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DoveArrow
Seeker

97 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2023 :  06:25:18  Show Profile Send DoveArrow a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren


I do not understand that point. The most detailed maps of Faer#251;n include some settlements of a few hundreds of inhabitants, that are days away from anything else. So in those detailed regions, we can assume there is nothing more out there but farmstead and forgotten ruins. This is a much lower density than real world middle ages, which can only mean the world is too dangerous to explore further and found new towns. It was already a points of light setting.



I'm just trying to answer the question objectively.
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thenightgaunt
Acolyte

USA
41 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2023 :  14:54:25  Show Profile Send thenightgaunt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Seems you already encountered the topic in the other forum ;)



Oh yes. Though it's definitely been great getting a broader examination of the topic. Your mention of Ben Riggs was what led me over there. I do hope he's actually writing a new book on modern D&D history. I loved reading Shannon Appelcline's Designers & Dragons but was sad that he had to stop at '09 (his posts after are neat though but don't have the same level of detail as the book) but then he did write it in '13.

Each forum seems to be providing a different mindset it's answers to the question and different records as well. :)

Edited by - thenightgaunt on 11 Nov 2023 15:00:00
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36782 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2023 :  03:13:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by thenightgaunt

(https://web.archive.org/web/20190621015213/https://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/tabletop/13729-An-Interview-With-Jeremy-Crawford-Co-Designer-and-Editor-of-Dung).





Heh, "Editor of Dung"

I boldfaced that because it amuses me and I wanted to draw attention to it.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Nov 2023 03:14:26
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AJA
Senior Scribe

USA
750 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2023 :  06:16:58  Show Profile Send AJA a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by thenightgaunt
I would love to read the thing you mentioned by Ben Riggs (I googled it and now need to add Slaying the Dragon to my "to read" list. Thanks!). Do you remember where he mentioned that? So much gets lost online when sites go down so if it's gone I understand.


Slaying the Dragon is certainly an interesting read, if only for the unique interviews Riggs gets with the people who were actually there at the time (inherent biases and all). But, Good Lord, his prose is so purple that even Gary Gygax would roll his multisyllabic eyes and say, dude.

For the second part, there is discussion on Ben's 4E GenCon seminar in an ENWorld Thread, here:
Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023
https://www.enworld.org/threads/ben-riggs-what-the-heck-happened-with-4th-edition-seminar-at-gen-con-2023.699181/

Not sure if it's the same as Zero is referencing, but it does touch on the internal politics at WOTC at the time.


AJA
YAFRP
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4430 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2023 :  18:14:48  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, one thing I disagree with about the article was that it says the murder-suicide wasn't the big issue. We know that this is the reason why the DM toolset, mapping, and online/virtual tabletop never got released- the guy who killed his estranged wife, then himself had all of his works under protection and firewalls that no one could access, rendering months of work forever inaccessible. That was a HUGE blow to the type of game they intended to be released as was their "promise".

As for the DDI content, yeah I've been saying this was a significant reason why sales were so bad to begin with. My group would chip in and buy a DDI account (well, mine to be exact) and then they could make as many characters as they wanted to with ALL content from every source-book and Dragon article made. Imagine going to D&D:Beyond and paying $10 to access every monster, item, class, subclass, feat, spell, and race to be used as much and as often as you wanted!! You now have to pay piece-meal for things OR whole supplements for their online use. Need the Cavalier subclass, that's $1.99. You want that magic shield? $1.99. Those 3 feats, 2 spells, and 1 monster? That'll be $10.99 + tax.

IF ONLY we had seen this level of diligence back then, it would've pushed more book sales (digital is nearly completely cost free from the company and all profit).

I will admit that I was initially bummed about magic missile being a to-hit spell (later changed to auto-hit), but made sense from a standpoint of monster roles. It had the problem of making odd scenarios where a 1st level mage uses auto-hit MM to kill a level 18 Demon minion with 1 hp. Of course, I'd never throw that at 1st level characters but the optics arent good.
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DoveArrow
Seeker

97 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2023 :  23:02:43  Show Profile Send DoveArrow a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

So, one thing I disagree with about the article was that it says the murder-suicide wasn't the big issue. We know that this is the reason why the DM toolset, mapping, and online/virtual tabletop never got released- the guy who killed his estranged wife, then himself had all of his works under protection and firewalls that no one could access, rendering months of work forever inaccessible. That was a HUGE blow to the type of game they intended to be released as was their "promise".

As for the DDI content, yeah I've been saying this was a significant reason why sales were so bad to begin with. My group would chip in and buy a DDI account (well, mine to be exact) and then they could make as many characters as they wanted to with ALL content from every source-book and Dragon article made. Imagine going to D&D:Beyond and paying $10 to access every monster, item, class, subclass, feat, spell, and race to be used as much and as often as you wanted!! You now have to pay piece-meal for things OR whole supplements for their online use. Need the Cavalier subclass, that's $1.99. You want that magic shield? $1.99. Those 3 feats, 2 spells, and 1 monster? That'll be $10.99 + tax.

IF ONLY we had seen this level of diligence back then, it would've pushed more book sales (digital is nearly completely cost free from the company and all profit).

I will admit that I was initially bummed about magic missile being a to-hit spell (later changed to auto-hit), but made sense from a standpoint of monster roles. It had the problem of making odd scenarios where a 1st level mage uses auto-hit MM to kill a level 18 Demon minion with 1 hp. Of course, I'd never throw that at 1st level characters but the optics arent good.



I actually like the a la carte aspect of it better. If I want it, I can buy it. If I'm poor, it's not like it all goes away. What I bought previously is still there.

Y'know... until the next edition comes along.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4430 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2023 :  23:33:19  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DoveArrow


I actually like the a la carte aspect of it better. If I want it, I can buy it. If I'm poor, it's not like it all goes away. What I bought previously is still there.

Y'know... until the next edition comes along.



Oh, it's a great way to dish out content! I myself have grabbed a few things here and there and my group still uses a single person contact for all the unlocked stuff he had. But he still had to purchase it via the site, so it wasn't freely put out. I really wish this idea was around during 4e (and the level of sophisticated tech for VTTs), I think it would've really thrived.

As for the next edition, yeah I think I'm gonna pass on that one. From what I've seen, I just don't see much of a reason to change over?
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7975 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2023 :  21:09:59  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
D&D has suffered bad press blaming it for murder-suicide, insanities, religious extremism, terrorism, and other mentally unstable stuff for decades. Long before even 2E was conceived, let alone 4E.

So I don't feel that those subjects have any particular relevance exclusive to 4E.

And I don't feel that "journalism" repeating those scandalous old ideas in new contexts is really providing useful, unbiased, factual information of any kind. Sensationalism and controversy might make for attractive bold headlines but it's not really fact or news.

Anyone bringing that stuff up again and again as filler is conducting rather poor interviews or journalism, in my opinion.

[/Ayrik]
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4430 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2023 :  14:42:03  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

D&D has suffered bad press blaming it for murder-suicide, insanities, religious extremism, terrorism, and other mentally unstable stuff for decades. Long before even 2E was conceived, let alone 4E.

So I don't feel that those subjects have any particular relevance exclusive to 4E.

And I don't feel that "journalism" repeating those scandalous old ideas in new contexts is really providing useful, unbiased, factual information of any kind. Sensationalism and controversy might make for attractive bold headlines but it's not really fact or news.

Anyone bringing that stuff up again and again as filler is conducting rather poor interviews or journalism, in my opinion.



To count these elements out as simply "filler", I feel, is being a bit disingenuous. I dont think these were the only reasons for 4E being discontinued, WotC REALLY had a bunch of blunders to blame on themselves. For starters, the OGL/GSL mess that apparently still irks them today. Completely gutting 3rd party-publishers freedom over their own material certainly doesn't Incentivize people to use and create content with your product.

Then there was them pulling Paizo from the stewardship of Dragon / Dungeon Magazine, which pissed people off (and rightly so) to the point that there were threads about 4e boycotts before the game even launched. Had WotC worked with them at the time under the previous OGL instead of distancing themselves from competition- I think they would've probably made content for both Pathfinder 1e and 4e stuff.

WotC also alienated a lot of people when it came to that weird video with the person with the french accent that practically bashed every edition before 4E. While I felt that it was very tongue-in-cheek, I could understand people's frustration with that. Especially when the things you say 4e is going to do l, but never comes to fruition.

Lastly, yes the rules of the game played a part too. As a fan, I can acknowledge that the system is flawed (they all are to degrees) and that changing aspects of the game certainly gave people a reason not to like it. The AEDU structure, the exclusion of certain "base" options not presented in the core 3 books (druids, bards, Gnomes, barbarians, etc), and mechanics like self healing irked people.

However, I maintain the position that it was a the gross combination of all of these things (the "filler" and WotC own ineptitude) that led to only a 6 year run of the system, not just one of two aspects.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11724 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2023 :  22:08:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Thank you George - great insight and a personal bit of thanks regarding taking the wrecking ball to Thay comment. I think Thay was such an amazing unqiue FR place with the Zulkirs and schools of magic and how they were so into trading and sort of a necessary evil trading partner for the world - and loved how the schools kept eachother in check and had to team up to keep Szass down. Also loved the dynamics of the magic of Aglarond and Rasheman as hostile borders to Thay.
I think the FR would have been 1000% better after 3rd Edition if Thay had risen up against Szass and he relocated to Damara as a new Lich King (instead of Witch King) and made that his undead paradise to assault the Sword Coast etc - rather than "taking a wrecking ball" to Thay in order to promote Szass Tam and the undead big bad evil guy threat. Which was such a trope by this point it bordered on cliche anyway.




Agreed with the whole demolishing of Thay. While I enjoyed the novel series about what happened (to a degree), I didn't like the results. I don't mind the idea of Tam causing a civil war. I don't like that he won. I do like that alternate idea of him going elsewhere and making some kind of new realm.... but I don't like the idea of him duplicating the witch king of Vaasa. Having him go out into the endless wastes and founding some new realm using the dead from some battlefield or other... maybe seeking the lost power of Imaskar or Raumathar... and becoming a thorn in the side of Thay and Mulhorand both... that works for me.

I was such a fan of Thay prior to this... and it shows in some ways because of my interest in having my United Tharchs of Toril thing happen (I mean, I know it won't because its not THEIR idea, but...). But after they did what they did, I have no interest in Thay being just "back to what it was" without some significant turmoil happening.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2394 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2023 :  14:00:21  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There were some spears broken about it, and obviously more elsewhere.
But why? See, even in 1999 such a question would be understandable. In 2023 it's ludicrous.
At least, in Mark Twain's time people were not asking Shakespeare changes, WHY? after seeing The King's Cameleopard.
Thundarr the Barbarian changes, WHY?
He-Man and The Masters of the Universe changes, WHY?
Battlestar Galactica changes, WHY?
Ghostbusters changes, WHY?
4e Realms changes, WHY?
Star Wars changes, WHY?
Fire Emblem Fates changes, WHY?
Reboot happens. Here we have seen stories of old TSR editors trying to be co-authors, so it's more surprising this did not happen sooner.
What's actually noteworthy? The ways in which this case is anomalous:
1. The developers managed to burn everything they could to the ground.
Obviously, it was deliberate. I cannot blame them, as it looks like the company aimed to make "FR in name only" anyway and began to put the likes of Mr. Mearls in charge. If they did not, it would (almost certainly) be turned into Soy Wars grade stupid mess. IMHO timeskip into Bear Lore and dissociative hallucinations is a cleaner demise than that.
2. Greenwood. Who played a stereotypical Nice Canadian, went along with everything, legitimized it and wasted his time on trying to make this shoe soup somewhat palatable.
3. For some reason the dead horse was forced to march along anyway.
Which is remarkable, considering even too-big-to-fall Disney had to drop the franchise they turned into a zombie.

quote:
Originally posted by thenightgaunt

From what came out thanks to Salvatore years later, my opinion on the Perkins piece is that he's basically just towing the company line there. If not lying, twisting the truth. His comment "oh we're including Ed at all levels. Doesn't mean Ed was actually making these decisions to gut the realms." He's good at that.

Indeed. We cannot really know what's up from the interested parties. If you insist on an explanation, it will probably insult your intelligence.
For an earlier case: remember the grand mythos of Lorraine Williams as the scapegoat for every stupid thing done in TSR? Maybe she did or ordered all the stupid things, who knows? But why she was able to? Someone sold her controlling shares. Others did not flee the failing company in droves, to join or perhaps start something more healthy. Encouraged, developed, implemented stupid policies. Nothing to see here, folks. Have yet another "Space Flea jumped at us from nowhere" theory. Clearly she just beamed there via extraterrestrial technology, and everyone was intimidated into serving their new overlord without question... or even malicious compliance.

quote:
Like when Crawford a few years ago declared that any book, novel, game from before 2014 was no longer canon (despite that cutting off all the D&DNext material and half the novels that setup 5e)

Which makes the case more similar to Star Wars despite going off the rails in flames.
quote:
Originally posted by thenightgaunt

(What with all the firings and people leaving that happened when Hasbro declared 4e a "failure" because it didn't make $50 mill a year). Which explains so much.
. . .
www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/tabletop/13729-An-Interview-With-Jeremy-Crawford-Co-Designer-and-Editor-of-Dung" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20190621015213/www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/tabletop/13729-An-Interview-With-Jeremy-Crawford-Co-Designer-and-Editor-of-Dung

When the Disney "Star Wars" toys sales were dropping fast and deep, Hasbro did not deem it a great big failure somehow, and made excuses instead.
https://web.archive.org/web/20190928143858/disneystarwarsisdumb.wordpress.com/2018/10/18/hasbro-refers-to-layoffs-as-meaningful-organizational-changes/
(follow the white rabbit links for more of this)

Let's see...
quote:
Originally said by Jeremy Crawford
he's often spitballing big picture ideas which is how he and I have worked together for the past seven years. Mike will often come up with a great, zany idea and then he'll come to me.
Compare: BOFH: Guys? Guys? We need blockchain... can you install blockchain?

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 24 Nov 2023 17:14:58
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2452 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2023 :  18:36:38  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

There were some spears broken about it, and obviously more elsewhere.
But why? See, even in 1999 such a question would be understandable. In 2023 it's ludicrous.



Well, the why is understandable. People don't like change and uncertainty, and they get really mad when change happens (something that is inevitable, like getting mad because the sun shines or something like that...).

But yeah, being still mad for something that happened like 25 years ago is ludicrous. Especially when most of these changes were undone like 5 years after they happened. They already won, yet still they want to feel offended...


Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe

Singapore
408 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2023 :  11:55:40  Show Profile Send Derulbaskul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos (snip) I honestly think that if they had provided a detailed history and timeline of what went down after the Spellplague and why, that the 4E setting would have been much better received and far more popular. Such was not to be.

-- George Krashos


And a decent map. I mean, I run 4E Realms still but that map is a vile, steaming smear of raw excrement.

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

Rich Baker must be stopped!


Rich was one of the few designers who grokked both 4E and FR, and who could write a novel that didn't suck. His removal was a huge loss for WotC, particularly considering one or two of those who retained their positions.




Cheers
D

NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36782 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2023 :  01:50:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

Rich Baker must be stopped!


Rich was one of the few designers who grokked both 4E and FR, and who could write a novel that didn't suck. His removal was a huge loss for WotC, particularly considering one or two of those who retained their positions.



Considering he was also one of those who didn't care about continuity, I can't agree.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Dec 2023 01:51:18
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Azar
Master of Realmslore

1303 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2023 :  02:24:09  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm no fan of both Bakers.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.

Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think.
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
891 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2023 :  11:58:07  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

I'm no fan of both Bakers.


Who is the other Baker? I can only think of Tom Baker who played the Fourth Doctor in Doctor Who.
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2452 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2023 :  20:38:12  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess he is talking about Keith Baker, the creator of Eberron.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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Azar
Master of Realmslore

1303 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2023 :  22:41:09  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

I'm no fan of both Bakers.


Who is the other Baker? I can only think of Tom Baker who played the Fourth Doctor in Doctor Who.



Color me rosy . It turns out I only reserve that level of annoyance for Rich Baker (now, that's rich). The other Baker never mucked around with The Realms...while grasping an official quill or otherwise.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.

Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think.
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