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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe

USA
299 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2023 :  07:09:11  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So the topic came up around one of my games of the technology of the Realms. And the fact that the Realms has been locked into "Renaissance Staisus" for 5,000 years (or worse 40,000 years, but lets not go that far back). And it has nothing to do with magic.

Earth, to compare, 5,000 years ago was the "end of the stone age" and just the start of things like farming and making tools.

But..oddly, the Realms of 5,000 years ago....had the near exact same technology as 1500DR.

And to just stick to humans. The Imaskar had swords, bows and scrolls 5,000 years ago. And humans still use swords, bows and scrolls in 1500DR. For Earth, that 5,000 years goes from clubs, slings and clay tablets....to P-90's, rail guns and digital content. And on top of that the Realms has magic to help.

But the "Theory" is the Realms has an apocalyptic event every couple of years that...oddly...obliterates all technology. And that is why the Realms is the way they are. Well, except of course there are not apocalyptic event every couple of years. Even more so when your talking world wide.

And we have the "Theory" that the Harpers are Mass Murdering Luddites that run around all over the world and destroy all technology.

But this brings us back to the Gond Question: How much does Gond know?

So, does Gond know 'near' everything about Technology? And what exactly is his limit? It would seem he knows more then all mortals in Realmspace. But to what limit? Would Gond know about radio? Electricity? Quantum Computers? Warp Drive?

Some might say Gond only "knows" what mortals know. That Gond just sit around and waits for mortals to invent things and then he looks at it and goes "oh". So Gond would not know anything about a computer until some mortal invents it first?

Though this has the stasis problem. Even in just the 2000 years of Gonds life, the Realms has invented lots of tech. Looms, water pumps, steam powered objects, printing presses, gas engines, electricity bottles and sailing ships.

So even if there is a "printing press apocalypse" every couple of years....Gond still knows about printing presses. Right?

So how does the tech get lost when Gond can just tell everyone about it? And it can't be he is not "allowed" to talk about it....as other gods sure seem to talk about their interests.

But then it's not "just" Gond. You have like another 50 or so good or neutral gods. At least some who do want to help people. Plus you have a ton ton of immortal beings. Plus undead....even some good undead. And we know lots of both of them give people "long lost magic". So why not long lost technology?

Thoughts?

Ayrik
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Canada
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Posted - 09 Jun 2023 :  07:33:20  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The sorts of technologies we can "craft" - things like silicon chips, lasers, military jets, radio-controlled camera drones, etc - don't work in the Realms.

The physics of the Realms are "slightly out of sync" with those of Earth. Electronics from Earth don't work. Advanced alloys from Earth become no better than whatever the dwarves and elves can forge. Gunpowders, explosives, fuels, and propellants from Earth are basically inert and useless substances.

1E Manual of the Planes, 2E Forgotten Realms Adventures, and 2E Planescape describe rules for these things.

Gond certainly knows all about every technology which can be crafted on the Realms.

I'm not sure he'd know about any technologies which can be crafted elsewhere but lose their properties in the Realms. He'd simply have no reason to know about such things, if he wanted such technologies in the Realms then he (or his faithful) would invent them.

[/Ayrik]
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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 09 Jun 2023 :  09:13:57  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My theory is that Ao is a force of stagnation and unchanginess. He doesn't want the Realms to progress, so everything is stagnated.

As for Gond, he doesn't know anything. He's just Ao's lackey.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 09 Jun 2023 09:16:05
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11742 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2023 :  20:05:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another way to look at it.... Gond GIVING people technology kind of goes against what he would want. Having people discover new technology is what empowers him. If they have to rediscover how to do things.... good for him in some ways. He might give hints, signs, etc... to help someone who is trying to figure things out, but just supplying them the answers just enslaves people to him and stagnates their ability to think for themselves. I would bet Ao would step in over this as well, just as he would if Mystra just started giving out every spell under the sun rather than make people research.

Now, why everything has been stagnant? I'll point this out in our world. Just 2-3 generations back we had people who figured out how to fly to the moon. Already people having understanding of how that old technology works is being lost. That was with technology that the whole world was mesmerized by and even saw.

We don't have magic in our world. So we're FORCED to use technology. In the realms magic accomplishes many things that technology can do more easily (maybe not as much repeatedly mind you) and also makes individuals more BROADLY capable. So the most well trained minds in the realms tend to gravitate towards its use rather than focusing on one particular bit of technology.

To give a comparison... running the internet in this world requires MORE than just guys who know how a PC works.... there's database admins, network admins who focus on things like user access, network engineers who interconnect thing, transport engineers who focus on physical layer connectivity, database admins, web server administrators, security admins, people who build virtual servers and manage server blade systems, application subject matter experts, programmers, specialists in different O/S's (windows, linux, android, apple, etc...), project managers to coordinate all these groups to talk to each other... and the language in each company is "different".... and that's just a very high level view.

Meanwhile, a wizard who gains a few levels can do quite frankly amazing things if you really start thinking about it. Maybe not as focused on one thing, but much much more versatile. Is it any wonder that the brightest minds gravitate to its use instead?

Also, bear this in mind as well... in general, in our world we live in fairly relative peace. We can have an individual in our community who is focused on X skill and another on Y skill, because the likelihood of them dying is very limited. That is partly because we're all humans and tend to value humanity. This isn't true in the realms where orcs, goblins, ogres, trolls, yuan-ti, illithids, dark elves... not to mention wild, magical beasts which might also be highly intelligent... all are threats to humanity. Life in the forgotten realms is inherently more dangerous than our world. I'd imagine a lot of energy is expended just on the fact that a family might raise a child only to have them die before 30 because their village was ransaked by raiders or their carriage was assaulted on the roadways.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 09 Jun 2023 20:30:05
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Storyteller Hero
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USA
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Posted - 10 Jun 2023 :  03:48:44  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Remember when Cyric commissioned killer robots from Gond to make trouble for Mystra?

The realm of Halruua might have advanced magitech.

The isle of Lantan might be in steampunk mode by the 1490s.


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DoveArrow
Seeker

97 Posts

Posted - 10 Jun 2023 :  03:54:59  Show Profile Send DoveArrow a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red

Earth, to compare, 5,000 years ago was the "end of the stone age" and just the start of things like farming and making tools.

But..oddly, the Realms of 5,000 years ago....had the near exact same technology as 1500DR.


One thing to keep in mind is that the level of technology in the real world didn't really advance substantially until the mid 18th century during the time of the Industrial Revolution. The trappings of society may have changed from the time of the Roman Empire to the time of the Enlightenment, but it was basically agrarian societies living under monarchical rule. So it's not too much of a shock that technology in the Realms hasn't advanced much in a similar timeframe.

quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red

So how does the tech get lost when Gond can just tell everyone about it? And it can't be he is not "allowed" to talk about it....as other gods sure seem to talk about their interests.


Keep in mind that Lantan is much more technologically advanced than other nations and is the only nation where Gond is worshipped as the primary deity. He's not necessarily going to share those kinds of innovations with people who don't worship him. If the church of Gond operates anything like the real world Freemasons or Italian guilds, it's likely that the techniques they use to create their technological innovations are kept secret and when the ones who hold those secrets die, the secrets of their construction die with them. In the case of the gnomes of Lantan, they are pretty secretive about their technology and they don't really share it with other cultures. That's possibly one reason Faerun hasn't had the kind of technological revolution that we have experienced in the real world.

Another thing to consider is that not every culture uses technology in the same way that European cultures did during the time of the Industrial Revolution. China, for example, had many technological innovations (printing, gunpowder, weaving, navigation) that Europeans essentially stole to start the Industrial Revolution. The reason China didn't have their own Industrial Revolution until much later in history is because their culture was highly focused on tradition, maintaining social hierarchy, and maintaining a balance with nature. In Europe, anyone with a little money and innovation could move up in social status, nature be damned, which is why people were able to take those innovations and run with them.

Finally, even if all of those things weren't true, it's hard to have the magical equivalent of an Industrial Revolution when Mystra keeps changing the rules of how magic operates. Imagine where we would be technologically if the laws of nature operated more like the YouTube algorithm.

Anyway, those are my two cents. Take them for what they're worth.

Edited by - DoveArrow on 10 Jun 2023 04:33:42
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7981 Posts

Posted - 10 Jun 2023 :  05:41:44  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Consider smokepowder and firearms in the Realms. Introduced by Gond, in violation of Ao's decrees.

Gond's temples have produced some "high-tech" things like mechanical clocks, steam-powered engines, mechanically automated tools, large cranes which load cargo containers from railcars onto ships, etc. Things they proudly advertise as "wonders" provided by Gond. Things which Elminster has sarcastically quipped look a lot like technologies/ideas stolen from other worlds.

Do you need to worship Gond to invent something? No. I doubt it.

But if you worship Gond, you'll be gifted with certain knowledge and inspiration which might help you invent things.

And Gond will know of your invention either way. And he will use this knowledge to inspire his faithful.

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 10 Jun 2023 :  05:51:58  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Consider smokepowder and firearms in the Realms. Introduced by Gond, in violation of Ao's decrees.



Where is it stated that Ao said anything at all on this topic? I was recently reading an Ed response on the specific topic of firearms, gun powder, and smoke powder, and he didn't say anything at all about Ao.

(He also said that the kind of jeweller's rouge that was used as gun powder in the Amber books would work the same way in the Realms.)

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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 10 Jun 2023 :  07:03:49  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gunpowder doesn't work according to the decrees of Kossuth, not Ao (though Ed did once say that it was Gond who prohibited it's function, I believe that was a mistake on his part, as he's said Kossuth ever since).

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Ayrik
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Canada
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Posted - 10 Jun 2023 :  07:20:20  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought the smokepowder ban was Ao's decree? I'm pretty sure the topic has been discussed here before.

Gond's worshippers in Lantan protected him so well during the Avatar Crisis that he chose to reward them with the (illegal) secrets of smokepowder after the Time of Troubles concluded and he was (re)installed into his divine station.

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 10 Jun 2023 :  16:06:58  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I thought the smokepowder ban was Ao's decree? I'm pretty sure the topic has been discussed here before.

Gond's worshippers in Lantan protected him so well during the Avatar Crisis that he chose to reward them with the (illegal) secrets of smokepowder after the Time of Troubles concluded and he was (re)installed into his divine station.



Mystra's Ban was Ao's, but I've never seen anything saying the gunpowder thing was anything but Gond. Ed even says it was a voluntary thing; Gond's worshippers were blowing themselves up.

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bloodtide_the_red
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Posted - 10 Jun 2023 :  23:20:24  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know I've seen it....but where is this oddly specific Kossuth bans gun powder Realmspace wide? And does it say why other then Kossuth is a Luddite? And, ok, so one god can "ban" a set mix of ingredients from catching fire/exploding.....but what is the point if it can be "invented" around?

Kossuth did not stop all burning chemicals, The Realms still has oil, tar, pitch, "Greek Fire", char coal, coal, and flammable gases.

Thay has had Bombards from what....1350DR or so....maybe even further back? Guess they use some other sort of chemical then "gun powder"? Is it stated anywhere what the 'fuel' is? They had them before Gond "invented" smoke powder.....or did Thay also "invent" smoke powder, just in secret?

Gond gave Lantan smoke powder and guns in 1358DR. Forgotten Realms Adventures has a couple pages on Guns in the Realms. And we get the mentin that most warrior types think guns are ok, but think axes and swords are way cooler. But just about no product after that ever mentions guns. And sure Lantan was 'deleted' for a couple years, but you still have them on Toril for years. Is there anything in cannon about why no guns? We have the "Waterdeep is run by a bunch of anti gun folks" in the short story "Gunn Runner". But what about the rest of the Realms?

For that matter ....do Spelljammer guns work in the Realms? Or do they need to be retrofired to work with smoke powder?
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11742 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2023 :  21:57:11  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From 1e on Thayvian bombards... it was a liquid fuel and apparently it burned blue... so perhaps something equivalent to ethanol, methanol, etc...?

The Thayian bombards are mystical devices which fire a screaming blue death upon enemy ships. Each fortress has four of these cast-iron monsters, which have a minimum range of 120 yards and a maximum range of 480 yards. They fire huge hollow stone balls filled with fluid sold by the Wizards of Thay that, placed in the bombard, ignites and carries the flaming stone ball to its target, inflicting 5-30 points fire damage, 2-12 points hull damage, and setting all flammables stuck ablaze. These bombards are wonders of this age, but are hampered by their size (each is larger than a manor-house in Waterdeep), their required fluid (which the Thayians part with at a dear price), and a lack of accuracy, for while the bombard may fire once every two turns, it only has a 1 in 10 chance of hitting its target.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 12 Jun 2023 :  22:07:57  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

From 1e on Thayvian bombards... it was a liquid fuel and apparently it burned blue... so perhaps something equivalent to ethanol, methanol, etc...?

The Thayian bombards are mystical devices which fire a screaming blue death upon enemy ships. Each fortress has four of these cast-iron monsters, which have a minimum range of 120 yards and a maximum range of 480 yards. They fire huge hollow stone balls filled with fluid sold by the Wizards of Thay that, placed in the bombard, ignites and carries the flaming stone ball to its target, inflicting 5-30 points fire damage, 2-12 points hull damage, and setting all flammables stuck ablaze. These bombards are wonders of this age, but are hampered by their size (each is larger than a manor-house in Waterdeep), their required fluid (which the Thayians part with at a dear price), and a lack of accuracy, for while the bombard may fire once every two turns, it only has a 1 in 10 chance of hitting its target.



Unless I am mistaken, "once every two turns" means once every TWENTY minutes. And that, to me, is a bigger issue than only having a 10% chance of hitting -- because what are the odds your target is going to conveniently wait that long for you to hurl flaming balls of stone at them?

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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 12 Jun 2023 :  22:36:18  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Isn't a turn just 6 seconds long? Two turns would be just 12 seconds. Unless a turn was longer in 2e.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe

USA
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Posted - 12 Jun 2023 :  23:02:37  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In AD&D the "turn" was ten minutes.....but.....was one minute in combat.

But guess the Bombards had some alternative liquid to smoke powered....
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Ayrik
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Posted - 13 Jun 2023 :  01:41:23  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
AD&D 1E and 2E, a "turn" was 10 minutes (6 "turns" in an hour).

A "round" was about one minute (and was further divided into 10 "segments" of about 6 seconds each).

Players sometimes referred to combat "rounds" as "turns". Because you waited for your turn, you took turns, etc. You can usually tell from the context what kind of "turn" is being discussed. Later D&D editions chose better terminology to prevent these confusions.

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 13 Jun 2023 :  04:11:10  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Isn't a turn just 6 seconds long? Two turns would be just 12 seconds. Unless a turn was longer in 2e.



In 1E, you had a six-second segment, a one-minute round, and ten-minute turns.

2E dropped segments, but rounds and turns were the same as 1E.

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Ayrik
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Posted - 13 Jun 2023 :  06:11:40  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
2E still had "segments". Even if it didn't refer to them as such (outside of late-2E Player's Option handbooks).

Initiative was 1d10 plus the weapon's "Speed Factor" or the spell's "Casting Time".
Some weapons had multiple attacks, some classes and combat proficiencies increased number of attacks, some magical items increased number of attacks.
All these things together could add to far more than 10 "segments" and would easily exceed a Round (about one minute) if they were assumed to be about 6 seconds each.
So 2E kind of implicitly included 1E-style "Segments" while explicitly handwaving them away.

[/Ayrik]
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hashimashadoo
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Posted - 13 Jun 2023 :  22:02:13  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I thought the smokepowder ban was Ao's decree? I'm pretty sure the topic has been discussed here before.

Gond's worshippers in Lantan protected him so well during the Avatar Crisis that he chose to reward them with the (illegal) secrets of smokepowder after the Time of Troubles concluded and he was (re)installed into his divine station.



Ed Greenwood has said both. In 2017 it was Kossuth, in 2019, it was Gond.

https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/867393291809161217

Even Ed is an unreliable narrator at times.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11742 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2023 :  23:46:48  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red

In AD&D the "turn" was ten minutes.....but.....was one minute in combat.

But guess the Bombards had some alternative liquid to smoke powered....



Yeah, I'm not hugely worried about the 1e mechanics... just that they didn't use smokepowder. NOW LATER... I think they adapted to smokepowder AND they started using bombards more like those used for wildspace (essentially like cannons). I credit that partly to spying on other cultures with wildspace travel capability (especially since Thay did start developing their own version of helms with the quad of Thay).

I also wonder how much of smokepowder knowledge came from Lantan and how much came from wildspace. For instance, I could definitely see Kara-tur getting its knowledge of smokepowder from wildspace and not linking it back to Lantan. Faerunians may BELIEVE otherwise mind you, but it doesn't necessarily make it true. For that matter.... just to throw out there DO we know who was acting as the avatar of Gond in Lantan during the ToT? Was he a native... or might he have been a visitor from wildspace? I think the only thing we know is that he was a gnome and prior to that I don't know that Lantan was noted as having a sizable gnome population (and I'd have to hunt to find where the quote is that it was a gnome being the avatar).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 14 Jun 2023 00:01:20
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11742 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2023 :  23:55:36  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I thought the smokepowder ban was Ao's decree? I'm pretty sure the topic has been discussed here before.

Gond's worshippers in Lantan protected him so well during the Avatar Crisis that he chose to reward them with the (illegal) secrets of smokepowder after the Time of Troubles concluded and he was (re)installed into his divine station.



Ed Greenwood has said both. In 2017 it was Kossuth, in 2019, it was Gond.

https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/867393291809161217

Even Ed is an unreliable narrator at times.



interested but I can't see the whole conversation... and I don't want a twitter account anymore. Any chance you can provide those snippets?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 14 Jun 2023 :  00:26:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think I got the whole thing... Twitter has always made it difficult to find all of these responses, for Lurue only knows what reason (this is an issue that predates Musk, so we can't blame him).





@jvcparry

Do firearms such as muskets, blunderbusses etc. exist in the Forgotten Realms? Are they common? #dnd


@TheEdVerse

Yes; see my Firearms articles in DRAGON # 60 and 70. Gunpowder doesn't work (combust) in the Realms, only smokepowder. Firearms VERY rare.


@TheEdVerse

And of course gunpowder won't ignite (work at all) in the Realms. Saltpeter (by itself) will burn, not explode. Smokepowder will.


@jvcparry

Is there a canon reason for this?


@TheEdVerse

In-game: the Firelord (Kossuth) decreed it so; natural or creature-made attempts to combine ingredients into what we would call gunpowder are absorbed by him (no blast as he takes energy). Out-of-game: TSR execs decided "no firearms," Jeff Grubb later came up with smokepowder for the giff in Spelljammer. The ingredients for which are completely different than gunpowder's.


@jvcparry

What would most pirates use as weaponry? Do they use magic like canons? A well placed fireball should surely sink a ship?


@TheEdVerse

Bombards use the ground to take their recoil and great weight. Most Realms ships can't handle cannon recoils (wheeled shipboard carriages not invented yet). Airships can get hurled backwards by cannonfire. So most warships use rams, side-shears (against oars and enemy hull), ballistae (volleys of javelins or heavy crossbow bolts) or mangonels hurling "firepots." Fireballs burn NOT sink right away. Many ships carry sandbags, water cistern to quench deck fires. MOST pirates: crossbow volley, then storm and board.


@jvcparry

Thanks once again for your infinitely deep well of knowledge!


@TheEdVerse

A pleasure! :}

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 14 Jun 2023 :  00:35:45  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've pinged Ed, on the Discord, about this apparently conflicting information.

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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 14 Jun 2023 :  01:44:47  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"You know nothing, Gond Snow".

Why didn't I think of this before?

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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Storyteller Hero
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USA
329 Posts

Posted - 14 Jun 2023 :  08:24:49  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it's worth noting that when it comes to affecting the rules of reality, multiple gods may be involved, just as multiple gods can draw upon the same portfolios to an extent.

Gunpowder might not work in Faerūn but work several thousand miles on another continent of Toril, or Gond might have agreements with other gods in charge of other regions, including Kossuth who might do it in Zakhara.




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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7981 Posts

Posted - 14 Jun 2023 :  09:45:02  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought the legendary Thayan bombards used some sort of special, secret alchemical "liquid fire" instead of smokepowder?

[/Ayrik]
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11742 Posts

Posted - 14 Jun 2023 :  17:25:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I thought the legendary Thayan bombards used some sort of special, secret alchemical "liquid fire" instead of smokepowder?



Yep, bombard oil. I noted that above. Now when 2e came around and Thay was building their metal ship "The Red Scourge"... it had 21 "light bombards". That being said... I may have mistaken something when I assumed that these MUCH smaller bombards (essentially cannons) used smokepowder like spelljammers. Spellbound says

Stout iron lockers in the center of the deck contain 500 rounds of ammunition#151;metal spheres containing a flammable alchemical preparation. These lockers are sealed and enchanted with the equivalent of a ring of fire resistance so that fires or enemy attacks will not inadvertently set the ammunition off, a disaster that might destroy the Red Scourge entirely.

To note, this is a big change from what Ed is quoted as saying in the above about other ships and not being able to handle cannon recoil. Granted this ship is also heavy as hell, made of metal, with paddlewheels driving it. I made a 3d model of it a couple years back when I was going through my "learning how to 3d model things" phase for those interested in imagery.

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4276520

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2400 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2023 :  03:12:22  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red

But..oddly, the Realms of 5,000 years ago....had the near exact same technology as 1500DR.
Netheril had flying cities, as well as more powerful and convenient projectile weapons (netherpelters), fast boats, plumbing, large scale irrigation systems and spacecraft.
quote:
The Imaskar had swords, bows and scrolls 5,000 years ago. And humans still use swords, bows and scrolls in 1500DR.

Imaskar had a lot more than this. But then there's "hardware" vs "software" problem. Swords might be much the same, but enchantments on them could be very different.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yep, bombard oil. I noted that above. Now when 2e came around and Thay was building their metal ship "The Red Scourge"... it had 21 "light bombards". [...] Spellbound says

Stout iron lockers in the center of the deck contain 500 rounds of ammunition#151;metal spheres containing a flammable alchemical preparation. These lockers are sealed and enchanted with the equivalent of a ring of fire resistance so that fires or enemy attacks will not inadvertently set the ammunition off, a disaster that might destroy the Red Scourge entirely.

It does not say about the form of "a flammable alchemical preparation", nor whether it's propellant or payload. The way it's written, more like incendiary cannonballs.
Or those might be indeed lighter versions of the heavy bombard.

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And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7981 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2023 :  06:16:59  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You guys know what a bombard is, right? I don't think many ships will be carrying bombards.

https://historycollection.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/The-Bombard-Cannon.jpg

[/Ayrik]
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe

USA
299 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2023 :  20:53:42  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Netheril had flying cities, as well as more powerful and convenient projectile weapons (netherpelters), fast boats, plumbing, large scale irrigation systems and spacecraft.


Well...the flying cities were magic. So were the netherpelters.

The modern realms have guns. Plenty of fast boats and ships. Plumbing. Large scale irrigation. And plenty of Spelljammers(though again, these are magic).

Though that is my point. In roughly 2,000 years there has not been any improvements.

Just think of a typical Realms town folk. Wakes up in the morning and starts a small wood fire. Gets some water from the well/river. Eats some bread, fruit, vegetables and maybe meat...nearly all they had to grow or catch themselves. Then they are off to work doing nearly 100% work powered by people and/or animals. Once the sun goes down, use torches or candles for a bit...but mostly go right to sleep.

The above describes the Folk of Netheril in -400 DR or Folk in Shadowdale in 1500DR.

It's like saying some one living in 2023 Atalanta is living just like someone in Bethlehem in 20 AD.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Imaskar had a lot more than this. But then there's "hardware" vs "software" problem. Swords might be much the same, but enchantments on them could be very different.


Again, I'm taking about technology. And that is "tech" as in all mundane crafts.

So, yes, someone in Imaskar 5000 years ago invited the mundane technology of "sharp metal". And the Realms of 1500DR still uses it.
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