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chargerrich
Acolyte
USA
11 Posts |
 Posted - 06 May 2024 : 17:11:45
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Hello fellow lore scholars!
I am compiling a history of the drow and have run into what I can only assume is a conflict (perhaps not, certainly open to new information) and was hoping to gain some insight on how to address and/or some general thoughts and feedback.
So the general thesis of my research is documenting, delineating and demarcing the evolution of and contrasting differences between the Ilythiir dark elves that migrated to faerun from the faerie and the modern drow of the underdark.
Part of that contrast is to make clear that the dark elves that migrated on or about -27,000 DR were not worshippers of Lolth and in fact did not even know she existed.
With that in mind, my confusion/conflict arises from two specific events that we have canonical dates for (or semi-canonical depending on your view of novel originated lore).
It is made crystal clear in the novel Evermeet: Island of Elves that Lolth was not even made aware of the early Ilythiir dark elves (or Faerun for that matter) until -24,400 DR as told in the "from the abyss" story (chapter 8 I believe).
This is the story of the heroine Kethryllia descending into the abyss to save her consort, meeting Kiaransalee who provides aid to the young archmage warrior that subsequently alerts Lolth to her presence and through scying (and Ka'Narist's dagger) discovers a realm called Faerun that is populated with dark elves as potential followers ("Lloth would follow the elven lovers to whatever world they called home, and see if she might stake out a claim there.")
That story also strongly intimates - if not flat out confirms - that Lolth did not even have mortal followers at that time ("She had little hope of corrupting such elves as these she had seen this day, but did not even the evil and insane Kiaranselee have her followers?").
So if as of -24,400 DR Lolth was not aware of the dark elves (and perhaps did not even have the concept of mortal followers, which does not seem logical but i digress) then how does one rationalize that with the many statements made leading up the War of the Seldarine in -30,000 DR almost 6 millennia earlier where it is stated many times that in her pre-tanar'ri form as the wife of Corellon, Araushnee she was ("the main goddess of the dark elves, whose nightly complexion matched her own").
Are these a different species of "dark elf" than the ones covered in the dawn ages of the realms who would be exiled to the underdark after the fourth crown war?
There are other minor facets that lack strong logic (the Ilythiir WERE worshipping her son Vhaeraun and most wild elves of Miyeritar WERE woshipping her daughter Eilistraee, etc.) so perhaps the book story should just be tossed?
Or perhaps there is other canonical sources that might clarify but I have missed?
At the end of the day, I am trying to nail down the most logical and cannonical model of both THE WHEN and THe HOW Lolth became the primary god of the drow as one of 3 or 4 demarcations of the Ilythiir "becoming" drow (the others being the Dark Disaster, Corellon's Curse and the subsequent official Dark Descent into the underdark).
I really appreciate any and all feedback!
Thank you.
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2024 : 00:03:15
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There was a shift in how the information was presented: the timeline in Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves outlines that Ilythiir was founded after Aryvandaar and makes no mention of the anti-Seldarine conflict in Arvandor, so the assumption was that the Ilythiiri elves came later and were already corrupted by Lolth. Evermeet: Island of Elves introduced the war in Arvandor, the flight of the elves from Tintageer to found Aryvandaar, only to find Ilythiir already in existence, so that immediately created a conflict.
I'm going to hazard, given the novel and sourcebook came out close together and also simultaneously with TSR's mass-implosion, it was not possible to coordinate the source material editorially in the way it would have been normally possible, resulting in some confusion. Fans worked on reconciling that for a decade until Grand History of the Realms came up with the idea of a sort-of Ilythiir being established early on (in 27,000 BDR), then being subsumed by Lolth, then getting blown up in the Sundering, then Ilythiir being effectively re-founded afterwards. That does have the benefit of explaining why the Ilythiir hate the other elven kindreds so much, they blame them for almost wiping them out (however inadvertently).
It does create a rather large timeline gap between Lolth's betrayal of the Seldarine and actually gaining mortal followers. I think that is sort-of explainable by Lolth being banished to the Abyss as a tanar'ri, not with the idea of her remaining or becoming a god, but then she managed it unexpectedly and then gained new power from subverting the Ilythiiri. I note a lot of later material and discussion of drow backstory in 4E and 5E tends to elide over the whole point.
Though some recent sources suggest that the subversion of the dark elves into the drow has happened on many different worlds for many different reasons, and seems to be a semi-inevitable consequence, apart from certain worlds (Krynn is namechecked as world with "dark elves" of a kind but they have not yet become drow). So it is possible that other worlds were subverted by Lolth long before Toril and she gained dark elf and drow worshippers on those worlds millennia before they appeared on Toril. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2435 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2024 : 03:00:06
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quote:
Originally posted by chargerrich
It is made crystal clear in the novel Evermeet: Island of Elves that Lolth was not even made aware of the early Ilythiir dark elves (or Faerun for that matter) until -24,400 DR as told in the "from the abyss" story (chapter 8 I believe).
This is the story of the heroine Kethryllia descending into the abyss to save her consort, meeting Kiaransalee who provides aid to the young archmage warrior that subsequently alerts Lolth to her presence and through scying (and Ka'Narist's dagger) discovers a realm called Faerun that is populated with dark elves as potential followers ("Lloth would follow the elven lovers to whatever world they called home, and see if she might stake out a claim there.")
That story also strongly intimates - if not flat out confirms - that Lolth did not even have mortal followers at that time ("She had little hope of corrupting such elves as these she had seen this day, but did not even the evil and insane Kiaranselee have her followers?").
So if as of -24,400 DR Lolth was not aware of the dark elves (and perhaps did not even have the concept of mortal followers, which does not seem logical but i digress) then how does one rationalize that with the many statements made leading up the War of the Seldarine in -30,000 DR almost 6 millennia earlier where it is stated many times that in her pre-tanar'ri form as the wife of Corellon, Araushnee she was ("the main goddess of the dark elves, whose nightly complexion matched her own").
There is no conflict, because it's not in the same framework as the timelines in Cormanthyr, etc.
The timelines are direct description, unless noted otherwise.
Evermeet: Island of Elves is supposed to be an in-Universe narration by the elves. It's not even "the official history of the elvenkind on Abeir-Toril", but an export variant of such official history. Which is why it has some rather obvious and amusing lacunae.
And even if this part was truly the best effort, how reliable do you think their knowledge of this particular subject could be?
It's a myth, I tell you! Myth! Myth!  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 08 May 2024 04:28:51 |
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Ilythiir Dark Elves, Drow and Lolth
