being based around psion-mind flayers. I'd like to think that despite their proclivity for the powers of the mind, some mind flayers would see the inherent benefits of mastering the arcane arts. I've even toyed with the idea of making illithid sorcerers more predominant than illithid wizards. So, overall, I'd say that I prefer a mixture of both rather than a set standard.
As for the second part of your post, there was an old PS treatise written up about the 'origins' of the Illithid race which relates certain facts from the Sargonne Prophecies. In that particular work there was some points that address much of what you have just asked here. I'll look for the article and see whether there are any points worth bringing here...
Thanks Sage, looking forward to it. |
By heart and hand |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 12:59:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Rabilard
Another thought: Can there BE psionic liches? I seem to remember that once upon a time there could be, but can't remember whether that was a 2nd edition fad that translated to 3rd or not.
Psionic liches... yes, they feature on ocassion in several 2e modules (although the only ones I know of are PS and RL).
In fact I think Monte Cook touches upon this in one of his many Malhavoc tomes... I'll have to check.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 13:19:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Rabilard
Firstly, should ALL the mind flayers with wizard levels have those levels converted to the Psion class?
No... in Faerun, I'd dare say that half of the illithids out there should remain wizards, with the other half remaining psions... The best FR solution is to have all illithids progress as Cerebremancers. Each level of the PrC increases both your arcane spellcasting level AND your manifester level (a "Psionic Mystic Theurge" of sorts)
I haven't read this PrC properly yet, but I believe that a Mind Flayer only needs to take 3 levels of wizard to qualify for this (because their innate psionic abilities makes them meet the psionic prerequisites of the class - i.e. Able to manifest 2nd-level powers. But maybe one level of psion is required to get one "official" manifester level to improve upon thereafter. After this, it's clear sailing though. I can't really see why an illithid wouldn't go that route now that I think of it... perfect Mind Flayer FR combo!
So you'd have: Mind Flayer Wizard3/Psion1/Cerebremancer10 for 7th-level arcane spells and 6th-level psionic powers. That'd be the ultimate "Illithid Superior!" 
PS: The XPH details the "Psionic Mind Flayer". I believe they start with a bunch of powers and 75 reserve power pts, but I am not sure. Anyway: it's high, and Mind Blast is unlimited. Add those 75pt to what you get from the actual class levels and you have a very nasty beast... (Temporal Acceleration turned on, and you get a wizard casting 9 spells per round if he so desires...) |
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Rabilard
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 17:02:05
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| Hey PDK, yeah, when you mentioned it, Cerebremancer sounds great. Sounds overpowered, but I'll let the player's broken bodies complain a few times before I check it. And the Psionic Mindflayer has 9 (!) effective levels of Psion, so your example character has 9th level powers (holy crap!). And the worst part is, unlike a Mystic Theurge, the Psion and the Wizard are based around the same ability. Now THAT's broken! |
By heart and hand |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 20:27:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Rabilard
And the Psionic Mindflayer has 9 (!) effective levels of Psion, so your example character has 9th level powers (holy crap!).
Whoa!  Ok, I missed that one... so you're saying that Mind Flayers just need 3 levels of wizard to qualify for the class?!?  |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2004 : 04:11:57
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| With illithids being so powerful, what keeps them from expanding and dominating the Underdark? I realize that they aren't all that numerous, but with even a few of those 20/30/40 levelers, most battles would be pretty lopsided. 9th level psionic powers with augmented power points, along with wizard spells, would demolish most foes. And with every battle won, new mind-slaves are added, making the illithid forces even larger. And if the Underdark is too perilous, the surface is much less fierce, and I don't think there are enough epic chars to thwart even a few illithid communities. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Rabilard
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2004 : 05:57:33
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| You think that's bad? What about Mind Flayer's with the Thrallherd PrC? Basically it makes dominating easier and also gives you a Leadership feat that refills 24 hours every day! HOLY CRAP! I've come to belive the Mind Flayer's aren't interested in Leaving the Underdark until they've brought it under their sway completely, which could be difficult with the Drow, Duergar, and Aboleths, being so much more numerous. |
By heart and hand |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2004 : 06:12:55
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| That's a little too creepy. Even worse, the lack of large numbers is limiting, but illithids don't always have to kill their opponents. If they dominate even 10% of their enemies, they can still muster a nice army, especially if the captives are casters. Imagine a psionic/magical assault on Sorcere, dominating the mages, then turning them loose to tear down the cavern. I'd give it, say, three hours for the drow to either wipe out most of their own mages or for the wizards to destroy the whole city. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2004 : 23:28:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
With illithids being so powerful, what keeps them from expanding and dominating the Underdark? <snip>
They're evil, that's why. Evil creatures, as complicated as you want them to be, always have a single base obscession: me. So even if they all think alike and sometimes display a "collective" attitude, they still individually strive for personal power and eliminate one another. Even the most enduring collective long-term campaigns end up with a major obstacle: the leadership of the said campaign is compromised by the scheming of underlings...
That, and Duergar: I believe the Duergar is a major pain in their squidish behind, especially with RoF Duergar Feats such as Iron Mind, or other psionic Duergar cabals and Psychic Warrior cabals that are next to immune to psionics... |
Edited by - Purple Dragon Knight on 02 Jun 2004 00:40:27 |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2004 : 06:44:23
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Not to mention the Drow... They have a lot of high levels as well, not to forget vastly superior numbers - Menzoberranzan is a rather small city for Drow standards.
And most of them aren't exactly weak of mind either. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2004 : 21:07:26
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| That's true. What if the mind flayers took over casters, psions, and anyone else around with controlling powers? If each of these captives dominated a few others of similar ability, the progression would increase expotentially. Obviously powerful individuals will be resistant to control, but as numbers grow, others could just use counter/weakening spells to immobilize of otherwise make helpless the victims. It might take a few years, but a sizable magical/psionic force could be formed, led by illithids. Their powers are unusual enough, with psionics being so rare, that not many foes could stand against them for long. The Underdark might not be the best place to start, though, because what scarce psionic power there is in Faerun is concentrated there. Moving quietly, many valuable mind-slaves could be taken. Cormyr, for example, would be a prime target for such invasion, with its weakened state and plentiful war wizards, From there, who knows? Perhaps the small number of mind flayers could increase with access to virtually unlimited magical supplies. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2004 : 11:13:36
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I doubt the ilithids could pull this off. The moment someone influental notices, it'll be over.
And wizards aren't half as easy to control as one might think... Not to mention clerics, the fact that deities prolly wont allow clerics casting their spells against others of the faith when under such a control. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2004 : 15:14:49
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| Armies need food, so unless each thrall gets a Ring of Sustenance, forget this. I doubt illithids would ever have a "farming" division... |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2004 : 10:10:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Rabilard
Firstly, should ALL the mind flayers with wizard levels have those levels converted to the Psion class?
No... in Faerun, I'd dare say that half of the illithids out there should remain wizards, with the other half remaining psions... The best FR solution is to have all illithids progress as Cerebremancers. Each level of the PrC increases both your arcane spellcasting level AND your manifester level (a "Psionic Mystic Theurge" of sorts)
I haven't read this PrC properly yet, but I believe that a Mind Flayer only needs to take 3 levels of wizard to qualify for this (because their innate psionic abilities makes them meet the psionic prerequisites of the class - i.e. Able to manifest 2nd-level powers. But maybe one level of psion is required to get one "official" manifester level to improve upon thereafter. After this, it's clear sailing though. I can't really see why an illithid wouldn't go that route now that I think of it... perfect Mind Flayer FR combo!
So you'd have: Mind Flayer Wizard3/Psion1/Cerebremancer10 for 7th-level arcane spells and 6th-level psionic powers. That'd be the ultimate "Illithid Superior!"
PS: The XPH details the "Psionic Mind Flayer". I believe they start with a bunch of powers and 75 reserve power pts, but I am not sure. Anyway: it's high, and Mind Blast is unlimited. Add those 75pt to what you get from the actual class levels and you have a very nasty beast... (Temporal Acceleration turned on, and you get a wizard casting 9 spells per round if he so desires...)
I have yet to DM a campaign, but I like some of the ideas that Purple Dragon has presented. If this type of question came up in a campaign I was running, I'd like to think I'd do the same...or at least try to  .
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2004 : 22:38:01
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| Purple Dragon Knight, why couldn't there be a farming division? Just because illithids are evil doesn't mean that they have to be impractical. Assigning certain mind-slaves to perform the more mundane tasks is only logical. It is true that wizards are difficult to control; perhaps items of some sort similar to Slave/Master rings could be used on the more formidable. As for clerics, I wasn't really thinking about them. Not only would their gods dissaprove, and possibly intervine (athough the dwarven cleric in the Crystal Shard was manipulated without interference), they would likely be unable to gain new spells. Besides, their magic is much less versatile and generally not as battle-oriented as wizards'. As for the influential individuals noticing, with high-level illithids, weilding both psionics and wizardry, even the Chosen could be given a run for their money. This is especially true considering a lack of potent psionicts dedicated to protecting Faerun (at least that I've seen) |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
Edited by - Sourcemaster2 on 10 Jun 2004 22:41:31 |
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Should Mind Flayer Wizards be Psions?
