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varyar
Learned Scribe
134 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Sep 2024 : 15:37:07
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One problem. You go too far in some statements. Samarach didn't sink or disappear in its entirety. It's clearly on the 4e map. It CAN be argued that portions of it disappeared mind you, as the 4e map is less than clear, and the shapes don't exactly match. What could be said though is that if you look at the map... the thin "river Sambrar" looks more like a "wide inland bay" on the 4e map, such that the cities and villages along it may have transferred to Abeir (my preference).
On this idea, just to share, what I'd been planning was that these transferred lands ended up somewhere NOT safe in Abeir and most of the inhabitants fled for their lives. After hearing the stuff from Ed on what's in Abeir, I decided that the aberration inhabited jungles in the southern part of Irronther made for the perfect place. I have my own plans for where the former inhabitants fled to, but "when these monster inhabited lands return to Abeir" it opens up a great opportunity to have adventurers being hired to venture into these ruined cities and trying to clear out the monsters. Similarly, the other chultan lands that "sank" may have similarly transferred. Ed also mentions in the same presentation that there's a northern section of Irronther around Lake Yaeranche called "The Cauldron" inhabited and led by human warlords and specifically wizards. So, it may be that some of the people managed to escape to this northern region and regather themselves from different backgrounds and make a new home. Of course, since these lands wouldn't "come back to Toril" it wouldn't affect Toril after the second sundering overmuch.... but it could be a good story for developing Abeir... and there may exist naturally occurring portals between Abeir and Toril in the transferred lands. I think we should very much develop these stories and not have all these lands returning to Toril "unchanged", and part of that involves the development of Abeir to a small degree as well. But, I guess we'll be getting a new campaign sourcebook in a year and we'll see what happens.
Oh, and as a final note, and this is just my personal taste.... I favor a very much more heretical viewpoint for Leira and Mask's involvement. I very much like the idea of them acting in concert to arrange Cyric's fall, and I even more like the idea that Leira at least was doing this under the direction of Ao. That being said, Mask may only now realize that he was being used, and perhaps now there is more antipathy between the two beings (after all, Mask lost power in the intrigues). This too makes a good story that people might uncover over time.
Also, whereas Mystra is known as "The Hidden One" and also Ao is known as "the Hidden One"..... I also picture Leira as "The Hidden One", such that she was "hidden" and not dead over the past century... and there is some strange linkage between the three. The great lie that Ao spreads of his ultimate power over all other gods ..... who knows how much that aids himself and Leira as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 04 Sep 2024 15:40:18 |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
953 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2024 : 20:08:46
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| Leira and Mask in cahoots in not as heretical or outlandish as Sleyvas may think. I too favor this line of inquiry. Maybe Mystra hid Leira as she hid Eilistraee until the Second Sundering. |
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varyar
Learned Scribe
134 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2024 : 01:16:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Leira and Mask in cahoots in not as heretical or outlandish as Sleyvas may think. I too favor this line of inquiry. Maybe Mystra hid Leira as she hid Eilistraee until the Second Sundering.
Actually, based on Faiths and Avatars entry for Leira (I was looking at it just to see what it said), her only allies listed are Mask (but betrayed by him) and Azuth.... this even more lends me to the story of them working in cahoots to take down Cyric. She had no foes listed either.
I've said some of what I've proposed in bits and pieces throughout these forums. The gist is that the Time of Troubles was setting up the second sundering.... and Ao had a rough idea that it was coming.... and so did Savras. Just some stray thoughts for discussion in case there is interest.
Godsbane absorbed and hid the essence of Leira rather than killing her (much as how it absorbed Kelemvor).
Leira and Mask were aware of the events that were preordained to occur during the time of troubles. In other words, Ao WANTED the tablets of fate stolen, and wanted the dark three to do it. Unbeknownst to the dark three, this THEFT was aided by the god of thieves. This was also aided by LIES that the THEFT of the tablets of fate would empower the dark three to defy even Ao.
Neither the Cyrinishad NOR The True Life of Cyric are truths about the mortal life of Cyric. This is because Cyric's early life is nothing more than implanted memories, and even he didn't know the truth. Some believe that Cyric's "mortal" body is even an "incarnation" (ala Old Empires) of Mask, given that Mask was a deity within the Mulhorandi Pantheon as well as the Faerunian Pantheon, which could imply that Cyric had the blood of Mask in his heritage.
The being known as Phalse, who resembled a "beholder" with mouth stalks instead of eyestalks and also resembled a deepspawn (a being capable of making "duplicate" spawn ), which was involved in the creation of the immortal construct being known as Alias... was in fact Leira. Thus Leira was involved in the creation of Alias.
The "mortal" being known as Midnight, who had the true name of Ariel (Leira spelled backwards), was ... unbeknownst to herself... an Alias clone with implanted memories created by Phalse/Leira.
The god of Divinations, Savras, VAGUELY knew of the coming of both the Time of Troubles and the Spellplague. He knew that Abeir and Toril would "collide". He knew that the goddess of magic would die, and he knew that the best defense lay in hiding the truth of the plans that he and Mystra would set in motion. In doing this, he sought the aid of the Mistress of Lies, Leira, enticing her with the knowledge that she too would die.
So it was that Leira set about a plot with Mask to create beings who would ascend to take the roles of the dark three (or in other views, the original roles of Jergal) and Mystra.
Some believe that Jergal was involved in this plotting by Savras, Leira, and Mask.... for after all, he was the Final Scribe who knew the fate of all who would die. As the "Lord of the End of Everything" he sought to oppose Shar as the goddess of loss seeking to take his own power.
The "death" of Mystra by Helm during the Time of Troubles on the bifros... um, Celestial Stairway.... was staged as well. Helm was serving Ao and had not been cast out of the heavens by Ao.... but he didn't have to kill her if her whole goal was to fake her own death. If Ao wanted her death faked, to serve his own interests, it would serve him to hide her away so that she could return later.
So, what I'm getting at here.... Mystra needed someone to fall in her name so that Savras' predictions would be true... and she (the hidden one) needed to be "hidden" away until such time as the truth might be needed to be revealed.
Mask and Leira betrayed Cyric by Leira instilling herself through a mortal to become the embodiment of a divine lie.... the Cyrinishad. Leira then "infected" Cyric by making him believe her lie about his own divinity. In this way she continued to hide her machinations from the goddess Shar, while keeping tabs on her as well.
Leira further betrayed Cyric by aiding Iyachtu Xvim in the great lie that he had become Bane reborn.
Mask further betrayed Cyric by aiding Kelemvor to steal the role of the god of death. It is canon that Mask did this by cooperating with Midnight/Mystra and revealing that he had hidden away the "soul" of Kelemvor.
Helm did not "die" in a foolish fight with Tyr over the hand of Tymora. His death was faked with the aid of Leira, and he became hidden away in the Court of Illusion. This too had been preordained and prepared for in return for his service to Mystra in the ToT.
Leira, riding in the mind of Cyric, finally betrayed him and Shar as he sought to kill Midnight/Mystra. Some even believe that the karsestone was stolen by Mask from Shar during Cyric's raid of dweomerheart and that Mask/Leira used the heart of the "momentary god" in this effort.
Midnight/Mystra's "death" did not cause dweomerheart to explode. It caused it to lose connection to the weave of Toril.... thus in theory turning everywhere that was "weave" into shadow weave. However, even as Midnight/Mystra "died", "hidden" Mystra I was released to take on her old job again (but she was severely weakened, especially with the loss of her divine domain of Dweomerheart).
Dweomerheart meanwhile became "attached" to Abeir, where Leira's Court of Illusion and several other divine domains had similarly become attached. This would include the divine domains of the Mulhorandi and Untheric Pantheons.
Remember... Mask was a god of Mulhorand as well as Faerun, so . The god Nergal had also been a god of Unther, and some believe may have had some ties to Jergal (and that many gods of Netheril actually had ties to the gods of Unther and Mulhorand).
When Lathander, Tyr, and Sune "imprisoned" Cyric in his own divine domain, they instead detached it from Toril .... and in so doing they too would be forced to Abeir. This has ties to why Tyr and Lathander "disappeared", and rumors of Tyr "giving up his godhood to Torm" had ties to Leira smuggling him to Abeir such that he wouldn't immediately awaken the primordial powers of Abeir.
The obvious question that comes out of all this is "why all these subterfuges?". There's many beliefs, but which are true? Who knows. Some believe it was Ao's attempt to block Shar. Some believe it was Ao wanting to send gods to Abeir to give the mortals being forced there someone to hopefully protect them. Some believe it was Ao sending gods to Abeir to expand his own power in that world, because in truth... he didn't "create" this world... he only banished his enemies there in a last ditch effort to protect Toril. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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varyar
Learned Scribe
134 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2024 : 13:56:29
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Fascinating theories!
My own take on Leira, as hinted at in the book here, is that she (and her most devoted followers) see illusion and deception not as the end in itself, but as the means to perceiving the hidden and greater truth. Much like you need to learn to master the rules of an instrument or language in order to skillfully bend or break them, you have to master the art of illusion in order to recognize reality.
This poem (adapted from a real one by John Godfrey Saxe) illustrates the idea in satirical form.
The Blind Men and the Manticore
(by Jonagos of Nimbral)
IT was six men of Halruaa
To magic much inclined
Who went to see the Manticore
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.
The First approached the Manticore
And, happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"Azuth bless me!—but the Manticore
Is very like a wall!"
The Second, feeling of a fang,
Cried "Ho! What have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of a Manticore
Is very like a spear!"
The Third approached the animal.
And, happening to take
a deadly spine within his hands.
Thus boldly up and spake:—
"I see," quoth he, "the Manticore
Is very like a snake!"
The Fourth reached out his eager hand,
And felt about the knee;
"What most this wondrous beast is like.
Is mighty plain," quoth he;
"'Tis clear enough the Manticore
Is very like a tree!"
The Fifth who chanced to touch the wing,
Said, "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of a Manticore
Is very like a fan!"
The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Manticore
Is very like a rope!"
And so the men of Halruaa
Disputed loud and long.
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right
And all were in the wrong! |
Out Now on the DMs Guild:
Leira the Mistshadow: https://www.dmsguild.com/product/493852/Leira-the-Mistshadow
Vandria Gilmadrith, Lady of Grief: https://www.dmsguild.com/product/481871/Vandria-Gilmadrith-Lady-of-Grief |
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Leira: The Mistshadow
