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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jun 2023 : 16:20:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupertdon't have seen anything like that in 4e.
Canon is lore. If there is a lore inconsistency, that's a canon inconsistency.
This is why I said fans don't really understand what canon is. Canon isn't lore. Canon is a set of references you can use when you are researching about something. If you are reading the Bible (the original use of the word canon was for this), do you read only the books the Christians consider canon? Or do you alse read the apocryphal books of the Catholics?
The same happens with sourcebooks. If you are reading about 3.x Realmslore, do you only accept WotC books? Do you think the novels also apply? Do you add Pathfinder lore into your canon?
The canon is just a rule the allows to recognize which books to read to create an organized sense of lore, but the lore per se it's not the canon (as the lore can be changed - retconned later).
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
[quote]Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Or other changes like killing off Drizzt Do'Urden
Killing Drizzt Do'Urden is the only good thing to do. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 03 Jun 2023 16:24:00 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2023 : 16:54:18
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quote:
Killing Drizzt Do'Urden is the only good thing to do.
Don't underestimate the abilities of an impersonal greedy corporation.
They might decide to impose a new vision on the "property" they own. Sweep out the old, install the new. Drizzt is an untouchable money maker. Until Drizzt stops making money ... then they'll liquidate has-been old Drizzt to build up their shiny new character.
The Mickey Mouse operation said it best:
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to." |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2023 : 16:57:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupertdon't have seen anything like that in 4e.
Canon is lore. If there is a lore inconsistency, that's a canon inconsistency.
This is why I said fans don't really understand what canon is. Canon isn't lore. Canon is a set of references you can use when you are researching about something. If you are reading the Bible (the original use of the word canon was for this), do you read only the books the Christians consider canon? Or do you alse read the apocryphal books of the Catholics?
The same happens with sourcebooks. If you are reading about 3.x Realmslore, do you only accept WotC books? Do you think the novels also apply? Do you add Pathfinder lore into your canon?
The canon is just a rule the allows to recognize which books to read to create an organized sense of lore, but the lore per se it's not the canon (as the lore can be changed - retconned later).
EVERYTHING can be changed -- including your theoretical rule, which has been changed. By your definition, there is no such thing as canon, since it can all be changed.
Canon is lore. If we can't agree on that basic premise, then there's nothing further to discuss. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Returnip
Learned Scribe
221 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2023 : 13:03:12
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To answer OP's question, I think it's reasonable to cherry pick stuff from 4e and 5e that aren't self-contained new things. For example if a 4e or 5e product elaborate on something established in earlier editions I might use that. But if they change it I throw it out. The biggest problem I have with 4e and 5e is that they have changed things too much so there is very little in there that can be reconciled with my 3.5 setting so it's very rare that anything from those editions of the realms is of any use to me. Example: Just the massive time skip kills off pretty much every NPC that isn't an elf or a dwarf and along with them all their plots, agendas etc.
On a side note, I don't find the cosmology changes from 2e to 3.x to be that much of an issue. I have both views coexisting. That way I can have different schools of scientists argue about which is correct.  |
On the other hand you have different fingers. |
Edited by - Returnip on 04 Jun 2023 13:13:09 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2023 : 16:06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Returnip
On a side note, I don't find the cosmology changes from 2e to 3.x to be that much of an issue. I have both views coexisting. That way I can have different schools of scientists argue about which is correct.
It's possible for both structures to coexist; indeed, by definition, something infinite can't exist in any sort of structure. So there's no problem saying that some people see the planes as a Tree and others as a Wheel.
But that wasn't all they did. They moved deities around, changed the planes themselves, and changed how planar travel even works. They changed it from a planar structure that accommodates the other campaign settings to one that is connected to Toril and only to Toril.
In essence, they shrunk the cosmology and put Toril at the absolute center of it. And this creates issues because not only is it a retcon, it really makes it difficult to explain how anyone can come from elsewhere -- whether that anyone is an interloper deity like Tyr or a bunch of people being kidnapped from another Prime world that TSR/WotC has always been oddly careful NOT to identify as Earth. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2023 : 16:28:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Returnip
... Just the massive time skip kills off pretty much every NPC that isn't an elf or a dwarf and along with them all their plots, agendas etc.
Off-topic ... I'll create a new scroll if it looks like this will derail things ...
But this seems to be the only relevant mention of elven/dwarven longevity in the game.
I mean, you make a character who is an elf or a dwarf (or some other race) which has longevity far beyond that of humans. This is great. You'll live for centuries! You can survive casting more of those spells or fighting more of those monsters which inflict aging.
But then what? What use is a long lifespan in a game which doesn't have an equally long timespan? Being able to live 500 more years is hardly important in an epic which only spans a decade or two. |
[/Ayrik] |
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zyzzyva
Acolyte
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2023 : 14:20:12
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Some people clearly enjoy retrofitting. I'm reasonably sure it is possible to invent a convoluted chain of consequences for some of the RSE that shoehorns all the Bear Lore nonsense as its in-Universe results. But do you want to do this?
As someone who started out naively running my campaigns in the 5e timeframe without much of a sense of the timeline as a whole, figuring out ways address this is something I find an interesting challenge, though I can imagine it would be just frustrating for folks who want something more definitive. In general, I approach sourcebooks as historical sources--they're all describing something from a specific point of view, but the degree to which internal blind spots/personal bias cause certain points to be inaccurate or outright falsifications allows wiggle room where they contradict each other.
Hoping my next campaign will be some sort of historiographical escapade where the party is researchers at Candlekeep or some similar institution trying to make sense of the mess of the post-Spellplague timeline. I'm generally running with the idea that something happened in the post-Spellplague timeline that Ao did a temporal reset to avoid. In 'real time' then, the Spellplague years and the Second Sundering are actually the same event, and most of the 15th century didn't happen (though may still be remembered because of reasons.) Basically the idea is to allow a structure in which some important events that happened during the 4e chronology to be carried back or explained as effects of the Spellplague/Sundering (such as the eruption of Mount Hotenow) while consigning undesirable ones to the doomed post-Spellplague timeline (such as the destruction of Halruaa). Definitely creates an annoying chronological mess, but at least a more intriguing one than 100 years of largely missing history. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2023 : 19:26:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by Returnip
... Just the massive time skip kills off pretty much every NPC that isn't an elf or a dwarf and along with them all their plots, agendas etc.
Off-topic ... I'll create a new scroll if it looks like this will derail things ...
But this seems to be the only relevant mention of elven/dwarven longevity in the game.
I mean, you make a character who is an elf or a dwarf (or some other race) which has longevity far beyond that of humans. This is great. You'll live for centuries! You can survive casting more of those spells or fighting more of those monsters which inflict aging.
But then what? What use is a long lifespan in a game which doesn't have an equally long timespan? Being able to live 500 more years is hardly important in an epic which only spans a decade or two.
This has become less important with newer editions as well. Haste used to age you. Ghosts used to age you. I think wishes maybe used to age you? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2023 : 19:32:58
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quote:
Originally posted by zyzzyva
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Some people clearly enjoy retrofitting. I'm reasonably sure it is possible to invent a convoluted chain of consequences for some of the RSE that shoehorns all the Bear Lore nonsense as its in-Universe results. But do you want to do this?
As someone who started out naively running my campaigns in the 5e timeframe without much of a sense of the timeline as a whole, figuring out ways address this is something I find an interesting challenge, though I can imagine it would be just frustrating for folks who want something more definitive. In general, I approach sourcebooks as historical sources--they're all describing something from a specific point of view, but the degree to which internal blind spots/personal bias cause certain points to be inaccurate or outright falsifications allows wiggle room where they contradict each other.
Yep, for me this is one of the fun things that has always been done with the realms. The designers that I like are almost always the ones that find things that are "wrong" and find some way to make them "right". For instance, this whole story that Ao copied the world, etc... exactly WHO is the source that's definitively able to say that THIS is what Ao did? Sages didn't know about Abeir until the spellplague for the most part, then basically they started listening to each others stories and trying to "figure out" what happened. I don't see Ao appearing to the people of the world and saying "let me give you a dissertation of what I just did to save you ants to me". Just like what exactly Ao did during the second sundering.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2023 : 20:23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
For instance, this whole story that Ao copied the world, etc... exactly WHO is the source that's definitively able to say that THIS is what Ao did? Sages didn't know about Abeir until the spellplague for the most part, then basically they started listening to each others stories and trying to "figure out" what happened. I don't see Ao appearing to the people of the world and saying "let me give you a dissertation of what I just did to save you ants to me". Just like what exactly Ao did during the second sundering....
quote:
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, Chapter 2, History - page 42
The most common account of Toril’s prehistory traces its roots back to ancient Netheril. This popular human myth recounts the creation of the universe by Lord Ao and the epic struggle between the gods of light and darkness that followed. Only recently have other, more ancient legends come to light, recounted by the sarrukh of Okoth and echoed by the dragonborn of Returned Abeir. By combining common threads from both accounts, backed by diligent factfinding missions, scholars and historians of today have gained a clearer understanding of the creation of the universe.
The way I understand this, is that for a long time sages and scholars believed the Netherese records to be the actual history of the world, something that was unwise, as there are older civilizations than the Netherese out there.
So, when they discovered the sarrukh records, records of a civilization that predated Netheril, and then the dragonborn legends from Laerakond, and saw that these two sources coincided, they were at a loss because those sources mean the Netherese records weren't completely true. They had to search for points in common, perhaps reinterpreting stuff and the like, to try to create a new narrative that include the new information they discovered without invalidating the Netherese records.
As for the twining of Abeir-Toril, I guess this legend is based on the "changing of the stars" from sarrukh records, and the Laerakondan legend of the "shadow of Ao", a powerful artifact that, according to the legend, has the power twin a world. The Candlekeep sages may have put two and two, and said that Ao twinned Abeir-Toril into to worlds. But, is this actually true? We may never know... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 09 Jun 2023 20:24:53 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2023 : 21:08:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
For instance, this whole story that Ao copied the world, etc... exactly WHO is the source that's definitively able to say that THIS is what Ao did? Sages didn't know about Abeir until the spellplague for the most part, then basically they started listening to each others stories and trying to "figure out" what happened. I don't see Ao appearing to the people of the world and saying "let me give you a dissertation of what I just did to save you ants to me". Just like what exactly Ao did during the second sundering....
quote:
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, Chapter 2, History - page 42
The most common account of Toril’s prehistory traces its roots back to ancient Netheril. This popular human myth recounts the creation of the universe by Lord Ao and the epic struggle between the gods of light and darkness that followed. Only recently have other, more ancient legends come to light, recounted by the sarrukh of Okoth and echoed by the dragonborn of Returned Abeir. By combining common threads from both accounts, backed by diligent factfinding missions, scholars and historians of today have gained a clearer understanding of the creation of the universe.
The way I understand this, is that for a long time sages and scholars believed the Netherese records to be the actual history of the world, something that was unwise, as there are older civilizations than the Netherese out there.
So, when they discovered the sarrukh records, records of a civilization that predated Netheril, and then the dragonborn legends from Laerakond, and saw that these two sources coincided, they were at a loss because those sources mean the Netherese records weren't completely true. They had to search for points in common, perhaps reinterpreting stuff and the like, to try to create a new narrative that include the new information they discovered without invalidating the Netherese records.
As for the twining of Abeir-Toril, I guess this legend is based on the "changing of the stars" from sarrukh records, and the Laerakondan legend of the "shadow of Ao", a powerful artifact that, according to the legend, has the power twin a world. The Candlekeep sages may have put two and two, and said that Ao twinned Abeir-Toril into to worlds. But, is this actually true? We may never know...
Exactly, people had to throw together what they "figured out" happened, but what's true.
Just to throw out something .... we have ubtAO ... who is supposedly a PRIMORDIAL who betrayed his fellow primordials... who is also hinted heavily as possibly also being Qotal.... well this god ubtAO also split off a portion of himself... the shadow of ubtAO which became known as Eshowdow. This ubtAO supposedly created the jungles of Chult by binding himself to the land and pushing out all other pantheons... essentially making himself the "overgod" of this region.
Throw into all of this as well how much Ubtao / Qotal sound like Parrafaire as well if you really start digging into them... and Parrafaire was known for hiding the body of a powerful but dead god in the land. He's also known as "the Prince of Hidden Secrets"... almost like "the Hidden One"...
Not quite sure where exactly to take this, but the story hear just has a ring to it that "we don't quite have the whole truth of what's going on here". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2023 : 05:27:56
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by Returnip
... Just the massive time skip kills off pretty much every NPC that isn't an elf or a dwarf and along with them all their plots, agendas etc.
Off-topic ... I'll create a new scroll if it looks like this will derail things ...
But this seems to be the only relevant mention of elven/dwarven longevity in the game.
I mean, you make a character who is an elf or a dwarf (or some other race) which has longevity far beyond that of humans. This is great. You'll live for centuries! You can survive casting more of those spells or fighting more of those monsters which inflict aging.
But then what? What use is a long lifespan in a game which doesn't have an equally long timespan? Being able to live 500 more years is hardly important in an epic which only spans a decade or two.
This has become less important with newer editions as well. Haste used to age you. Ghosts used to age you. I think wishes maybe used to age you?
Haste, Wish, Limited Wish, Alter Reality, a variety of necromantic spells, some future-scrying/phrophecy spells, they all aged you.
Raising, resurrection, regeneration, restoration, and some other high-end healing/fixing spells would age both the caster and the recipient.
1E provided a sort of conversion chart which made the aging more of a proportional thing than an absolute thing. For example, an elf might have seven times the lifespan, but would suffer seven times the aging effects in game, would age 7 years while a human would age 1 year.
I understand that this aging mechanic has been greatly nerfed in subsequent editions. Reserved for only the most horrible things. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2023 : 05:59:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As for the twining of Abeir-Toril, I guess this legend is based on the "changing of the stars" from sarrukh records, and the Laerakondan legend of the "shadow of Ao", a powerful artifact that, according to the legend, has the power twin a world. The Candlekeep sages may have put two and two, and said that Ao twinned Abeir-Toril into to worlds. But, is this actually true? We may never know...
One thing that's long bugged me about the "changing of the stars" line is the assumption that it means everything in the heavens changed. But we don't know that. We have absolutely no information about how the stars changed.
The line certainly could mean a dramatic change in the heavens, with new stars or new stellar formations in place of the old ones... But it could also mean something as simple as looking into the sky one summer eve and seeing that the constellations that were there the night before are now in different places; it could even be that the stars and constellations of the winter sky have swapped positions with the summer sky. That's still a big deal, but it's not nearly as big a deal as the stars being entirely replaced with new ones. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Jun 2023 16:07:46 |
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Reasonable to consider 5E (or 4E) its own canon?
