Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Is anyone running an Abeir campaign?
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3

dead
Acolyte

22 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2023 :  03:30:46  Show Profile Send dead a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I’ve been thinking about this for awhile, now. But I think it would be cool to run a campaign set on Toril’s sister planet, Abeir.

There’s only a smattering of lore out there on the world but I was wondering if there might be a published setting that could serve as Abeir. I understand some work will be involved, which is OK. But any help from a published setting would be great for a time-poor GM.

Some people have called Abeir an Athas before it became a wasteland as it has no gods. So I explored that path but Athas and its history doesn’t seem the right fit.

So, I then considered Scarred Lands. I don’t know much about the setting except that 150 years ago the gods and titans had a world-shaking conflict, with the gods ultimately winning. The war left the world scarred from the conflict. Abeir doesn’t have gods, but there was a war between the Primordials and their dragon mounts. So perhaps the gods/titans war of Scarred Lands could be swapped out for the Primordials/dragons war of Abeir (known as the War of Fang and Talon)? And the very short 150 years can be extended to 30,000 years ago when the Primordial/dragons’ war occurred.

I also had a double purpose for Abeir… I was going to say that Abeir is the home world of the Alien Dragons that visited Krynn in the Age of Mortals.

The gargantuan size of these dragons would suit the backstory of them being the servitors/mounts of the Primordials on Abeir.

And, it is said that after the dragons had defeated their Primordial masters on Abeir, a mighty dragon called Gorloun founded the first dragon empire, and soon rival draconic realms sprang up thereafter, and the long Rule of Dragons began. So perhaps the five Alien Dragons who descended on Krynn were exiles from Abeir or simply sought out new realms in the multiverse to conquer as Abeir was overcrowded with dragon rulers.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone who knew the Scarred Lands setting well enough, or who knew of possibly another published setting, could let me know if it could be serviceable as an Abeir with some work involved?

—————

Scarred Lands titans

- Chern - “The Scourge”
- Gaurak - “The Glutton”
- Golthagga - “The Shaper”
- Golthain - “The Faceless”
- Gormoth - “The Writhing Lord”
- Gulaben - “Lady of the Winds”
- Hrinruuk - “The Hunter”
- Kadum - “The Mountainshaker”
- Lethene - “The Dame of Storms”
- Mesos - “Sire of Sorcery”
- Mormo - “Mother of Serpents”
- Thulkas - “Father of Fire”

——————

Abeir primordials

- Achazar - “The Pillar of Wrath” (dormant)
- Arambar (deceased)
- Asgorath - “The World Shaper”
- Atropus - “The World Born Dead”
- Rorn - “The Blazing Fury” (hiding in the Howling Mountains of Laerakond)
- Bwimb
- Cirotralech (sleeping in the Howling Mountains of Laerakond)
- Dur-baagal (dead)
- Draunn (a fragment of him is sealed in Deadstone Cleft in Greypeak Mountains)
- Entropy
- Erek-Hus - “The King of Terror” (dead)
- Karshimis (this primordial despot was one of the few active primordials of Abeir - he rules Shyr, a continent on Abeir)
- Maegera - “The Inferno” (trapped under Gauntlgrym)
- Miska - “The Wolf-Spider” (banished)
- Mual-Tar - “The Thunder Serpent” (held captive by magical chains forged by Moradin)
- Nehushta (dead)
- Petron - “The Merciless” (dead)
- The Queen of Chaos
- Telos (he fell to the earth during the Spellplague, landing in Vaasa, where he remained comatose in a crater - but would now be back in Abeir, I suppose)
- Ubtao - “The Deceiver” (a god on Toril - perhaps back on Abeir, now)
- Dendar - “The Night Serpent”
- Kezef - “The Chaos Hound” (roaming Outer Planes hunting souls who had chosen to venerate one god above all others)
- Maram - “Of the Great Spear”
- Borem - “Of the Boiling Mud”

——————

Krynn Dragon Overlords (in the Age of Mortals)

Beryllinthranox (green dragon)
Gellidus (white dragon)
Khellendros (blue dragon)
Malystryx (red dragon)
Onysablet (black dragon)

——————

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36784 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2023 :  03:34:45  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I must have missed where Miska the Wolf-Spider became a primordial on Abeir instead of a demon from way back when.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

dead
Acolyte

22 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2023 :  04:05:52  Show Profile Send dead a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry, I just cut and paste all the FR Primordials from the Wiki. Miska was in there. It says she was "a demonic primordial who was once the Prince of Demons and was banished during the Dawn War."

Edited by - dead on 23 May 2023 04:09:37
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2455 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2023 :  01:21:18  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I must have missed where Miska the Wolf-Spider became a primordial on Abeir instead of a demon from way back when.



Demonomicon (the 4e sourcebook), says that Miska was originally a primordial from the Elemental Chaos who followed Tharizdun on his own will (he was one of the few who knew Tharizdun was actually a god and not the first of the primordials, as Tharizdun claimed while under his guise as the "Elder Elemental Eye"). Extended exposure to the Abyss eventually transformed Miska into a demon.

Notice that many of the demon princes were originally primordials before the Abyss corrupted them into demons. Some of these include Orcus, Demogorgon and Baphomet, among others.

Anyways, on topic. I really like the idea of having a campaign in Abeir proper. I know nothing of Scarred Lands, but Laerakond/Returned Abeir from 4e FRCG is our best source of information from Abeir. At the very least, it would tell us a few details to be taken into account:

-Dragonborn and genasi are more numerous here than the dominant races of Toril. They even outnumber humans.

-Halflings and dwarves are also common.

-Elves and fairies are more rare in Abeir than in Toril.

-There are a few dragon-ruled countries still in Shyr and the other potential continents there. Karshimis would be the big honcho, but that doesn't mean dragons couldn't be big players in Abeiran politics.

And I also had the idea that the alien dragons of Dragonlance were actually dragons from Abeir. The characteristic of Laerakondan dragons, like Gauwervyndhal's uncharacteristic color and size, gives this theory a lot of sense.

Also, other sources also give us another tips:

-There are more Far Realms entities in Abeir.

-Sorcerers should be more common, while wizards and warlocks should be rare. Artificers should be common, though their material components for spells and items are hard to get.

-The souls of the dead have fused with the arambar substance than floats in the sky. This gives a divine power source for a few rare individuals, even if the world lacks gods. Halaghotra the Healer is an example of this.

I'm going to think about more ideas.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 25 May 2023 01:22:52
Go to Top of Page

dead
Acolyte

22 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2023 :  09:42:03  Show Profile Send dead a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
At the very least, it would tell us a few details to be taken into account...


Thanks for the nice summary of things that make Abeir unique. That's handy to have.

I did some reading on the Scarred Lands setting (you can download the Ghelspad and Termana Gazetteers for free on DriveThruRPG) and have decided it is not suitable to use for Abeir. Scarred Lands is pretty much your standard humanocentric fantasy setting with your usual elves and dwarves, etc. The point of difference is that it is a bit grittier and is meant to be recovering from the gods/titan's war from 150 years ago.

The idea of a gods/titan's war only 150 years ago doesn't sit well with me either. That sort of world-shaking conflict is the sort of thing that's meant to happen in the dawn of a new world - like the Dawn War in the FR setting. It's a conflict that's meant to be mysterious and awe-inspiring from the world's ancient past - it's meant to by mythical.

In short, you would have to gut out the whole setting and just use the maps so there isn't really any point. I can make my own maps.

The only thing you could possibly steal from Scarred Lands are the titans. You could use them as Primordials but then, why would you do that, when there's already a glut of Primordials on Abeir as you can see from the list above?

So I'll keep thinking about this. But your list is very helpful.
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2455 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2023 :  01:13:17  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dead


The only thing you could possibly steal from Scarred Lands are the titans. You could use them as Primordials but then, why would you do that, when there's already a glut of Primordials on Abeir as you can see from the list above?



Or you can use 4e core primordials, if you really need more of them. No need to steal guys from another setting.

Anyways, Abeir should be an excellent setting for a low-magic gritty campaign, because fighting dragons without magic is pretty hard. Fighting the Primordials may be near impossible. On the other hand, as far as lore goes, Abeir can be so dark and grim, that most parties may not stomach adventuring there.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 27 May 2023 01:24:46
Go to Top of Page

The DMs Revenge
Acolyte

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2023 :  05:07:40  Show Profile  Visit The DMs Revenge's Homepage Send The DMs Revenge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great stuff - I've also been kicking around the idea of an Abeir campaign, but you've gotten much further along. The possibility of the alien dragons from Krynn's 5th Age is also an amazing idea!

Following.
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11742 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2023 :  16:24:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've played with the idea of writing up some history and developing Abeir for fun. Work and life gets in the way though. Much like you, I was considering the concept of the Scarred Lands and discarded it, but it's worth discussing some ideas for WHAT to do with Abeir as a campaign. The concept of the Scarred Lands PRIOR to the gods "winning" makes a great concept of how to run this campaign.

Firstly, my idea of running an Abeir campaign would be that it's post spellplague and pre-second sundering. You could also do a post-second sundering campaign with a crossover to Toril. Presenting some of my ideas in the below.

The ideas I had were that you would have Maztica, Lopango, Anchorome, and Katashaka (as in the continent directly south of Lopango) ALL getting transferred to Abeir. In addition, places like Nimbral, Lantan, portions of the Chultan peninsula (some of each of Samarach, Thindol, and Tashalar), Unther, Chessenta, Chondalwood, Mulhorand, the Shaar lands which "collapsed" also went to Abeir. This gives you some already established areas that you can work from, as well as some open maps to work from.

There ARE gods in Abeir in this scenario.... it's just that they are the gods who disappeared from Toril. They are of a power level LESS than what they were as the "sharing a body with a mortal" avatars of the time of troubles initially, but some eventually become more powerful and even exist outside of Abeir eventually. Their divine domains got transferred from being "attached" to Toril and instead became "attached" to Abeir. This is why Dweomerheart is believed to "have been destroyed".... because to Torilians its gone... but its instead attached to Abeir. Clerics of the gods have their abilities changed out such that they work like "priests" from the dm's guild product "Priestess: Ancient World Divine Class", with some rework to make sacrifice a little easier. The gods can't give spellcasting to their worshippers worldwide, and thus people have to start building divine idols in order to anchor godly power throughout the world, and people must sacrifice to the idols to keep them empowered. In the case of the gods of magic, this starts re-empowering mystra and forming a weave on Abeir, with a group of gods working as the servants of the goddess of magic (including Savras, Leira, Velsharoon, Deneir, .

The magics of Maztica and Anchorome (Plumaweaving, Hishna, and Totemic magics) are item based and work even BETTER in Abeir than they do in Toril. All arcane spellcasting in Toril CANNOT bypass the need for material components, even in areas where the weave has become firmly established. Arcane spellcasters like wizards were able to develop something akin to portable batteries which could serve to store a limited amount of energy in order to cast spells in areas where the weave isn't established.... in some ways like how a warlock casts spells.

Healing magics are virtually unknown in Abeiran cultures. With this idea of using "priests" that harness the energy to cast spells via sacrificing to gods, they won't have the ability to heal a lot either... BUT they can at least do it. Essentially, some beings from Abeiran cultures might actually turn to gods as a result (and be possibly cast out of their societies or have to hide it as a result). Temples getting built in Abeiran lands may be assaulted.

The primordials of abeir are "asleep" initially and may take decades to start waking up. This gives time for the very weak gods to slowly start gaining power. The people of Abeir also don't necessarily immediately KNOW that the transferred lands of Anchorome/Maztica/Lopango/Katashaka are there. So, say a decade or so after the transfer, maybe people and dragons of Abeir begin invading these transferred lands, and the GODS protect their people (either directly in some form of avatar form, or indirectly by providing power sources/magic of some sort). The idea is that the gods and primordials are active in the world, but its the players and NPC's that are at the forefront of things. At times, these powerful beings may need to interact with people. Play up the concept that the gods have to sometimes inhabit a mortal body in order to aid others (similar to how the binders of 3.5e "hosted" vestiges), and thus you might have an example of say Savras inhabiting the body of the "living in Abeir" Zulkir of Divination

Faerunian immigrants have come to portions of Maztica, Lopango, Anchorome, and Katashaka and have made alliances and enemies with the local populace (in my ideas, a lot of these were Thayan refugees who had started up some trade enclaves here prior to the civil war, but which mushroomed AFTER the civil war). When the transfer to Abeir happens, some Faerunian gods traverse to Abeir in order to protect these people (maybe willingly, maybe unwillingly). Some faerunians see the gods of other cultures as "their regular god using another name" and start worshipping gods of a different pantheon.

For more on using other pantheons, you might like what I did with the metahel pantheon (the metahel are some people who resemble stranded vikings in Anchorome from a 2e product). For more on that, I have a dm's guild product at the below which you may enjoy reading. It respins a lot of the "missing" gods from 4e in all interesting ways to mix both a Faerunian and Norse pantheon together POST-Ragnarok, with a twist on Ragnarok's "true" story.
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/363274/The-Metahel-Pantheon-of-Anchorome

BTW, as Zeromarux says above... Abeir is a dark and tyrannical place. The idea that I try to present in some of the above with the gods, etc... is that these "new" lands that came over from Toril are a beacon of hope. That's what I see as being the point of running an Abeiran campaign. Its NOT to run abeir as the vayemniri remember it. Its to show that the spellplague CHANGED that world as well, and hopefully with the players help they can change it for the better. Initially maybe its all by just defending their homes from Abeiran invaders, welcoming Abeiran refugees seeking asylum, etc... but eventually maybe players venture into the lands of the Abeirans and start changing things there as well... such that when the second sundering happens, there's still a "foothold of hope" remaining to fight against the draconic overlords and tyrannical primordials.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

dead
Acolyte

22 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2023 :  10:34:47  Show Profile Send dead a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Abeir is a dark and tyrannical place. The idea that I try to present in some of the above with the gods, etc... is that these "new" lands that came over from Toril are a beacon of hope. ... Its to show that the spellplague CHANGED that world as well, and hopefully with the players help they can change it for the better.


Thanks for sharing. Sounds like it would be an amazing campaign.

Edited by - dead on 04 Jun 2023 10:35:56
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2455 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2023 :  17:24:47  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


the spellplague CHANGED that world as well, and hopefully with the players help they can change it for the better.



Too bad 5e undid all of the t4e changes, so an Abeir post-SS should have returned to be the apocalyptic world from before just for Ao to enjoy his unchanging and stagnated status quo.

Personal opinions on the 5e lore aside, I don't really like the idea to add gods to Abeir. I guess it robs the setting of one of his most interesting premises: "what happens to a world without gods?" Is like playing hard mode in the Forgotten Realms.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 04 Jun 2023 17:25:33
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11742 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2023 :  02:58:28  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


the spellplague CHANGED that world as well, and hopefully with the players help they can change it for the better.



Too bad 5e undid all of the t4e changes, so an Abeir post-SS should have returned to be the apocalyptic world from before just for Ao to enjoy his unchanging and stagnated status quo.

Personal opinions on the 5e lore aside, I don't really like the idea to add gods to Abeir. I guess it robs the setting of one of his most interesting premises: "what happens to a world without gods?" Is like playing hard mode in the Forgotten Realms.



See... you're thinking a bit just like the people that wrote 4e did when they supposed what Abeir was like following the spellplague. That the world was just like it was when they left it. Then you're thinking that it will go right back to that vacuum when the second sundering happens.

So, if the gods established a small foothold in the Abeiran lands, then when the lands transfer... the gods still have that foothold. Add to that that there are now people returning to Abeir who were RAISED ON TORIL. They weren't ever on Abeir in their lifetime. While I won't say they all embraced gods, I would say a decent portion of those returning aren't against the concept of the divine.

I will also add that its not all about gods EITHER. If the followers of the gods of magic established even the most basic weave in portions of Abeir, then there are spellcasters coming from Toril who are familiar with Toril's magic coming over to Abeir. You might have regions that may not be able to go out AGAINST the tyrants... but maybe kind of like a mythal, they can DEFEND their homes. If they have to revert back to the idea I mentioned of "not clerics, but priests who have to sacrifice to idols", then they may have clergy as well in their homelands... and clergy means healing... and healing is special in Abeir.

So, you could have something kind of like a reverse idea of Athas where there are cities ruled by councils of powerful individuals intent on protecting their citizenry. Literally... a points of light campaign that makes a lot more sense than it did on Toril.

Nor is it all about magic either. What other wonders of Toril might be returning with them? Smokepowder weaponry? Technologies that Abeirans just didn't have like a printing press? What about sociological changes such as KNOWING that the world can be different... KNOWING that they came from a world where dragons are hunted? Hope is a powerful tool, and it can bring about revolution to overthrow tyranny.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2455 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2023 :  04:04:10  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas



See... you're thinking a bit just like the people that wrote 4e did when they supposed what Abeir was like following the spellplague. That the world was just like it was when they left it. Then you're thinking that it will go right back to that vacuum when the second sundering


Isn't that what happened to Toril after the Second Sundering? It returned to the point it was just before the Spellplague happened, save for a small addition in the form of Tymanther (as the current status of Akanûl and Laerakond is unconfirmed and uncertain - if we go by Adventurer's League, they are not in Toril, if we go by Ed, they still are).

quote:
So, if the gods established a small foothold in the Abeiran lands, then when the lands transfer... the gods still have that foothold.


Why Ao would permit that? As far as we know, all primordials left Toril by Ao's command. Following the logic of the lore of the Second Sundering, why would Ao allow gods to remain in Abeir, if his intention was to return everything to the status quo of before? He would have commanded them to left Abeir, as well.

Even if we go by your idea, we should device a convoluted way to explain why the gods decided to remain there, defying Ao's decree, and the consequences of that. After all, the circumstances of Tymanther remaining in Toril where specific and against Ao's design, and had certain consequences.

quote:
If the followers of the gods of magic established even the most basic weave in portions of Abeir, then there are spellcasters coming from Toril who are familiar with Toril's magic coming over to Abeir.


I think this goes against the setting idea of trying to use magic in a different and more difficult ambient. Part of the appealing of Abeir to me is that it is completely alien to Toril, and perhaps only the player characters can use it. A world were wizards are ultra rare and other power sources have gained the preeminence. I'm thinking in something like primal power completely replacing divine power in 4e Dark Sun, for instance. In Abeir, arcane and divine power may have been completely replaced by primal or psionics.

Also, I hate the idea of giving even more power to Mystra, lol. The tyrant has already too much power in Toril.

quote:

So, you could have something kind of like a reverse idea of Athas where there are cities ruled by councils of powerful individuals intent on protecting their citizenry. Literally... a points of light campaign that makes a lot more sense than it did on Toril.


The idea is attractive I can't deny it. It would need some modifications to be appealing to me, though.

quote:
Nor is it all about magic either. What other wonders of Toril might be returning with them? Smokepowder weaponry? Technologies that Abeirans just didn't have like a printing press? What about sociological changes such as KNOWING that the world can be different...
KNOWING that they came from a world where dragons are hunted? Hope is a powerful tool, and it can bring about revolution to overthrow tyranny.



Smokepowder wasn't that common on Toril during the 4e Realms, so I doubt it could have reached Abeir in significant quantities. Perhaps the additions of artificers? That's an arcane magic that can work on Abeir, lorewise.

As for hunting dragons, the only reference they have are the torilian dragons, that are not as powerful and don't have the same numbers that the dragons of Abeir -- after all, Abeiran dragon bloodlines weren't crippled by an elven curse for more than 20k years.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11742 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2023 :  15:44:39  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas



See... you're thinking a bit just like the people that wrote 4e did when they supposed what Abeir was like following the spellplague. That the world was just like it was when they left it. Then you're thinking that it will go right back to that vacuum when the second sundering


Isn't that what happened to Toril after the Second Sundering? It returned to the point it was just before the Spellplague happened, save for a small addition in the form of Tymanther (as the current status of Akanûl and Laerakond is unconfirmed and uncertain - if we go by Adventurer's League, they are not in Toril, if we go by Ed, they still are).

quote:
So, if the gods established a small foothold in the Abeiran lands, then when the lands transfer... the gods still have that foothold.


Why Ao would permit that? As far as we know, all primordials left Toril by Ao's command. Following the logic of the lore of the Second Sundering, why would Ao allow gods to remain in Abeir, if his intention was to return everything to the status quo of before? He would have commanded them to left Abeir, as well.

Even if we go by your idea, we should device a convoluted way to explain why the gods decided to remain there, defying Ao's decree, and the consequences of that. After all, the circumstances of Tymanther remaining in Toril where specific and against Ao's design, and had certain consequences.

quote:
If the followers of the gods of magic established even the most basic weave in portions of Abeir, then there are spellcasters coming from Toril who are familiar with Toril's magic coming over to Abeir.


I think this goes against the setting idea of trying to use magic in a different and more difficult ambient. Part of the appealing of Abeir to me is that it is completely alien to Toril, and perhaps only the player characters can use it. A world were wizards are ultra rare and other power sources have gained the preeminence. I'm thinking in something like primal power completely replacing divine power in 4e Dark Sun, for instance. In Abeir, arcane and divine power may have been completely replaced by primal or psionics.

Also, I hate the idea of giving even more power to Mystra, lol. The tyrant has already too much power in Toril.

quote:

So, you could have something kind of like a reverse idea of Athas where there are cities ruled by councils of powerful individuals intent on protecting their citizenry. Literally... a points of light campaign that makes a lot more sense than it did on Toril.


The idea is attractive I can't deny it. It would need some modifications to be appealing to me, though.

quote:
Nor is it all about magic either. What other wonders of Toril might be returning with them? Smokepowder weaponry? Technologies that Abeirans just didn't have like a printing press? What about sociological changes such as KNOWING that the world can be different...
KNOWING that they came from a world where dragons are hunted? Hope is a powerful tool, and it can bring about revolution to overthrow tyranny.



Smokepowder wasn't that common on Toril during the 4e Realms, so I doubt it could have reached Abeir in significant quantities. Perhaps the additions of artificers? That's an arcane magic that can work on Abeir, lorewise.

As for hunting dragons, the only reference they have are the torilian dragons, that are not as powerful and don't have the same numbers that the dragons of Abeir -- after all, Abeiran dragon bloodlines weren't crippled by an elven curse for more than 20k years.



On transferred lands going back... just how much stuff "went back"? It's questionable. From the SCAG we know the Warlock Knights of Vaasa are still around, so Telos presumably is still there. As you note, a decent amount of Tymanther is still there, but SOME of Unther is returned. The Unther that's returned isn't necessarily the same either. It may have genasi and other people of Abeir in its borders during the transfer. We also note that the "floating city of Airspur and its Earthmotes still flies somehow"... so just how much of "Akanul" still exists? In my view... possibly sizable acreage. These were the main "transferred lands" from 4e that come to my mind other than Laerakond... and we still don't know if it stayed or left. So, SOME of the transferred lands in theory "returned to Abeir"... but I won't say we have a definitive answer here. It may even be that we find out that there were some places that WERE in Toril the whole time that are NOW in Abeir. From my viewpoint, they essentially gave us a buffet to work from. For the most part, its the "sages" here that keep touting "its all reset"... but we don't have anything from WotC that necessarily phrases it that way... mind you, I'm not trying to defend them... just pointing out that there may be opportunities to be had that maybe WotC never intended either.

On the gods remaining... here's my very simple answer. Some people hate this concept. Others love this concept. AO IS A LIAR. He's not nearly as powerful as he makes himself out to be. He is however very smart. As certain "conjunction" points, he can do things that are REALLY powerful... but he can't do them on a whim. Like a person setting up a domino demonstration, he has to set things in place and then kick things off. So, maybe the "twinning of the worlds" wasn't him protecting the world. Maybe it was his "oh sh*t" maneuver that he had prepared for if a large enough group of primordials was set to overwhelm HIM. Maybe the sending of some of the gods over there was his attempt to get a foothold on Abeir through his foot soldiers... some gods... and their supply chain in the form of mortal worshippers.

As a thought experiment as well, we're told that Ao, and I'm paraprhasing, "twinned the world and sent the primordials there". Again, if Ao is a liar... what's to say he didn't ESCAPE to another world he had prepared instead and dragged along members of some of these races along the way ... transferring those lands to this new world, much like the spellplague did. Saying it this way really does make it out like Ao fears these primordials and is in some kind of conflict with them.


On the weave being in Toril... it may be that its more in the hands of Mystra's servants. By servants, I mean that in terms of Toril. I fully admit, my story is still in development. The gist comes down to a LOT of "gods of magic" work together to establish the ability to perform standard arcane wizardry in Abeir (some of whom you wouldn't normally picture working together... Savras, Velsharoon, Leira, Deneir <spellbooks, scrolls, glyphs>, Karsus, a being posing as the Red Knight as a "tactical magic" goddess, and gods of other pantheons such as Thoth, etc..). We can even have some of these godlike beings having appeared and died... serving as martyrs of a sort (personally like this idea for Karsus... to have him be more noble). Eventually a weakened Mystra recovers, and she begins moving to return Dweomerheart back to Toril.... but this COULD be a really good opportunity for their to be a "new" mortal arisen in Abeir actually that takes on the Mystra "mantle" there... or even something like Mystra has left the world and Selune or Lurue or another being of this sort is helping "manage" the fledgling weave there in an entirely different method.... less structured and less of a "the gods of magic serve me" method.

In the end, the idea of their being a weave in Toril of some sort is just to allow for there being some standards that people are already familiar with if you start a game there. It may be something where people have to carry their own "battery"/power source in order to use this kind of magic, ala how the humans in dragon prince have to either use a primal source OR turn into essentially something akin to defilers. If there were something akin to primal sources, it might even involve using "parts" from powerful elemental beings... such as a primordial who went to sleep and whose body parts have been taken by the people of Abeir.


On artificers and smokepowder..... yes, it sounds like we're hitting around some of the same stuff here. In fact, I wanted to portray a different type of "artificer" there as well... basically the magics of Anchorome and Maztica are very item based (pluma, hishna, and totemic) if you look at them... and one of the things I was putting forth in some of my stuff is that these magics worked even BETTER in Abeir. While smokepowder wasn't extremely popular on Toril, we have to remember that on Toril there were wizards everywhere. Also on Abeir, the ability of everyone to craft and fire a cannon might prove very popular as it did in our own world. Using balloon skyships with bombs could be tactics changing. So, it might be that there are artificers that use magical guns, but there might just be regular guns in play. Not modern weaponry mind you... slow firing, prone to mishaps, etc.. style guns.

Below is a link to the thing I put up on DM's guild in an attempt to develop some rules for alternate types of artificers that are less "blacksmith" or "chemist" oriented. More craftsperson. Nothing says that a person who sews/weaves, carves, does taxidermy, artfully draws/writes, etc... can't be an artificer.

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/375827/True-World--Artisan--An-Artificer-Specialization-for-Plumaweavers-Hishnashapers-and-Hornsculptors


By the way, as I wrote this, the thoughts about the Dragon Prince tv series popped back in my head, and it very much can prove to be something of a model for this. For instance, the various types of elemental elves being replaced with genasi could be a quick replacement from a "look" standpoint, but dragonborn who favor certain elements also makes a lot of sense. I very much favor that this world has less of a "human looking" influence and much more reptilian/amphibian (saurial beings, snakemen, lizard folk, dragonborn, tortles, bullywugs, etc...) all taking the roles that would typically be human, elf, dwarf, goblinoid centric).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 06 Jun 2023 19:19:27
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11742 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2023 :  18:47:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the way, the original poster talking about the Scarred Lands setting.... there's several things in the scarred lands setting that would fit quite well in Abeir (whether in the 3.5e books or the 5e Scarred Lands Player's Guide <5eSLPG>).

For instance, the Slarecian civilization echoes concepts of psionics, abominations, etc..

Warlocks very much could fit in Abeir, with the various primordials acting as otherworldly patrons. From the 5eSLPG there is also a version of Warlock whose Patron is Genie Monarch. Not hard to modify to primordial beings. They may even refer to themselves as "Sha'irs" and that might raise some questions about the origins of Zakhara and its strange lack of dragons....

Much like Warlocks, the 3e concept of binders could very much fit in with the world of Abeir, with possibly individuals doing daily pacts with primordials, nature spirits, ancestor spirits etc... There was also a third party binder product that came out at one point that discussed alternate classes of binders and how they might work with "spirits" and not "vestiges" trapped elsewhere. So, they might bind with the local river spirit and get some ability from it or the local volcano spirit and get different powers. This might replace the concept of druids serving gods in the world to a degree, and the more powerful "spirits" might be "primordials".

It is obvious that Abeir DOES have undead, including dracoliches, and furthered by the fact that the Eminence of Araunt existed there. Even though there aren't "wizards" there is no reason that the concept of the 3.5e dread necromancer or a variation of the 5e eldritch knight that focuses on necromantic magic couldn't exist on Abeir (I've developed this variant of eldritch knight in my 5e Complete Red Book of Spell Strategy... though admittedly I need to re-review the rules I created in that book as I was new to 5e at that time). They could draw directly from the negative material plane rather than a "weave". In fact, the novel "Prophet of the Dead" talks of the creation of its leader Lod and says "His name was Lod. Once, he was one of the serpentfolk called nagas, and in undeath he retained all of the vast intelligence he'd enjoyed in life. That intellect notwithstanding, the necromancer who reanimated him".... so there definitely was SOME kind of necromancer in the world. In fact, it might be interesting if the only kind of "healing" known in the world was essentially draining the life of someone else to restore a different person... it can be portrayed as both good and evil.

Focusing on necromancers for a second, the idea from Scarred Lands for the city of Hollowfaust could easily be adapted to Abeir. To note, this city could be heavily adapted... for instance a quick and very much viewpoint changing form would be to make it not a human city.

Similarly, beguilers in 3.5e or the concept of the arcane trickster variant of rogue would seem to work well for Abeir.

The concept of the Dragonfire Adept, which resembles warlocks to a degree, from 3.5e Dragon Magic would very much fit Abeir.

Finally, with some reworking, the ideas in magic of incarnum in which individuals channel the power of certain types of spiritual energy to various "chakras" in their bodies could fit in this world. In some ways this might resemble the concept of the spirit binder mentioned above. It could be work thinking through the thematics of the binder with the mechanics of the incarnum wielder.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 06 Jun 2023 19:14:08
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2455 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2023 :  20:15:59  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On transferred lands going back... just how much stuff "went back"? It's questionable. From the SCAG we know the Warlock Knights of Vaasa are still around, so Telos presumably is still there.



That the Warlock Knights still exists doesn't necessarily means Telos is still in Toril. He may be, of course, but odds are also that he may have returned (or was forcefully returned) to Abeir, leaving only a few relics and chunks of ore for the Warlocks Knights to worship Talos as you worship any god: esoterically.


quote:
As you note, a decent amount of Tymanther is still there, but SOME of Unther is returned.


Ao's plan was to sent all of Tymanther to Abeir, and return all of Unther to Toril. If this ended up being a 50/50 situation it was because Enlil step up and did his magic trick, because for some unexplained reason he became fond of the dragonborn and didn't wanted they to leave. But it was Enlil's thing, not Ao's. Ao wanted everything to return to the status quo of old.


quote:
The Unther that's returned isn't necessarily the same either. It may have genasi and other people of Abeir in its borders during the transfer.


This is true, indeed. In my home Realms, I also use this idea. But we really don't know what are WotC plans for those lands (if any).


quote:
We also note that the "floating city of Airspur and its Earthmotes still flies somehow"... so just how much of "Akanul" still exists? In my view... possibly sizable acreage.


The Adventurer's League adventures have a whole plot about searching for a plant that was cultivated in Laerakond and Akanûl that has become nearly extinct because those lands "are no longer in Toril". So, at least from the Adventurer's League perspective, Airspur may be the only thing that exist of Akanûl currently: just a city.

Ed says otherwise, that Akanûl and Laerakond are still there, so, we have that conflict of lore.

quote:
From my viewpoint, they essentially gave us a buffet to work from.


This is also my point of view, but as you say we don't have a definitive answer, and two of our current sources of lore (AL and Ed Greenwood) contradict each other.


quote:

On the gods remaining... here's my very simple answer. Some people hate this concept. Others love this concept. AO IS A LIAR.


That is certainly an interesting perspective.


quote:
On the weave being in Toril...


I still don't like the idea, lol. I guess, I'm still thinking in 4e terms, but prefer other power sources to have replaced the arcane and divine powers.


quote:
I very much favor that this world has less of a "human looking" influence and much more reptilian/amphibian (saurial beings, snakemen, lizard folk, dragonborn, tortles, bullywugs, etc...) all taking the roles that would typically be human, elf, dwarf, goblinoid centric).



This idea is brilliant. I also prefer this, it gives Abeir an alien air.


Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11742 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2023 :  03:56:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, we definitely both agree on the want it to be less human-centric... that being said, according to the 4e sources that we DO have for Abeir there are at least a sizable number of human-like beings there. After all, Laerakond did have a decent amount of humans and dwarves there, correct? Also, Shyr apparently had a lot of genasi, and all those genasi WERE human'ish. So, from a design perspective, we have to accept that as canon. So, then the question we have to ask ourselves is how to handle that? Were these areas odd in that respect?

Let us assume that the answer to that last question is "yes, these regions were somehow odd for their large amount of human population"... then ask ourselves, why? Was Abeir something like the Planet of the Apes, where humanity in most areas were barbaric, hunted, and used as slave labor? Did they "dream" of the relative freedom that they found in places like Laerakond, even if it meant serving those draconic overlords?

If that IS the case, then when the Untheric and Mulhorandi people showed up, and the Mulhorandi people proved more than willing to enslave their Untheric brothers and sisters to please Karshimis the primordial.... was that viewed by their neighbors as the normal order of things? I say that because in the novel it was presented that the Mulhorandi in Abeir WERE acting as slavemasters for Karshimis (though it was a novel and viewpoints may have been skewed).

If the humans on other continents however rebelled against being enslaved (and some probably would have.... many Mazticans were used to the idea of sacrificing captives to higher powers, so some may have reverted to old practices), then the humans of Abeir may have been heartened if they heard of humans who refused to bow.

Hmmm, talking about the Mazticans that had worshipped Zaltec (many of whom had been changed into orcs, ogres, jagres, and trolls mind you)... it reminds me that Zaltec had been presented as a beast like face with two large fangs like a rattlesnake. A decent storyline could be made of a dragon that ends up serving as the "lesser avatar" of Zaltec, sharing its body in order to gain enough power to overthrow other dragons the ruled over it. A dragon might be tricked into this kind of service by its own hubris in which it believes that it cannot be controlled, etc... Worth thinking about this idea to see if it can be improved upon.

But back to the point.... so the REST of the world is reptilian/amphibian? It might be worth listing the various races that might exist

Dragonborn
saurials (dinosaur folk who may not have survived on Toril, but that might be related to the dinosaur folk that LATER came to Toril in Azure Bonds, etc...)
Sarrukh (serpent folk)
Nagas
"Old Ones" - a lizard man like race... https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Old_One
kobolds / urds
lizard folk
dragonkin (winged/tailed dragonborn like beings)
tortles
bullywugs
ophidians
yuan-ti
Lamia nobles (because Meremoth of the eminence of Araunt is said to be an undead lamia... so it makes sense to have her with a snake bottom)
Khaastas
Firenewts
Asabis
troglodytes
grung
pterafolk
Any others?

In this idea, the Lamia nobles might keep humans as a breeding stock, since humans are known to be able to mate with lamias and some admittedly older sources state that they can only breed via humans..

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2023 :  15:40:39  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not running an Abeir campaign, but I am running a Toril campaign that involves lots of Abeiran stuff.

The second half of the Adventurers League Dreams of the Red Wizards campaign involves a lost Abeiran dragonborn city that's being fought over by Thayans and denizens of the Far Realm.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

Head admin of the FR wiki:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2455 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2023 :  04:00:01  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

So, we definitely both agree on the want it to be less human-centric... that being said, according to the 4e sources that we DO have for Abeir there are at least a sizable number of human-like beings there. After all, Laerakond did have a decent amount of humans and dwarves there, correct? Also, Shyr apparently had a lot of genasi, and all those genasi WERE human'ish. So, from a design perspective, we have to accept that as canon. So, then the question we have to ask ourselves is how to handle that? Were these areas odd in that respect?



Well, we can say that Laerakond is where humans and dwarves are more common in Abeir. Dragonborn are more common there as well, even more common than humans or dwarves, given that they started out as members of said species (or even as half-humans/half-dwarves).

But Laerakond is just a continent among many others, that can be dominated by other species. Humanity may be still common there, just not the most common species, unlike in Toril.

Shyr may have a big population of genasi in the lands of Karshimis, but beyond that? Other species may be dominant, as well.

quote:

then ask ourselves, why? Was Abeir something like the Planet of the Apes, where humanity in most areas were barbaric, hunted, and used as slave labor? Did they "dream" of the relative freedom that they found in places like Laerakond, even if it meant serving those draconic overlords?


I don't think humanity in Abeir is more barbarian than in Toril, though their development must be different, given their history of being enslaved by dragons and elementals. So, even if they are mostly advanced (the civilizations of Laerakond have the same level of cultural and technological development as the peoples of Faerûn, so perhaps Shyr is not far behind), I can see humans living in fear of slavehunters and the like.

But yes, I see people missing Laerakond and its relative freedom.

quote:

If that IS the case, then when the Untheric and Mulhorandi people showed up, and the Mulhorandi people proved more than willing to enslave their Untheric brothers and sisters to please Karshimis the primordial.... was that viewed by their neighbors as the normal order of things?


This seems to be the case.

quote:

If the humans on other continents however rebelled against being enslaved (and some probably would have.... many Mazticans were used to the idea of sacrificing captives to higher powers, so some may have reverted to old practices), then the humans of Abeir may have been heartened if they heard of humans who refused to bow.


Maybe, or maybe not. People can be particular, so I think we can't generalize. Some people may be, but others can be so accustomed to be slaves that they may not want to change the systems. Look to the Mulhorandi if you want an example of people who love to be enslaved by their "betters".

quote:

But back to the point.... so the REST of the world is reptilian/amphibian? It might be worth listing the various races that might exist


Evidence suggests that humanity may have been the dominant species of Abeir once, but lots of modifications from dragons and primordials changed that, with means that the species from the other unknown continents of Abeir may have started out as humans, a well.

So, the other continents may have a majority of reptilians and elemental species, but humanity may be the second or third most numerous species.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
Go to Top of Page

dead
Acolyte

22 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2023 :  12:11:21  Show Profile Send dead a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
In Abeir, arcane and divine power may have been completely replaced by primal or psionics.



The Forgotten Realms Wiki says, “Psionics were also a type of magic that could be used on this world, however this kind of magic seemed to be as uncommon on Abeir as it was on Toril.”

They site 4E’s Psionic Power book for that info.
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11742 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2023 :  20:45:59  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would not presume the thing that humans had ever really been dominant there. When the world split, the humans had not been dominant yet that we know of. The batrachi were in power, in conflict with giantkind, and the sarrukh were still around to some degree. At least, that's what we're led to believe.


So, just since we're throwing around ideas of what to do with certain races, etc.... when the world split, the fey hadn't really come to Toril yet. Orcs hadn't really come to toril yet. It is worth questioning HOW dwarves ended up in Abeir since they supposedly weren't on Toril yet (so, ARE the dwarves of Abeir not of Moradin's creation... or maybe birthed of stone as the creation of a primordial). Do humans end up taking on the role there in many lands that would typically be held by orcs and goblins and are they possibly despised for such "fast breeding". Do some races relish this fast breeding because they find that keeping herds of humans makes for a useful way to make sausage. Not married to any of these ideas.... just trying to throw out ideas to make the story of the world different.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 09 Jun 2023 20:48:12
Go to Top of Page

dead
Acolyte

22 Posts

Posted - 10 Jun 2023 :  04:04:56  Show Profile Send dead a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mmm... human sausages.

Also throwing out ideas... Maybe 3e's Magic of Incarnum could be used. But, instead of incarnum (which is meant to be a power source provided by souls) you could use arambar, the ambient energy in the steel sky of Abeir that was the residual energy left by the death of the primordial, Arambar.

I don't own Magic of Incarnum but it might add a different flavour to magic on Abeir.
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2455 Posts

Posted - 10 Jun 2023 :  04:27:45  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Dawn War has this tale about how Moradin was so proud of his firstborn dwarves, that he bragged too much about it and the primordials got envious. They marched upon Stoneroot, Moradin's greatest mountain, and laid siege to the first dwarven cities, demanding the dwarves of their own. According to some legends, pleased that the primordials appreciated his creations, Moradin gave generously and returned to his forge. Other accounts say that Moradin clashed against the primordial Vezzuvu to defend the dwarven race, but was outmatched and fled, seeking the aid of his fellow gods. At Vezzuvu’s hands, the dwarves were enslaved and Stoneroot was smashed to rubble. The primordials gave the dwarves to the giants as slaves, which the giants used to carve an
empire, starting a time known to the dwarves as the Age of Chains. Moradin and the other gods would rescue the dwarves some time later, during the Dawn War proper (there are at least three different 4e sources that mention this legend).

This legend can be true, or perhaps only partially true. Perhaps Moradin gave the primordials a group of dwarves, and those dwarves are the ancestors of the current Abeiran dwarves. Perhaps it happened during the Dawn War, as the legends say, or perhaps some time after but the legend of their rescue was associated with the Dawn War by the storytellers for some reason.

As for the humans, you may be right. During the twining, humans were stated to be still cavemen (I don't know exactly when they evolved from cavemen to the Realmsian equivalent of the homo sapiens). So, yeah, I guess that primordials, and later the dragons, saw them as that fast-breeding slave race. Specially if humans were the precious creatures of the gods, that got trapped in Abeir during the twining. The primordials would have been happy to enslave them just out of spite.

As for the fey, it's stated in the FRCG that they are rather rare in Laerakond. So, I guess they should be uncommon in the rest of Abeir.

There are orcs in Fimbrul, to the north of Laerakond, meaning that at some point a portal to the orc world was opened (as I don't think Abeir is the orc world).

quote:
Originally posted by dead


The Forgotten Realms Wiki says, “Psionics were also a type of magic that could be used on this world, however this kind of magic seemed to be as uncommon on Abeir as it was on Toril.”

They site 4E’s Psionic Power book for that info.



Oh yeah. Psionic Power has a section about psionics in Returned Abeir. I going to read it.

quote:
Originally posted by dead

Mmm... human sausages.

Also throwing out ideas... Maybe 3e's Magic of Incarnum could be used. But, instead of incarnum (which is meant to be a power source provided by souls) you could use arambar, the ambient energy in the steel sky of Abeir that was the residual energy left by the death of the primordial, Arambar.

I don't own Magic of Incarnum but it might add a different flavour to magic on Abeir.



Well, the FRPG implies that souls trapped in the arambar are a source of divine magic (see the Defender of the Steelsky paragon path flavor lore).

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Jun 2023 04:31:21
Go to Top of Page

dead
Acolyte

22 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2023 :  12:54:10  Show Profile Send dead a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I saw someone say in a post that "Ed Greenwood said that it's possible for wizards to use magic on Abeir, but they need to retrain themselves from scratch, as the magical practices of Toril are useless in Abeir."

And the FR Wiki says:

"The only magic that worked normally on Abeir was what a creature could create on its own, such as the inherent elemental magic a primordial had in its body or a dragon's breath. Magic items also worked normally on Abeir, and Abeiran dragons usually scavenged primordial corpses in order to create powerful artifacts from their remains, such as the Breath of Petron. Psionics were also a type of magic that could be used on this world, however this kind of magic seemed to be as uncommon on Abeir as it was on Toril."

So, a wizard or priest from Toril can travel to, say, Oerth or Krynn and be able to cast spells OK, but on Abeir they will not be able to.

So the above implies there is no spellcasting on Abeir except for some use of Psionics - but this is "uncommon".

And if Ed says magic is on Abeir, it's just that wizards from Toril have to retrain themselves, then why haven't the natives of Abeir learnt wizardry/sorcery in all the millennia they have existed?

I understand why they may have not learnt priestcraft because there are no gods, but even then, divine power can come from other sources. It can come from within in some. It can come from the Arambar perhaps.
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2455 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2023 :  18:27:43  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Brimstone Angels novels (by Erin Evans) state that people on Abeir have developed their own magic practices, but they are different from those of Toril. Since there is "no Weave" (as in, something similar to Toril's Weave), ways to access the magical energies of the world are more complex. You need some "internal connection", such as that innate for dragons and primordials (meaning sorcerers may have no problems accessing magic, much like psionics as well). In the novels, the dragons and dragonborn usually scavenged primordials' corpses to use the remains to create powerful artifacts, as those remains already had connections to the magic energies (artifacts such as the Breath of Petron, or the Eye of Blazing Rorn).

I guess that Torilian wizards must have to first train themselves to attune to the magical forces of Abeir first, and this is complicated when you're already accustomed to a lifetime of using the Weave of Mystra (that even in Toril is like an easy mode for accessing the magical energies of the world). It would be complicated and may take many years.

As for why Torilian wizards can do their tricks in Oerth and Krynn, and viceversa, but no in Abeir, I guess the gods of Toril, Krynn and Oerth have arrangements, so they may have ways for mages to adapt to the particular magical environment of their worlds. But I don't think the gods have made such arrangements with the primordials of Abeir...

Does that means that there are no wizards on Abeir? I doubt it. There may be no wizards on Abeir the way we know the Torilian wizards (the ones using the mechanics from the PHB), but there should be other practices that work there instead. For instance, the genasi and even some Abeiran humans could use the Sha'ir practices (that in 4e weren't part of the Arcane source power, but rather from the Elemental source), that have different game mechanics, and access the magical energies in a different way.

But again, my point of view is from that of the 4e ruleset, so take it with that in mind.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 11 Jun 2023 18:38:29
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2455 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2023 :  09:57:08  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was reading about Akanûl, and it's mentioned that its environment and climate are closer to what those things are on Abeir. It would be a good idea to check it out if you plan to homebrew your own regions.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11742 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2023 :  22:38:22  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

The Dawn War has this tale about how Moradin was so proud of his firstborn dwarves, that he bragged too much about it and the primordials got envious. They marched upon Stoneroot, Moradin's greatest mountain, and laid siege to the first dwarven cities, demanding the dwarves of their own. According to some legends, pleased that the primordials appreciated his creations, Moradin gave generously and returned to his forge. Other accounts say that Moradin clashed against the primordial Vezzuvu to defend the dwarven race, but was outmatched and fled, seeking the aid of his fellow gods. At Vezzuvu’s hands, the dwarves were enslaved and Stoneroot was smashed to rubble. The primordials gave the dwarves to the giants as slaves, which the giants used to carve an
empire, starting a time known to the dwarves as the Age of Chains. Moradin and the other gods would rescue the dwarves some time later, during the Dawn War proper (there are at least three different 4e sources that mention this legend).

This legend can be true, or perhaps only partially true. Perhaps Moradin gave the primordials a group of dwarves, and those dwarves are the ancestors of the current Abeiran dwarves. Perhaps it happened during the Dawn War, as the legends say, or perhaps some time after but the legend of their rescue was associated with the Dawn War by the storytellers for some reason.

As for the humans, you may be right. During the twining, humans were stated to be still cavemen (I don't know exactly when they evolved from cavemen to the Realmsian equivalent of the homo sapiens). So, yeah, I guess that primordials, and later the dragons, saw them as that fast-breeding slave race. Specially if humans were the precious creatures of the gods, that got trapped in Abeir during the twining. The primordials would have been happy to enslave them just out of spite.

As for the fey, it's stated in the FRCG that they are rather rare in Laerakond. So, I guess they should be uncommon in the rest of Abeir.

There are orcs in Fimbrul, to the north of Laerakond, meaning that at some point a portal to the orc world was opened (as I don't think Abeir is the orc world).




I like that idea for the dwarves of Abeir, and giving them a great reverence for the primordials would seem very fitting. They may even have nasty stories of other kinds of dwarves in their history that follow some "evil" Moradin being that wants to take them away from the primordials. Given that Telos was a primordial who allows himself to be mined (he regenerates) and turned into ironfell... but he came from Abeir... it might be interesting if there were some dwarves who were grim tyrants that were missing the ironfell after he left.

On the humans thing, then yeah, I think I do like the idea of most humans there being barbaric. In fact, perhaps the few civilized humans that are there can be traced to humans that came to the world from somewhere else.... just a thought... somewhat like the planet of the apes, they find a humanity that's not at their own level... and then they find dragons who enslave them and are bemused by their intellect.

On the fey thing.... yes, I totally agree... fey should be near to non-existent. Where Toril has links to the "feywild"... Abeir should possibly have links to "the spirit world". So, the spirits of the dead don't get taken by gods to outer planes. They go to another coterminous plane, where they recycle possible into the power of the world. This is essentially why I think incarnum fits this world, especially the idea of totemists who channel the spiritual energy of magical beasts, etc.... I don't necessarily like the whole incarnate tied to alignment thing for this use... that's too much like tying it to outer planes and their alignment ties. Also, making a spirit version of binder who links to the spirits (ancestors, nature, etc...) rather than vestiges makes sense.


Well, orcs could have come there from anywhere. Assuming they came from the orc world isn't necessarily true. Hell, they could have transferred from Toril in the past. They could have come from wildspace, Athas, or any number of other primes. I agree though, I don't like the idea of tying the orcgates to Abeir, as the "orc world" that that was implied to tie to had strong divine magic.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

dead
Acolyte

22 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2023 :  11:34:42  Show Profile Send dead a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

The Brimstone Angels novels (by Erin Evans) state that people on Abeir have developed their own magic practices, but they are different from those of Toril. Since there is "no Weave" (as in, something similar to Toril's Weave), ways to access the magical energies of the world are more complex. You need some "internal connection", such as that innate for dragons and primordials (meaning sorcerers may have no problems accessing magic, much like psionics as well).


It’s funny that the FR Wiki doesn’t specifically say sorcerers can cast spells on Abeir. They just say “inherent magic” like a dragon’s breath. From a 3E perspective, there were 3 catagories: spell casting, spell-like abilities and supernatural powers. A dragon’s breath weapon was a supernatural power. A drow’s darkness once per day was a spell-like ability. A sorcerer casting a spell as per the Player’s Handbook was spell casting.

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Does that means that there are no wizards on Abeir? I doubt it. There may be no wizards on Abeir the way we know the Torilian wizards (the ones using the mechanics from the PHB), but there should be other practices that work there instead. For instance, the genasi and even some Abeiran humans could use the Sha'ir practices (that in 4e weren't part of the Arcane source power, but rather from the Elemental source), that have different game mechanics, and access the magical energies in a different way.



I like the idea of the sha’ir. They certainly fit Abeir with the elemental and genie connection. There is an updated 3E sha’ir in Dragon magazine #315.

Edited by - dead on 13 Jun 2023 11:38:53
Go to Top of Page

dead
Acolyte

22 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2023 :  11:37:16  Show Profile Send dead a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I was reading about Akanûl, and it's mentioned that its environment and climate are closer to what those things are on Abeir. It would be a good idea to check it out if you plan to homebrew your own regions.



The FR wiki says the climate of Akanûl is temperate “but, owing to the large amount of wild elemental energy lingering from the separation from Abeir, wind patterns were erratic, as was weather. The climate in Akanûl was largely humid, because of the constant drift of mist and rain from the watermotes that floated over the countryside.” So it sounds like it should normally just be a temperate climate if it weren’t for the effects of the Spellplague.
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11742 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2023 :  18:44:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dead

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

The Brimstone Angels novels (by Erin Evans) state that people on Abeir have developed their own magic practices, but they are different from those of Toril. Since there is "no Weave" (as in, something similar to Toril's Weave), ways to access the magical energies of the world are more complex. You need some "internal connection", such as that innate for dragons and primordials (meaning sorcerers may have no problems accessing magic, much like psionics as well).


It’s funny that the FR Wiki doesn’t specifically say sorcerers can cast spells on Abeir. They just say “inherent magic” like a dragon’s breath. From a 3E perspective, there were 3 catagories: spell casting, spell-like abilities and supernatural powers. A dragon’s breath weapon was a supernatural power. A drow’s darkness once per day was a spell-like ability. A sorcerer casting a spell as per the Player’s Handbook was spell casting.

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Does that means that there are no wizards on Abeir? I doubt it. There may be no wizards on Abeir the way we know the Torilian wizards (the ones using the mechanics from the PHB), but there should be other practices that work there instead. For instance, the genasi and even some Abeiran humans could use the Sha'ir practices (that in 4e weren't part of the Arcane source power, but rather from the Elemental source), that have different game mechanics, and access the magical energies in a different way.



I like the idea of the sha’ir. They certainly fit Abeir with the elemental and genie connection. There is an updated 3E sha’ir in Dragon magazine #315.



Don't ask me to find it, but I know Ed recently said something on twitter or somesuch that Abeir DOES have natural sorcerers.

The idea of the "sha'ir" and the idea of the 5e warlock are mechanically very similar (i.e. they can cast spells, but only a few at a time, but they can "refill" readily with a little time). The one huge difference is that sha'ir can get ANY spell. Warlocks who take the pact boon - pact of the tome that uses the book of shadows can meanwhile cast 3 cantrips from any spellcasting class. They can then take the eldritch invocation called "Book of Ancient Secrets" and then learn rituals from any spellcasting class. There's even a warlock "otherworldly patron" option in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything for "The Genie".

One idea that pops in my head as a "mechanics" way to recreate the sha'ir in a better structured way than it was in 2e and fitting 5e would be having a couple options added. Overview of those ideas below.

1st option
Second Pact Boon feat - ... this may exist, I'd have to hunt, but I don't think so... basically warlock takes this feat and they can take a second pact boon (from pact of the chain, pact of the blade, pact of the tome, pact of the talisman). Must already have a pact boon.

2nd option to add -
Free option to those who take Otherworldy Patron (The Genie) and the Pact Boon (pact of the Chain)
The ability to use mephits as familiars. These mephits can change their shape to appear as tiny genies and are referred to as "gen" by other mephits.

3rd option to add
Sha'ir Eldritch Invocation
Requirements: Otherworldy Patron (The Genie), Pact Boon (Pact of the Tome) AND Pact Book (Pact of the Chain), must have a mephit in use as a familiar

The warlock gains another known spell, which can be no higher in level than the slot level that the warlock can normally cast (i.e. maximum 5th level). This known spell is retrieved by their gen and copied into their book of shadows, and it can be from either the warlock, bard, cleric, or druid spell list. Casting this spell uses one of their spell slots, but after casting the spell fades from their book of shadows similar to the use of a scroll, and the spell is no longer known to the warlock. A new known spell may be replaced at any time by the warlock by sending their gen familiar away to search the planes for knowledge of it. This requires a variable amount of time based on the level of the spell times a modifier based on the spell list acquired from (a warlock spell is 15 minutes, a bard or wizard spell is 30 minutes, a cleric of druid spell is 1 hour), example acquiring a 1st level warlock spell would take their gen 15 minutes to retrieve, but a 4th level cleric spell would take 4 hours to retrieve.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Jun 2023 18:46:10
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2455 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2023 :  21:47:21  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I like that idea for the dwarves of Abeir, and giving them a great reverence for the primordials would seem very fitting. They may even have nasty stories of other kinds of dwarves in their history that follow some "evil" Moradin being that wants to take them away from the primordials. Given that Telos was a primordial who allows himself to be mined (he regenerates) and turned into ironfell... but he came from Abeir... it might be interesting if there were some dwarves who were grim tyrants that were missing the ironfell after he left.


Heroes of the Elemental Chaos (4e sourcebook) has good ideas in this regard, including saying that the history that we currently know was written "by the point of view of winners", who painted the primordial as "the bad guys" (though, Karshimis isn't really helping ). The book also mentions how the Elemental Chaos has influenced some races, including humans, dwarves and dragonborn.

The book includes Realmslore as well as lore on the 4e core world and Dark Sun lore, so it may be a good idea to re-read it to mine idea.

quote:

On the fey thing.... yes, I totally agree... fey should be near to non-existent. Where Toril has links to the "feywild"...



Well, there are some fey portals in Laerakond (IIRC, in the Sword Lands), but those seem to be a post-Spellplague development. But yeah, I also believe that Abeir is more connected to primal spirits (that in 4e were part of the natural world, and not located in some other plane) than to the Feywild.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2455 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2023 :  22:35:15  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dead

It’s funny that the FR Wiki doesn’t specifically say sorcerers can cast spells on Abeir. They just say “inherent magic” like a dragon’s breath. From a 3E perspective, there were 3 catagories: spell casting, spell-like abilities and supernatural powers. A dragon’s breath weapon was a supernatural power. A drow’s darkness once per day was a spell-like ability. A sorcerer casting a spell as per the Player’s Handbook was spell casting.



Because the wiki doesn't include stuff we don't have a source to reference to, otherwise it would be fanon. And so far we haven't seen a sorcerer casting spells on Abeir in an official source. However, we know sorcerers have an innate connection to magic, as per official sources (including Ed Greenwood himself). So, we can speculate they can use magic in Abeir, though perhaps using different mechanics than those on the PHB.

Also, I did warned you that I was using the 4e ruleset as a reference . In 4e, there is no difference between spells and spell-like abilities and supernatural powers (those two things don't even exist in 4e). You just have powers, that you can use by "drawing energy" from a given power source (such as Arcane power for spells, Divine power for prayers, Primal power for evocations, and so on). The Elemental power source is special in that it can "duplicate" some powers derivated from sources such as the Arcane and Primal sources (as those sources do use the Elemental power, as well). So a sorcerer using the Elemental power source to power his spells (such as the Elementalist Sorcerer sub-class from Heroes of the Elemental Chaos) can use spells in Abeir willingly (though, only spells of elemental nature) just fine, even if another sorcerer can't use even a single cantrip because he was trained only to draw energy from the Arcane power source.

Again, this is from the perspective of the 4e ruleset. We should need to work on how a sorcerer could use spells in the 3.x and 5e rulesets.

quote:

The FR wiki says the climate of Akanûl is temperate “but, owing to the large amount of wild elemental energy lingering from the separation from Abeir, wind patterns were erratic, as was weather. The climate in Akanûl was largely humid, because of the constant drift of mist and rain from the watermotes that floated over the countryside.” So it sounds like it should normally just be a temperate climate if it weren’t for the effects of the Spellplague.


Going to check the sourcebooks, but it seems the influence of the Elemental Chaos is felt on Abeir more than in Toril, affecting the climate and the terrain, especially in places nearing the primordials' abodes. This was actually a thing in 4e, to make the terrain more fantasy-like.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 13 Jun 2023 22:41:47
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000