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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jun 2023 : 23:33:07
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Just want to throw an idea past you Zero (and anyone else reading, feel free to pipe in).
So, let's presume so far that some of what we've said is true in regards humans. By that I mean MOST humans on Abeir are barbaric and never got a chance to build great civilizations. Then I'm going to throw across what I've been talking about with my ideas for a campaign at a high level, and I'd like to hear how you see it playing out.
Spellplague happens. Maztica/Anchorome/Lopango/Katashaka transfer to Abeir. Maztica and Anchorome have a DECENT amount of humans living there and effectively acting as the main civilized folk. A decent number of Faerunians (a lot of refugees leaving Thay's civil war, but also other colonies) have made some inroads in Anchorome and Lopango. Katashaka is primarily NON-humans... basically a lot "beast humanoids" like cat folk, gnolls, frog folk, lizard folk, bird folk, wemics, centaurs, other taurics, etc.... Eventually (like after 4 to 6 decades living there), some humans do begin making inroads into Katashaka on the coastline.... relatively small colonies.
So, with that as the basis... the people of Toril find Abeir's humans. I can see some possibilities. The first being that they talk some of them into coming back to where the Torilians are staying, and the barbaric humans are awed by the Torilians. The second being that some try to clear away the civilized being ruling where the humans are and setup a new colony in Abeir lands (this might be hard as hell mind you... nigh impossible... but some might try). The third being that the barbaric humans decide to go where the Torilians are and take over. What are some other possibilities that come to mind... and quite frankly what makes the best stories (note I say stories, because I see multiple of these instances happening). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2023 : 04:03:37
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I won't say that most humans are barbarians on Abeir. After all, the civilizations of Laerakond were created when the continent was still on Abeir, and they founded cities like Tarmalune (that is basically the equivalent to Waterdeep). OTOH, the big civilizations of Laerakond were created thanks to cooperation between all species. The Windrise Ports, after all, are home to more than just humans. So, unlike Toril, civilizations on Abeir are multi-racial, with mono-racial ones being a bit less developed, but not necessarily barbarians (see the Sword Lands, that are considered a backwater place by everyone else in Laerakond, but they still have kingdoms and whatnot).
Also, in places where the primordials or dragons subjugate the bipeds, the civilizations of the bipeds should be less advanced than in those places that thrived in freedom.
My point is, not all human civilizations of Abeir are necessarily less advanced than those of Maztica or Anchorome. As the human lands of Laerakond show, there can be other places of Abeir that are as civilized than those of Faerūn. They are just a subjugated people, but not less civilized... Basically, what the Faerūnians did to the Mazticans, if you think about it...
That said, there should be barbarian civilizations on Abeir, and not necessarily all of them human. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 14 Jun 2023 04:10:44 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2023 : 16:58:07
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Ok, that's a different direction.... and admittedly, maybe I was going with too broad a brush. That's what is good about discussing this type of stuff though. Just like orcs on Toril, there may be portions of the humans there that are still cavemen... and portions that are civilized and accepted by their neighbors.
Ironically in some ways, one of the things you noted kind of fits with something I was noting as a possibility. Basically, I noted that we don't know WHEN Zakhara, as it currently, stands "appeared". It may have been there forever and a day mind you. But I could see where there may have been transfers from Abeir in prior times (would have to see the history in GHotR and maybe other spots to see how far back we have records for Zakhara). But if we look at the lore for Zakhara they are multi-racial in their cities. They have essentially powerful "elemental" beings supporting this region, in the form of genie lords. There is also a story that dragons are run out of Zakhara by the genies.
So, what if Zakhara came from Abeir in the past and their people didn't really realize what happened because it was a large enough transfer of land. It might have happened when Mystryl died or even as far back as the elven sundering OR something else like when the genies came to Calimshan. The biggest thing I could see would be that people would have noted the steelsky gone.... but what if Steelsky only appears above regions with a large draconic/dragonborn population? We often make an assumption that the people on Abeir know all about their world, but they may be as clueless beyond their local boundaries as much as Faerunian sages are about the far reaches of Toril.
If one looks at the worship in Zakhara, they do have temples, but they have thousands of gods... more like local place spirits than gods in most instances... and perhaps after coming to Toril they started adopting the gods of this world slowly. It should be noted as well that despite having genies and elemental magic... the Torilian elemental lords are treated by most cultures there almost as alien entities... like Kossuth/Grumbar/Akadi/Istishia maybe didn't have control over the elemental beings of Abeir. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2023 : 20:23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ok, that's a different direction.... and admittedly, maybe I was going with too broad a brush. That's what is good about discussing this type of stuff though. Just like orcs on Toril, there may be portions of the humans there that are still cavemen... and portions that are civilized and accepted by their neighbors.
I think that the humans of Abeir are "less advanced" than those on Toril not in a technological and societal level but in a cultural level. The have been oppressed since always, and most human civilizations may never have experienced what freedom actually is, beyond what these unruly Vayemniri do, and as we know the Vayemniri gain and lose their freedom on a regular basis, which would make many see freedom as a struggle that may not be worth all the trouble it brings, and that may have an impact on how the think and their outlook in live. They may look on the Mazticans when a certain dread, thinking "these guys don't have anyone telling them how to do things? How do they even survive on their own? Pity them". Much like the genasi of Shyr, they are just accustomed as being oppressed as the normal status quo.
Of course, there should be some humans lured by this strange Vayemniri idea of having control of their own fate, but this should be rare, not the norm. Maybe these humans may have joined the Mazticans, trying to create a live for themselves. Maybe not.
quote:
Basically, I noted that we don't know WHEN Zakhara, as it currently, stands "appeared". It may have been there forever and a day mind you.
That's an excellent question. I was searching on the wiki, and the oldest known Zakharan empire dates back to the 9th century DR, but there are implications that there have been older empires than that one. This only means the Faerūnians know little about their Zakharan neighbours.
quote:
The biggest thing I could see would be that people would have noted the steelsky gone.... but what if Steelsky only appears above regions with a large draconic/dragonborn population?
Arambar is said to surround all of Abeir, but it should appear in places where there are remains of Arambar the primordial, just like in Laerakond and Ithimir Island in Akanūl. So, if we go by this idea, perhaps there aren't remains of Arambar in Zakhara, and the steelsky dissipated over time after the arrival of these lands in Toril. If the transfer was long ago, the steelsky may have become an old legend barely remembered by the Zakharans of today (after all, time fades even legends), and so, unknown to the Faerūnians (our source of Realmslore).
quote:
the Torilian elemental lords are treated by most cultures there almost as alien entities... like Kossuth/Grumbar/Akadi/Istishia maybe didn't have control over the elemental beings of Abeir.
I remember Rich Baker once said that they had this idea back then when they created 4e, that the Elemental Lords got stranded on Toril (alongside other primordials, such as Maegera) during the twinning of the worlds. So, yes, they never went to Abeir before the Second Sundering, and may never had a power base there in ancient times. If we go by your idea, the Zakharans have no reason to know about them as something more than foreigner gods of the Faerūnians.
He also mentioned that perhaps some of the old gods may have been stranded on Abeir during that process. But in that case, it should be gods so older that they are completely unknown in Toril (and therefore to us).
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 14 Jun 2023 20:29:33 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2023 : 20:59:13
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| If the world was created specifically for the primordials, I don't see how any gods could have gotten stranded there... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2023 : 22:07:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If the world was created specifically for the primordials, I don't see how any gods could have gotten stranded there...
I did some research, and this is what Rich Baker said:
I have a pet theory that some number of primordials were "stuck" in Toril when Abeir-Toril was separated long ago... for example, the big four you mention here, or maybe the Seven Lost Gods (who look more like primordials than gods to me, anyway). That suggests there might be gods who were stranded in Abeir long ago, too. Anyway, I'm not sure how much we officially implemented that notion. We mention their existence in the FRCG, but we don't really talk about any stranding idea.
He said this in the old Gleemax forums. I happen to have archived the "Ask the Authors VI" thread. It was just his theory, but is something interesting nonetheless.
Also, I don't think Ao was careful when he twinned the world. Asgorath has him scared as hell and wanted the dangerous primordials as far away from Toril as they could. I think he twinned the worlds, saw that most primordials were in Abeir and was done with it. He did cared that some primordials remained in Toril, as long as they weren't dangerous. So, any gods trapped in Abeir (if any) were on their own. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 15 Jun 2023 03:02:50 |
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dead
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2023 : 09:18:46
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
...So, what if Zakhara came from Abeir in the past and their people didn't really realize what happened because it was a large enough transfer of land. It might have happened when Mystryl died or even as far back as the elven sundering OR something else like when the genies came to Calimshan.
The FR wiki says in -7800 DR, the djinn arrived, along with their human and halfling slaves from Zakhara, in the area around where Calimport would later stand. There they founded the Calim Empire.
I dont know why these djinn left Zakhara, though. Were they just colonising? Or some other reason.
But if you take that date (-7800 DR) then Zakhara has been around since then at least. |
Edited by - dead on 15 Jun 2023 11:49:48 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2023 : 13:42:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If the world was created specifically for the primordials, I don't see how any gods could have gotten stranded there...
I did some research, and this is what Rich Baker said:
I have a pet theory that some number of primordials were "stuck" in Toril when Abeir-Toril was separated long ago... for example, the big four you mention here, or maybe the Seven Lost Gods (who look more like primordials than gods to me, anyway). That suggests there might be gods who were stranded in Abeir long ago, too. Anyway, I'm not sure how much we officially implemented that notion. We mention their existence in the FRCG, but we don't really talk about any stranding idea.
He said this in the old Gleemax forums. I happen to have archived the "Ask the Authors VI" thread. It was just his theory, but is something interesting nonetheless.
Also, I don't think Ao was careful when he twinned the world. Asgorath has him scared as hell and wanted the dangerous primordials as far away from Toril as they could. I think he twinned the worlds, saw that most primordials were in Abeir and was done with it. He did cared that some primordials remained in Toril, as long as they weren't dangerous. So, any gods trapped in Abeir (if any) were on their own.
I like this idea, and its one that I'd been considering but hadn't actually put into writing. I especially like that statement "I don't think Ao was careful when he twinned the world".
Regarding possible gods in Abeir... I'm not quite sure where to take this, but the "ideas" I've been floating of the Torilian gods have been of the gods being in the world and "working through the transferred Torilians" to get things established there. So, they might appear and protect some village from a dragon. This inspires worship in that god. They build a temple and an idol dedicated to that god. The god grows stronger and locally his priests (again using rules from Priestess: An ancient world divine class... not clerics) sacrifice to the idols and can perform magic. EVENTUALLY the gods start sending their followers out to find divine artifacts of various sorts and "lay them on the altars"... and the gods are taking the power of these artifacts to reempower themselves there. Some of these "divine artifacts" might consist of finding the dead body of a prior god ... and maybe THAT enables the Torilian gods to go from "lesser avatar sharing a body with a mortal" to "manifestation of a god still bound to the prime... still less than a regular avatar... but able to do more than share a body".
Also, Wooly, in reference to your question then.... Why did Ao leave primordials in Toril? He definitely did. We obviously don't have the "truth". We have what sages have figured out. What sages have figured out may be close to the truth (or far from it), but its painted with broad strokes. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2023 : 14:23:01
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Also, Wooly, in reference to your question then.... Why did Ao leave primordials in Toril? He definitely did. We obviously don't have the "truth". We have what sages have figured out. What sages have figured out may be close to the truth (or far from it), but its painted with broad strokes.
The issue, to me, isn't where the primordials were -- the issue is that both primordials and gods were all on the one world that exists, and then Ao created a second world to separate them. This new world had neither gods nor primordials, but it was created for the primordials, so that's where they ended up. My issue is that gods were somehow stuck on a world where they had never been before and where there was no reason for them to be.
It'd be like if a husband and wife divorced, the husband moves out and gets his own place -- and then one of his former in-laws moves in with him.
(Honestly, the whole thing illustrates part of why I hate that whole retcon: it presents so many new problems, and the same thing could have been accomplished in other ways, without a retcon and without creating other issues) |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Jun 2023 14:24:55 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2023 : 15:13:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ok, that's a different direction.... and admittedly, maybe I was going with too broad a brush. That's what is good about discussing this type of stuff though. Just like orcs on Toril, there may be portions of the humans there that are still cavemen... and portions that are civilized and accepted by their neighbors.
I think that the humans of Abeir are "less advanced" than those on Toril not in a technological and societal level but in a cultural level. The have been oppressed since always, and most human civilizations may never have experienced what freedom actually is, beyond what these unruly Vayemniri do, and as we know the Vayemniri gain and lose their freedom on a regular basis, which would make many see freedom as a struggle that may not be worth all the trouble it brings, and that may have an impact on how the think and their outlook in live. They may look on the Mazticans when a certain dread, thinking "these guys don't have anyone telling them how to do things? How do they even survive on their own? Pity them". Much like the genasi of Shyr, they are just accustomed as being oppressed as the normal status quo.
Of course, there should be some humans lured by this strange Vayemniri idea of having control of their own fate, but this should be rare, not the norm. Maybe these humans may have joined the Mazticans, trying to create a live for themselves. Maybe not.
quote:
Basically, I noted that we don't know WHEN Zakhara, as it currently, stands "appeared". It may have been there forever and a day mind you.
That's an excellent question. I was searching on the wiki, and the oldest known Zakharan empire dates back to the 9th century DR, but there are implications that there have been older empires than that one. This only means the Faerūnians know little about their Zakharan neighbours.
quote:
The biggest thing I could see would be that people would have noted the steelsky gone.... but what if Steelsky only appears above regions with a large draconic/dragonborn population?
Arambar is said to surround all of Abeir, but it should appear in places where there are remains of Arambar the primordial, just like in Laerakond and Ithimir Island in Akanūl. So, if we go by this idea, perhaps there aren't remains of Arambar in Zakhara, and the steelsky dissipated over time after the arrival of these lands in Toril. If the transfer was long ago, the steelsky may have become an old legend barely remembered by the Zakharans of today (after all, time fades even legends), and so, unknown to the Faerūnians (our source of Realmslore).
quote:
the Torilian elemental lords are treated by most cultures there almost as alien entities... like Kossuth/Grumbar/Akadi/Istishia maybe didn't have control over the elemental beings of Abeir.
I remember Rich Baker once said that they had this idea back then when they created 4e, that the Elemental Lords got stranded on Toril (alongside other primordials, such as Maegera) during the twinning of the worlds. So, yes, they never went to Abeir before the Second Sundering, and may never had a power base there in ancient times. If we go by your idea, the Zakharans have no reason to know about them as something more than foreigner gods of the Faerūnians.
He also mentioned that perhaps some of the old gods may have been stranded on Abeir during that process. But in that case, it should be gods so older that they are completely unknown in Toril (and therefore to us).
So, I hate to respond in line with multiple things because reading it, I get lost, so I'm going to try and make one response here. I hope its not confusing.
So, one idea I've played with is the idea that Anchorome actually has more ties to Abeir than other parts of the world. If we look at the history of Anchorome and Maztica both... the humans of THAT region all reportedly come to the surface from caverns in the ground. Some find the great spirits in Anchorome. Others find the gods in Maztica. But they all came from essentially "the underdark".
So, WHAT IF the humans of Maztica and Anchorome are from Abeir? If we look at their magics, their magics would seem to fit what we know of Abeir to a degree. It could easily be that there's a portal crossover somewhere in the underdark. There might be whole human communities living in the underdark on Abeir much like has been mentioned for Mystara and the Olman people. For that matter, the whole continent that TSR named as Anchorome itself may be a transplant from Abeir to Toril. I have noted several times that the surface of Anchorome looks like a place that went through some mass devastation. This could easily have come from primordials and dragons fighting, resulting possibly in the inhabitants having to flee below the surface.
But main reason I mentioned this is "what if on Abeir several largish communities of the humans are still in the Abeiran underdark?" Also, if they ARE... how might they have adapted? I'm picturing caverns lit by the shed light of a primordials eye, etc....
For that matter... what if some of the gods who have fallen/disappeared in Maztica (i.e. Kukul and Maztica) were some of the ones that got trapped in Abeir. To note, my bet is that the original Maztican pantheon was worshipped by reptile folk and not humans (or at least not JUST humans).... but IN CANON humans came along later and discovered their idols and started worshipping them again. Why mention this? Well, perhaps one of the things that the Torilian gods had to do was go and FIND the bodies of these fallen gods to create manifestations for themselves. Just as a for instance... Ubtao, who is Qotal... might he have spent his time in Abeir partly finding the body of his father Kukul?
On your note for steelsky only appearing above areas with portions of Arambar's body... I hadn't put that two and two together, but there WAS a fist of Arambar in Laerakond. This absolutely fits and makes for a good reason that perhaps the sky above Zakhara may not have been Steelsky, IF Zakhara did indeed come from Abeir. I will also note that though Zakhara is multiracial, it lacks dragonborn as well (now granted this is because those rules didn't exist... but let's go with that portion of the world just didn't have dragonborn OR dragons).
So, perhaps Zakhara was filled with "warlocks who called themselves Sha'irs and followed powerful primordials beings that were of geniekind". Then at some point, that land transferred to Toril in a mass transit. I personally like it if this were during the fall of Mystryl for some reason, but I'm not tied to that. It would denote that many of these changes are caused during the death of "the hidden one".
To note, if these powerful primordial beings of geniekind ran the dragons out of "Zakhara" that would absolutely fit with the idea of the War of Fang and Talon where the primordials and dragons had a falling out. Zakhara may have actually become a place where the "primordials" didn't go to sleep and stood as a bastion of protection from the encroachment of dragonkind. This might be where the humans of Abeir got enough protection from dragonkind to actually grow, and it could also explain why all the magics of Zakhara are not WIZARD magics (or as Zakharans call them the Ajami)... they are elementalists. Wizards may be able to cast a spell that essentially WORKS the same, such as fireball, but the actual casting and learning of the spell is entirely different than an elementalist casting the same spell.
Just to throw out here as well, I am absolutely not against other portions of the realms being transferred regions of Abeir. For instance, Kara-Tur is said to not have an astral connection, but rather a connection to the spirit world. It's got "wizards" who also have a strange connection to the elements (wu-jen) and also its priests have a strange connection to the elements (shugenja) AND it has some unusual "gods" and lots of place spirits, evil spirits, dragon spirits etc... If Anchorome has ties to the spirit world and so does Kara-Tur then perhaps the idea that Abeir is a world with ties to the spirit world RATHER THAN faerie has a lot more merit. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2023 : 15:20:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Also, Wooly, in reference to your question then.... Why did Ao leave primordials in Toril? He definitely did. We obviously don't have the "truth". We have what sages have figured out. What sages have figured out may be close to the truth (or far from it), but its painted with broad strokes.
The issue, to me, isn't where the primordials were -- the issue is that both primordials and gods were all on the one world that exists, and then Ao created a second world to separate them. This new world had neither gods nor primordials, but it was created for the primordials, so that's where they ended up. My issue is that gods were somehow stuck on a world where they had never been before and where there was no reason for them to be.
It'd be like if a husband and wife divorced, the husband moves out and gets his own place -- and then one of his former in-laws moves in with him.
(Honestly, the whole thing illustrates part of why I hate that whole retcon: it presents so many new problems, and the same thing could have been accomplished in other ways, without a retcon and without creating other issues)
The problem as I see it Wooly, if you look at it from an outsider view for a minute, is that you want to give Ao credit for amazing foresight and capability. I don't. I want what he did to be messy... AMAZING, but messy... The sages think he was thorough. The "truth" is probably more like he went "Oh Sh*t... they're coming for me... I have this other world I was prepping to copy from this one.... send them there".
Then the idea I have is that the "spellplague" was his way of sending "soldiers"... in mortal and godly form.... in to try and recover this world that he lost control over. He may have periodically been transferring lands back and forth, and this is just the main time Faerunians have been organized enough to make actual head or tails of what just occurred because it was near enough to them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2023 : 15:43:51
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quote:
Originally posted by dead
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
...So, what if Zakhara came from Abeir in the past and their people didn't really realize what happened because it was a large enough transfer of land. It might have happened when Mystryl died or even as far back as the elven sundering OR something else like when the genies came to Calimshan.
The FR wiki says in -7800 DR, the djinn arrived, along with their human and halfling slaves from Zakhara, in the area around where Calimport would later stand. There they founded the Calim Empire.
I dont know why these djinn left Zakhara, though. Were they just colonising? Or some other reason.
But if you take that date (-7800 DR) then Zakhara has been around since then at least.
Good, I was hoping someone would find that date. So, this is right around the start of the Imaskari empire.... so we don't have a lot of "human" history yet when this happens. In fact, Empires of the Shining Sea describes the human populations around this time as club wielding or stone axe wielding beings worried about enslavement by elves, dwarves, etc...
So, let's keep along with this idea that Zakhara WAS in Abeir. Do we have ANYTHING that says when they came to what becomes "Calimshan" that they actually came from Zakhara in TORIL. I would almost guarantee not, since I think I'm one of the first to propose this idea that Zakhara was in Abeir, and the concept of Abeir didn't exist until 4e. So perhaps the followers of Calim came here unintentionally. Then a thousand years later, the followers of Memnon, who had maybe come to inhabit Calim's lands after he left, ALSO suffered a transfer. Like what happened with Akanul and Tymanther, perhaps they were THRUST into this world for some reason and they both came from Zakhara AND came from Abeir because Zakhara was still in Abeir.
Just another note... we "know" that Talos is NOW Bhaelros... but look at the pictures we have of Bhaelros. A powerful "primordial genie" like being who has a dragon on a chain. Ring bells?
So, perhaps Calim, Memnon, Bhaelros... and possibly some other powerful entities in Calimshan's history.... perhaps they were primordials who ended up coming to Toril. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 15 Jun 2023 15:51:15 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2023 : 18:15:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Also, Wooly, in reference to your question then.... Why did Ao leave primordials in Toril? He definitely did. We obviously don't have the "truth". We have what sages have figured out. What sages have figured out may be close to the truth (or far from it), but its painted with broad strokes.
The issue, to me, isn't where the primordials were -- the issue is that both primordials and gods were all on the one world that exists, and then Ao created a second world to separate them. This new world had neither gods nor primordials, but it was created for the primordials, so that's where they ended up. My issue is that gods were somehow stuck on a world where they had never been before and where there was no reason for them to be.
It'd be like if a husband and wife divorced, the husband moves out and gets his own place -- and then one of his former in-laws moves in with him.
(Honestly, the whole thing illustrates part of why I hate that whole retcon: it presents so many new problems, and the same thing could have been accomplished in other ways, without a retcon and without creating other issues)
If the twinning of the world happened in a similar fashion than the separation of the world during the Second Sundering, then maybe the gods and primordials didn't had a say in which world they wanted to stay. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2023 : 19:43:50
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, WHAT IF the humans of Maztica and Anchorome are from Abeir?
I don't know if I like this idea. It makes sense and it has some merit, but I think that connecting everything makes the setting feel smaller and a bit cramped...
Maybe we could go for the middle ground? Some of these ancient humans were natives of Maztica, and others immigrants from Abeir, but this happened so long ago that it is impossible to know which is which, and the bloodlines have mixed so much that perhaps the difference is irrelevant at this point.
Anyways, the idea of humans living in the underground/Underdark makes sense, because we know dragonborn do live in the underground in Laerakond (see Relmaur). So, it isn't far-fetched to think that other races also do it, hiding from dragons and primordials, or something like that.
As for Anchorome, I don't know much about it, to be honest. I just know that Ed said Anchorome is a chain of islands, not a continent, 
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For that matter... what if some of the gods who have fallen/disappeared in Maztica (i.e. Kukul and Maztica) were some of the ones that got trapped in Abeir.
I don't think so. The Tearfall and the twinning of the worlds happened in a time humanity was still caveman. I don't think current humans remember the names of these old gods who went missing... Their names maybe only registered in old ruins current humans fear to go and research, and in obscure tales only a few know, preserved, and maybe twisted, by oral tradition... I'm thinking in gods like Blipdoolpoolp and the like, not Maztica and Kukul. They are remembered by everyone and their grandmother in Maztica.
Or perhaps your theory is right, and the Maztican pantheon was something older than humanity and somehow rediscovered by the Mazticans...
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On your note for steelsky only appearing above areas with portions of Arambar's body... I hadn't put that two and two together, but there WAS a fist of Arambar in Laerakond.
Well, we know the Steelsky is everywhere in Abeir, but it is a consequence of the energy that emanates from Arambar's corpse (also called arambar). So, if there is no part of Arambar's corpse in a displaced land, I think the energy will dissipate over time, and the Steelsky would disappear, as well.
As for the fist, it is (or was) located in a subterranean mine in Ithimir Isle, near Akanūl. And we know Akanūl is a weird place that doesn't fit with the environment of its neighbouring lands. We don't know what remains of Arambar's corpse are in Laerakond, but we know there are, as his soul is tied to a place named Wandering Stones, in Skelkor. We know there is a place named Arambar's Gulch in Abeir, that is not on Laerakond (according to Erin Evans), and perhaps that is were the bulk of Arambar's corpse is located.
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Just to throw out here as well, I am absolutely not against other portions of the realms being transferred regions of Abeir. For instance, Kara-Tur...
Again, I don't know if making everything so related is a good idea.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 15 Jun 2023 19:46:52 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2023 : 19:54:46
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The problem as I see it Wooly, if you look at it from an outsider view for a minute, is that you want to give Ao credit for amazing foresight and capability. I don't. I want what he did to be messy... AMAZING, but messy... The sages think he was thorough. The "truth" is probably more like he went "Oh Sh*t... they're coming for me... I have this other world I was prepping to copy from this one.... send them there".
Yeah, I think the same. We saw how Ao dealt with the gods in the Avatar Crisis series. He basically stomped the gods, like playing with ragdolls. But, if we go by the Sarrukh records, he had to make a deal with Asgorath. Meaning, Asgorath was in a level of power were Ao could not stop her by force and had to resort to negotiate with her. Which means, Asgorath may also beat the shit out of Ao if she wanted to. So, I like to think Ao was soiling his pants out of fear and doing things hasty, just to save his skin. And doing things hasty and out of fear means not being so thorough and careful. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2023 : 00:01:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The problem as I see it Wooly, if you look at it from an outsider view for a minute, is that you want to give Ao credit for amazing foresight and capability. I don't. I want what he did to be messy... AMAZING, but messy... The sages think he was thorough. The "truth" is probably more like he went "Oh Sh*t... they're coming for me... I have this other world I was prepping to copy from this one.... send them there".
Yeah, I think the same. We saw how Ao dealt with the gods in the Avatar Crisis series. He basically stomped the gods, like playing with ragdolls. But, if we go by the Sarrukh records, he had to make a deal with Asgorath. Meaning, Asgorath was in a level of power were Ao could not stop her by force and had to resort to negotiate with her. Which means, Asgorath may also beat the shit out of Ao if she wanted to. So, I like to think Ao was soiling his pants out of fear and doing things hasty, just to save his skin. And doing things hasty and out of fear means not being so thorough and careful.
This all makes me dislike the whole thing even more. Now we've got the guy who casually pushes around and maims gods (and builds new worlds on a whim) looking either weak or incompetent. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2023 : 08:22:32
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
What if Ao is Asgorath?
Was he having an identity crisis, then? Wanting to destroy the world but at the same time wanting to preserve it? It would explain why (if) he did twinned the worlds so hastily and carelessly. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2023 : 08:25:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
This all makes me dislike the whole thing even more. Now we've got the guy who casually pushes around and maims gods (and builds new worlds on a whim) looking either weak or incompetent.
I don't see it that way. I see it like the guy who can beat the common gods facing a god who is said to predate the common gods and is credited with the creation of the whole multiverse. He just met his match. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Cyrano
Acolyte
United Kingdom
25 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2023 : 14:22:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The problem as I see it Wooly, if you look at it from an outsider view for a minute, is that you want to give Ao credit for amazing foresight and capability. I don't. I want what he did to be messy... AMAZING, but messy... The sages think he was thorough. The "truth" is probably more like he went "Oh Sh*t... they're coming for me... I have this other world I was prepping to copy from this one.... send them there".
Yeah, I think the same. We saw how Ao dealt with the gods in the Avatar Crisis series. He basically stomped the gods, like playing with ragdolls. But, if we go by the Sarrukh records, he had to make a deal with Asgorath. Meaning, Asgorath was in a level of power were Ao could not stop her by force and had to resort to negotiate with her. Which means, Asgorath may also beat the shit out of Ao if she wanted to. So, I like to think Ao was soiling his pants out of fear and doing things hasty, just to save his skin. And doing things hasty and out of fear means not being so thorough and careful.
This all makes me dislike the whole thing even more. Now we've got the guy who casually pushes around and maims gods (and builds new worlds on a whim) looking either weak or incompetent.
It seems like, from books going back to the 90s, Asgorath was something more on a level with Ao if not more powerful.
D&D is a setting that's always been comfortable with 'power levels' among gods. With demi, minor and major gods, and Ao so far beyond them he is to them as they are to mortals.
I don't see why it's bad to have someone else on that level presenting a challenge to a character that's normally completely secure. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2023 : 19:40:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrano
It seems like, from books going back to the 90s, Asgorath was something more on a level with Ao if not more powerful.
D&D is a setting that's always been comfortable with 'power levels' among gods. With demi, minor and major gods, and Ao so far beyond them he is to them as they are to mortals.
I don't see why it's bad to have someone else on that level presenting a challenge to a character that's normally completely secure.
Because Ao is the Overgod of Realmspace. No one should be able to challenge him. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2023 : 20:36:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, WHAT IF the humans of Maztica and Anchorome are from Abeir?
I don't know if I like this idea. It makes sense and it has some merit, but I think that connecting everything makes the setting feel smaller and a bit cramped...
Maybe we could go for the middle ground? Some of these ancient humans were natives of Maztica, and others immigrants from Abeir, but this happened so long ago that it is impossible to know which is which, and the bloodlines have mixed so much that perhaps the difference is irrelevant at this point.
Anyways, the idea of humans living in the underground/Underdark makes sense, because we know dragonborn do live in the underground in Laerakond (see Relmaur). So, it isn't far-fetched to think that other races also do it, hiding from dragons and primordials, or something like that.
As for Anchorome, I don't know much about it, to be honest. I just know that Ed said Anchorome is a chain of islands, not a continent,
quote:
For that matter... what if some of the gods who have fallen/disappeared in Maztica (i.e. Kukul and Maztica) were some of the ones that got trapped in Abeir.
I don't think so. The Tearfall and the twinning of the worlds happened in a time humanity was still caveman. I don't think current humans remember the names of these old gods who went missing... Their names maybe only registered in old ruins current humans fear to go and research, and in obscure tales only a few know, preserved, and maybe twisted, by oral tradition... I'm thinking in gods like Blipdoolpoolp and the like, not Maztica and Kukul. They are remembered by everyone and their grandmother in Maztica.
Or perhaps your theory is right, and the Maztican pantheon was something older than humanity and somehow rediscovered by the Mazticans...
quote:
On your note for steelsky only appearing above areas with portions of Arambar's body... I hadn't put that two and two together, but there WAS a fist of Arambar in Laerakond.
Well, we know the Steelsky is everywhere in Abeir, but it is a consequence of the energy that emanates from Arambar's corpse (also called arambar). So, if there is no part of Arambar's corpse in a displaced land, I think the energy will dissipate over time, and the Steelsky would disappear, as well.
As for the fist, it is (or was) located in a subterranean mine in Ithimir Isle, near Akanūl. And we know Akanūl is a weird place that doesn't fit with the environment of its neighbouring lands. We don't know what remains of Arambar's corpse are in Laerakond, but we know there are, as his soul is tied to a place named Wandering Stones, in Skelkor. We know there is a place named Arambar's Gulch in Abeir, that is not on Laerakond (according to Erin Evans), and perhaps that is were the bulk of Arambar's corpse is located.
quote:
Just to throw out here as well, I am absolutely not against other portions of the realms being transferred regions of Abeir. For instance, Kara-Tur...
Again, I don't know if making everything so related is a good idea.
Definitely a middle ground achievable. To note, the "Mazticans" are the people that "rediscovered the worship of Zaltec and the other gods", and they came from beneath the earth. That's canon if you dig into the history of Maztica. There was another group of humans (the Payit) who were very enlightened that worshipped Qotal (i.e. Ubtao), but they had fallen on hard times after a disease spread throughout their culture. Also canon. There was also ANOTHER group of humans who are referred to as "The Dog People" by Faerunians... to note, I get where that's pretty damn offensive, and Seethyr came up with his own name for them and I adopted it as well (the Azitilan). There was another group of humans that ALSO came from the underdark, but the came to central eastern Anchorome (the Azupozi). The "Huacli" are a mixed breed of Mazticans with "dog people" that live in the mountains. There was another group of humans that were the Nahopaca in central eastern Anchorome, who were kind of like bandits. There was another group of humans There was another group of humans in Lopango's jungles called "The Green Folk" by Faerunians (the Kolans are a subrace of green folk and Maztican breeding). Seethyr created another group from Lopango as well that he refers to as the Naticans. So, it can be a little unclear I get it when I say "Maztican" because I usually mean specifically the ones that came from the underdark and found the statue of Zaltec and then started conquering/interbreeding with folks.
On Anchorome as well... we have "Ed says its a collection of islands" and we have TSR documenting it as a large continent in their Maztica products. To that my answer is simple.... yet again Faerunian "sages" got it wrong. They showed up there... and just like the Europeans referring to America as "the Indies" and thinking it was Asia... they called it the name they knew for "that land west of Faerun". THIS is why I also say "what if Anchorome TRANSFERRED here from Abeir". We have a situation that literally can't happen in our world, and it confused the heck out of the "sages that know". In this situation, the people OF Anchorome probably have another name for their land... but we don't know it (kind of like "Returned Abeir" and Laerakond). By the way, I put a linkage between "Laerakond" and "Maztica" personally because they are roughly the same general shape. Just like there was a "less magical" version of Evermeet, I wonder if Maztica wasn't somehow a "less magical" Laerakond that was created by the SOMETHING.
I personally like blaming the elves for this Anchorome issue, and I'd like there to be some malfunctioning portal(s) near Evermeet in the ocean that can transfer you to a place where the "isles of Anchorome" are accessible currently. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2023 : 01:47:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Because Ao is the Overgod of Realmspace. No one should be able to challenge him.
Overgod of Realmspace vs the Creator of the Multiverse (per Monster Mythology, 2e book)... You can put two plus two.
It was just after 3e that they nerfed Io/Asgorath, following some logic that I fail to yet understand.
"Oh, Io, this god is worshiped by all dragons in all the worlds of the multiverse, let's say he is an intermediate power. Now, Task, only worshiped by a few dragons of Faerūn, a continent of a single world; he should be a greater deity!" |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2023 : 02:00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
"The Dog People" by Faerunians...
The first time I read about them, I though they were actual dog people. Wasted potential.
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to note, I get where that's pretty damn offensive,
Just one of the reasons why I don't like TSR's take on the history of Precolumbian latinamerica but with elves.
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On Anchorome as well... we have "Ed says its a collection of islands" and we have TSR documenting it as a large continent in their Maztica products.
I've read the 2e boxed set, and they said there that Anchorome was a chain of islands. I guess they contradicted themselves later in their line of products. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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dead
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2023 : 12:06:31
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For me, the only thing going against saying Zakharans or Kara-Turians came from Abeir is the fact that Toril is an Earth-like analogue; ie. it has similar cultures to Earth (and in similar geographical positions). And, if you look at other TSR settings that are Earth-like analogues (to greater or lesser degree), like Oerth, Mystara and Krynn, then, they too, have areas of their worlds where there are Arabic and Asian-like cultures. So, if you play in a multiversal game where world-hopping is possible (via Planescape or Spelljammer) it might not make sense for these Earth-like cultures to pop up naturally on all of these worlds except for Toril where, say, the Zakharans or Kara-Turians (or both!), come from Abeir instead.
Also, I like to think there is a "Mythic Earth" out there to explain where all the Earth deities come from that are in the Planescape setting (eg. Egyptian pantheon, Greek pantheon, Norse pantheon, etc.). In my game this world is Gygax's Aerth setting.
But if you dont play a multiversal game, then Zakharas genie and elemental theme is a good link to Abeir. |
Edited by - dead on 17 Jun 2023 12:50:25 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2023 : 01:40:41
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| Well, the Elemental theme is canon. The lore we have on Abeir tell us that the world is home to huge god-like elemental beings known as Primordials, and the place is also known to have native genasi inhabitants (while in other settings they came from somewhere else). Add dragons to this, and the place is a very elemental themed one. Though, I do agree that is not necessarily Arabian Nights themed either... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2023 : 14:46:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The problem as I see it Wooly, if you look at it from an outsider view for a minute, is that you want to give Ao credit for amazing foresight and capability. I don't. I want what he did to be messy... AMAZING, but messy... The sages think he was thorough. The "truth" is probably more like he went "Oh Sh*t... they're coming for me... I have this other world I was prepping to copy from this one.... send them there".
Yeah, I think the same. We saw how Ao dealt with the gods in the Avatar Crisis series. He basically stomped the gods, like playing with ragdolls. But, if we go by the Sarrukh records, he had to make a deal with Asgorath. Meaning, Asgorath was in a level of power were Ao could not stop her by force and had to resort to negotiate with her. Which means, Asgorath may also beat the shit out of Ao if she wanted to. So, I like to think Ao was soiling his pants out of fear and doing things hasty, just to save his skin. And doing things hasty and out of fear means not being so thorough and careful.
Just to throw out here too... during the avatar crisis he stomped the gods. Who says he can do that ALL THE TIME.... I mean, we've seen many situations where a wizard can throw on numerous buffs, swap in some magic items for protection, and just for a very short term manhandle a whole party. Why not assume that Ao basically set up the dominoes so that he was able to do what he did? Then he grandiosly waded in and threatened and cajoled the gods, who were like "WTF"... and they were cowed. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2023 : 14:55:41
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
What if Ao is Asgorath?
This I've asked as well.... Asgorath is also known by some as Io.... so what if Asgorath was SPLIT into Ao and Io. We even have this story as part of it all that two beings rose from the blood of Asgorath's death. We also have a "splitting of worlds" at that moment. I truly don't think we REALLY understand what happened here, and I truly don't think we really understand what Ao is, what their power level is, or even truly what exactly makes the difference between primordials/dawn titans and gods/estelar.
I would almost wonder if the gods/estelar ("stellar powers") link their power back to the plane of radiance which leaks into realmspace via the portals that are the stars... and primordials/dawn titans link their power source back to the elemental planes. That would kind of fit with Selune and Shar being "estelar". It might even be something where some primordials betrayed their fellows in the creation of the sun by opening portals to the plane of fire on a planet..... but I'm not totally sold on that idea even though I present it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2023 : 15:31:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
"The Dog People" by Faerunians...
The first time I read about them, I though they were actual dog people. Wasted potential.
quote:
to note, I get where that's pretty damn offensive,
Just one of the reasons why I don't like TSR's take on the history of Precolumbian latinamerica but with elves.
quote:
On Anchorome as well... we have "Ed says its a collection of islands" and we have TSR documenting it as a large continent in their Maztica products.
I've read the 2e boxed set, and they said there that Anchorome was a chain of islands. I guess they contradicted themselves later in their line of products.
Yep, for instance, in Gold and Glory, where it talks about Fort Flame it basically says that there ARE islands of Anchorome, but it also references that the Flaming Fist proceeded north and established Fort Flame on Anchorome. Now to be clear, this would be "faerunians" calling it Anchorome... it doesn't mean that it IS that.
That product specifically shows a snippet of a map. It shows the placement of Fort Flame. It shows Kultaka. Its shows a ruined fort. It also shows clearly the name Anchorome written North/South in a way that would seem to mean that the northern area above Maztica is being referred to as Anchorome.
The founder of Baldur's Gate (home to the Fist) was a sea captain called Balduran. Long ago, he sailed west past Evermeet, to the fabled islands of Anchorome, returning with great wealth that was used to build the wall around what became Baldur's Gate.
<snip ahead>
The Anchorome expedition was not as successful, however. This group consisted of four leaders (Scar, Bellan, Desedrak, and Yulimtul) and more than 500 mercenaries.
<snip ahead>
The rest of the group (roughly 340 people and 150 horses) took 15 ships up the coast from Maztica to explore the coast of Anchorome.
<snip ahead>
The Flaming Fist's main base is Baldur's Gate, but the company has established secondary bases in Chult and Anchorome,
So, I take this to mean that ED SAYS that Anchorome is a grouping of islands... but FAERUNIAN SAGES SAY that Anchorome is a collection of islands AND the area north of Maztica. It CAN be interesting if there's an area of islands that are say east of "Faerunian Anchorome" that suffer from some kind of effects of the elven sundering and sporadically swap between Toril and Abeir and even other worlds. This would be a good way to bring in the campaign world of Jakandor to the realms if one wanted to, as it would very much be able to fit, especially with the concepts of the Northmen and the "Knorrman" people of Jakandor... and the "Knorrman" people can also work very well with the Metahel people shown in City of Gold as well. To note, I would also buy putting islands off of the WEST coast of "Faerunian Anchorome" as well... and in fact that makes a great place for them given that the maps show it fairly empty.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 18 Jun 2023 15:35:09 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2023 : 20:49:55
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I just realized that we were forgetting something: swordmages (the 4e equivalent to the Eldritch Knights of 5e). They did exist on Abeir way before the Spellplague exchanged lands (see the Anarch of Shyr paragon path in the FRPG, p.47).
So, there we have a canon example of arcane magic used on Abeir. And it is a discipline different to that of the wizards. The closer a Torilian wizard has is the bladesinger, and that one is elf-only. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Is anyone running an Abeir campaign?
