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Cosmar
Seeker
89 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Nov 2023 : 04:08:01
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Hi all, I just want to pick your brains about how you think good outsiders would feel/react to being bound via Planar Binding or somesuch when cast by a good character.
I just usually read about Planar Binding when either 1) cast by an evil character and/or 2) used to bind evil (or neutral/chaotic) beings.
If a good wizard cast Planar Binding to bind a good outsider to a righteous cause, would said outsider still be angry about being bound? Look with distaste on its binder?
I just wonder because of the sort of aggressive/controlling nature of the spell.
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
913 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2023 : 04:20:14
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Of course the outsider would be angry about being bound. The alignment of the caster does not matter. If the caster can cast a binding spell, the outsider would reason the caster has the resources to have an allied cleric cast a planar ally spell.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2023 : 20:00:04
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All planars are subject to spells which affect planars. Even if they happen to be PCs.
How would your good-aligned PC from Planescape react when suddenly sucked through a planar vortex into an inescapable circle in a wizard's basement? |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11798 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2023 : 14:52:31
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| The conundrum to some degree is this... if you usurp a being's free will, are you really a "good person"? There is planar binding and planar ally, and the primary difference is that planar ally requires you to offer them the option of serving you..... but that doesn't mean that planar binding cannot also be worded as to still grant the being their free will. You could summon them using the planar binding and make the requirement be simply that "they must decide if they will help you" and then present arguments. Now, if you didn't give them the option, might some of them be understanding? Sure, some might relish what you've brought them there to do, but in the end they may "inform" their summoner that they could have done it differently and less distastefully. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Cosmar
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2023 : 21:53:14
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That all makes sense. I have a good (Harper) wizard who has learned planar binding from a looted scroll, but I was debating about how or if to use it. It always seemed to be kind of distasteful, like I've only heard of evil casters using it for bad purposes, either that or a Malconvoker type who dominates evil creatures.
I was thinking along your lines, sleyvas, about the wording. Like if I bound a good creature, as soon as it appears, be like, "So sorry to bother you, I know this method is distasteful, but we're on X mission to do Y thing about Z evil-ness, and I wondered if you'd be willing to help us with it...if not, that's fine, you can go, and again sorry for taking you away from whatever you were just doing"
Hard to think of other un-morally-gray uses for it, other than maybe for binding a very specific evil creature for a very specific task that was story-related somehow. Simply binding some random evil or chaotic creature to just help in battle or for utility doesn't really seem like something a morally upstanding wizard would do, or could he justify it simply as another resource to help with tasks? |
Edited by - Cosmar on 30 Nov 2023 22:18:16 |
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Karthak
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2023 : 23:53:00
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Its kind of a rare case, but if you've got an ally who's been turned into a devil or any other extraplanar creature against their will, binding them to your current plane of existence after summoning them or to prevent them from plane shifting or being summoned away so you can attempt to reverse their condition would be morally justified.
As for binding a very specific evil creature for a task, if you've got a powerful devil or demon in front of you, binding it to the material plane and commanding it to stand in one spot for a year and a day to prevent it from being able to do anything evil or destructive for a relatively short period of time, there's nothing particular morally gray about preventing something purely evil from being able to act on those impulses for a time. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11798 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2023 : 23:58:08
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| Just to note, this same conundrum can be considered when one is using things like charm person, suggestion, etc... I can see where there might be some cultures that consider THESE spells more distasteful than the necromancer who animates a skeleton and puts it to work filling potholes. Some cultures might also have similar issues with illusionists for being "liars". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
300 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2023 : 00:17:08
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In general a good individual can and will accept involuntary service for a good cause. They might not like it, but will be able to accept it. It's a very mature, good and selfless ideal to have: involuntarily giving up your freedom to help another.
Take a draft for example. A good nation, surrounded by horrible enemies and hostile nations, requires all people to serve in the military. All the good people can accept this: they can accept putting their life 'on hold' to do a tour of duty to protect everyone in the nation.....EVEN though they don't like it. And you can't have it voluntary as ALL the evil people, and many of the neutral people won't do it. And the nation needs troops to defend it. So they do the draft for everyone.
Though this is also balanced by the good spell caster needs to have a good reason to summon a good outsider.
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If you really feel you need a run around to make yourself feel better, there are a couple:
Somewhere in the Cosmos there is a Good Waiting Room. Where good outsiders go willingly to a spot, and wait to be called.
The other one is law and justice. As every so often a good outsider breaks a law or otherwise does something wrong.....the punishment they get is "you must respond to calls for help for 100 years" or something like that.
There is also the idea that each individual might have to turn on their aura to be found by the spell, so if they keep it turned off they are not 'discoverable to call'. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2023 : 18:58:08
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One can always summon without binding. Or summon through invitation. Or simply open a gate and hope something comes through (not such a bad gamble if you choose the destination plane with some care).
Summoned creatures not always immediately enraged unless the spell description says so. They are simply uncontrolled. Like any other Good-aligned person you might interrupt. They might immediately defend themselves but aren't likely inclined to immediately attack unless they know they've been summoned by foul sorts for foul purposes. Most Celestials (and most Fiends) have the ability to simply transport themselves back to their native planes if they're not magically bound, a Planetar or Guardinal might wait a short time to let you explain why you summoned it - and it might punitively remind you not to waste its valuable time but it probably wouldn't attack, slay, and destroy through anger unless it had reason to do so. A summoning is basically an annoyance similar to a salesman sticking his foot in your door. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11798 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2023 : 21:25:30
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
In general a good individual can and will accept involuntary service for a good cause. They might not like it, but will be able to accept it. It's a very mature, good and selfless ideal to have: involuntarily giving up your freedom to help another.
Shooot... that must mean all the teenagers I know must be evil as heck. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Cosmar
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2023 : 00:50:42
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Thanks for the thoughts and replies, all. My party (level 11) also includes a cleric, so if we really wanted longer-term help from a good outsider, she could probably use Planar Ally. My wizard, having found/learned Planar Binding, would most likely not ever actually use it, to be honest. Our primary antagonists are demonfey (it's a 3.5 game set in the Silver Marches and it's currently early 1374 DR, and both my wiz and the cleric are Sun Elves), so one possible use I could conceive for it would be, if we were able to discover the identity of any particular demons that know anything about the demonfey (through previous bindings done by the demonfey or such), to have them help us against them somehow.
I mean, I wouldn't be gutted if I never got a logical chance/reason to use it, there are plenty of other interesting spells to use. I've just never actually had the chance to use it in actual play before. For simple combat/short term uses, I'd just use summon monster VI. The only reason I could think of to use Planar Binding to bind a good outsider instead of having the cleric use Planar Ally is just to avoid the component costs of Planar Ally.
Our party also comprises three powerful combat types (paladin, swashbuckler/rogue, and tanky fighter/occult slayer), so a combat-related summon would really just be icing on the cake/cannon fodder against a potential BBEG. |
Edited by - Cosmar on 08 Dec 2023 00:55:41 |
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Planar Binding to bind good creatures
