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zyzzyva
Acolyte
USA
21 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Mar 2023 : 18:54:55
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I'm running a campaign focused on a conflict that turns into a proxy war of the Blood War, and was wondering if there's examples of other similar conflicts having occurred in the Realms.
So far the only example I've found is the First Tymanther-Unther War, are there any other wars that are either explicitly stated or can be read as having been proxy wars?
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2023 : 15:24:52
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https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Blood_War
The wiki offers a summary of Blood War events in the Realms. Mostly centering around 4E-lore Asmodeus, or rather, enemies who opposed him. There's a list of published sourcebooks, adventures, novels, etc. I admit I don't know much about anything happening in the Blood War beyond 2E Planescape lore and 2E/3E Realms lore.
But for the most part, the Blood War is fought across the Outer Planes, primarily the Lower Planes, and it doesn't spread often to the Primes. It can (usually) only reach a Prime (a world like Toril) if fiends and archfiends can establish a strong presence. Indeed, Primes which become battlegrounds in the Blood War tend to become destroyed and uninhabitable by anything other than their Lower Planar conquerors. Such worlds tend to get absorbed into the Lower Planes.
The Realms (Toril) is not one of these destroyed worlds. The history of the Realms is filled with invasions and armies of demons, devils, and the like ... but they usually serve as instruments for those who summoned them, not as forces fighting a greater war. Sometimes they find a way (like Ascalhorn/Hellgate Keep) to bring themselves to the Realms, but are invariably interested only in establishing their own private power base rather than an outpost in a greater war. Either way, they usually don't have world-threatening numbers and they usually don't last long against the combined might of Toril's native races allying in a war to contain and/or to exterminate them. Which essentially means that demons, devils, and other dark soldiers which fight in the Blood War have not really brought the Blood War with them. The Realms is place to loot and pillage and corrupt and torment, it is not a place to skirmish. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Mar 2023 15:37:07 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2023 : 16:40:46
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The Forgotten Realms has some good tie-ins already existing for the Blood War:
* Descent into Avernus: Zauriel and Gargauth are plotting against one another with the backdrop of pulling a city into the Nine Hells. All of this is influenced by the Blood War and you could easily have a Demon show up to help push events one way or the other. I recommend Gra'azt because he's the most cunning and conniving of them or someone far less impressive.
* Gargauth: Wiping out the Knights of the Shield and destroying the Lord of the Tenth is something that could very well be something demons encourage.
* Out of the Abyss: Rather than Lolth being the Mastermind behind this, reveal that Asmodeus is actually playing everyone like a fiddle and Vizeran DeVir is his master. It's all designed to get the Archdemons out of play long enough for a massive invasion of their levels of the Abyss. Maybe Asmodeus does a deal that somehow gets all of the Succubi to switch to the Nine Hells.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2023 : 18:18:19
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If you want to look into the past... not necessarily the "blood war"... but demon against demon... the rise and fall of Narfell could very well be seen to be different demons using humanity to grow their power in the prime and then turn against one another. The creation of the adamantine binding that pulled portions of the Hidden Layer of the Abyss INTO Toril and somewhat bound Eltab here could be seen as such. Then in relation to that, there's Narathmault (which became Dun-Tharos of Narfell), which seems to be some kind of prison that contains demons... but also hinted at containing devils in the novel "Lady of Poison" surrounding the paladin of Lurue facing off against the rotting man and the Talontar Blightlords in Rawlinswood.
There is also a pit in the ruined cliffside city of Peleverai where Gargauth had been imprisoned. He had a lot of machinations with the early Cult of the Dragon as a Banite, and one of their number (Tuelhalva Drakewings) helped to free him. Gargauth had also either directly or indirectly imprisoned Astaroth in the wells of darkness, and I've always thought that the pit in Peleverai would make a better link to the wells of darkness than a pit going to the nine hells. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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zyzzyva
Acolyte
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2023 : 18:43:46
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
If you want to look into the past... not necessarily the "blood war"... but demon against demon... the rise and fall of Narfell could very well be seen to be different demons using humanity to grow their power in the prime and then turn against one another. The creation of the adamantine binding that pulled portions of the Hidden Layer of the Abyss INTO Toril and somewhat bound Eltab here could be seen as such. Then in relation to that, there's Narathmault (which became Dun-Tharos of Narfell), which seems to be some kind of prison that contains demons... but also hinted at containing devils in the novel "Lady of Poison" surrounding the paladin of Lurue facing off against the rotting man and the Talontar Blightlords in Rawlinswood.
That actually dovetails quite well with what I have planned; campaign is in the Unapproachable East and Eltab and the Rotting Man are potential big bads. May take a more detailed look at Narfell's wars of expansion then (with the exception of Raumathar, since they seemed pretty decisively anti-fiend.) |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2023 : 20:03:19
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I did an adaptation of SIEGE OF DRAGONSPEAR in my games with the premise being Gargauth wanted to suck Toril into the Nine Hells as a whole by opening Hellgate Keep to his domain and blah blah blah Macguffin.
The player characters ended up killing Gargauth with the unwitting help of Asmodeus who wanted to end the Blood War for the time being. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 30 Mar 2023 20:03:35 |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2023 : 07:14:57
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| Not explicitly a Blood War event, but the mages of Ascalhorn first invited devils / baatezu to Ascalhorn, and when they were on the verge of being overwhelmed, they brought in demons / tanar'ri to fight them. That baatezu vs. tanar'ri fight could be framed as a Blood War skirmish. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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zyzzyva
Acolyte
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2023 : 16:16:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I did an adaptation of SIEGE OF DRAGONSPEAR in my games with the premise being Gargauth wanted to suck Toril into the Nine Hells as a whole by opening Hellgate Keep to his domain and blah blah blah Macguffin.
The player characters ended up killing Gargauth with the unwitting help of Asmodeus who wanted to end the Blood War for the time being.
Will definitely look more into Gargauth, since he's popped up multiple times in this thread. It seems, as a banished archdevil, he'd be quite a good candidate for opening up smaller fronts in fiendish conflicts outside the Blood War proper without 'official' sanction from Asmodeus. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2023 : 17:30:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Barring Vecna wrecking the Multiverse, nothing can ever stop the Blood War. It is eternal and infinite.
it's paused only once, during the illithid empire |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2023 : 19:58:23
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The concept is interesting, but Realms have very limited place for it.
The main problem is that Realms is a playground for power struggles between many deities. They all can spot and subsequently crush or subsume other large scale power games, and when the fiends are involved, usually everyone is interested sooner rather than later.
But then, it's only general and "modern" state of affairs. There are less civilized areas. Though they are less important, too. If we consider Arcane Age or Imaskari era, power balance was different.
As fiendish activity goes:
- the whole mess around Ravensgate and Seros, infiltration of Impiltur.
- Ascalhiorn and Hellgate Keep.
- ruined Myth Drannor.
- whatever it was in Vaasa/Damara. Maybe.
But a proxy war in these contexts could only be rudimentary. That is, without actual long-term power base or long-term pawns involved.
Some fiend detects activity of its enemies somewhere nearby, sends someone to investigate (perhaps disposable adventurers), then spreads rumours about this in such a way that unfriendly attention of the locals (including priesthood) would be directed over there. Two birds, one stone.
This could happen a lot, for all we know. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 05 Apr 2023 20:02:56 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2023 : 01:22:48
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quote:
Originally posted by zyzzyva
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I did an adaptation of SIEGE OF DRAGONSPEAR in my games with the premise being Gargauth wanted to suck Toril into the Nine Hells as a whole by opening Hellgate Keep to his domain and blah blah blah Macguffin.
The player characters ended up killing Gargauth with the unwitting help of Asmodeus who wanted to end the Blood War for the time being.
Will definitely look more into Gargauth, since he's popped up multiple times in this thread. It seems, as a banished archdevil, he'd be quite a good candidate for opening up smaller fronts in fiendish conflicts outside the Blood War proper without 'official' sanction from Asmodeus.
Yes, I was a bit nonplussed when they basically replaced Gargauth for Asmodeus in 4e. Gargauth is so much more of a "bit player", so his followers I picture as much more wary, much more devious, and much harder to find and root out. In short, I see Gargauth and Leira and Mask's followers deliberately working behind the scenes in a lot of environments and sometimes indirectly working against one another without even realizing the activities of one another. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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zyzzyva
Acolyte
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2023 : 23:24:02
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
The concept is interesting, but Realms have very limited place for it.
The main problem is that Realms is a playground for power struggles between many deities. They all can spot and subsequently crush or subsume other large scale power games, and when the fiends are involved, usually everyone is interested sooner rather than later.
But then, it's only general and "modern" state of affairs. There are less civilized areas. Though they are less important, too. If we consider Arcane Age or Imaskari era, power balance was different.
Hmm, that makes a good bit of sense; it seems from the examples that major fiendish incursions tend to be large waves of demons that devastate surrounding areas without actually retaining much control over the surrounding area; closer to a natural disaster than anything else (presumably because most other power players have a vested interest in cleaning them up.)
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
But a proxy war in these contexts could only be rudimentary. That is, without actual long-term power base or long-term pawns involved.
Some fiend detects activity of its enemies somewhere nearby, sends someone to investigate (perhaps disposable adventurers), then spreads rumours about this in such a way that unfriendly attention of the locals (including priesthood) would be directed over there. Two birds, one stone.
This could happen a lot, for all we know.
This is very helpful, actually. Cards on the table, what I'm doing is heavily inspired by post-Vietnam proxy conflicts during the Cold War (specifically the Angolan civil wars), and at that point you're dealing with proxies of proxies who are actually doing most of the on the ground fighting. Given the above, it would make sense that devils (and demons with a nose for strategy) would want to keep their involvement in such a conflict at least nominally covert to avoid attracting undue scrutiny, and might limit their involvement to providing advisors, arms, and the like. |
Edited by - zyzzyva on 06 Apr 2023 23:25:03 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2023 : 14:51:24
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quote:
Originally posted by zyzzyva
Cards on the table, what I'm doing is heavily inspired by post-Vietnam proxy conflicts during the Cold War (specifically the Angolan civil wars), and at that point you're dealing with proxies of proxies who are actually doing most of the on the ground fighting. Given the above, it would make sense that devils (and demons with a nose for strategy) would want to keep their involvement in such a conflict at least nominally covert to avoid attracting undue scrutiny, and might limit their involvement to providing advisors, arms, and the like.
Definitely look into Impiltur, Narfell, Eltab, and Soneillon “Queen of Whispers”. Champions of Ruin is a good resource, as well as Lost Empires of Faerun. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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zyzzyva
Acolyte
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2023 : 05:08:59
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Definitely look into Impiltur, Narfell, Eltab, and Soneillon “Queen of Whispers”. Champions of Ruin is a good resource, as well as Lost Empires of Faerun.
Will do, thanks! I've looked a little into Eltab and the Citadel of Conjurers, but it'll be helpful to have something more comprehensive. |
Edited by - zyzzyva on 08 Apr 2023 05:11:00 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2023 : 11:45:23
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| As an aside, there's a free game named simply "PROXY". Looks like fun. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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zyzzyva
Acolyte
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2023 : 00:07:57
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
As an aside, there's a free game named simply "PROXY". Looks like fun.
This is exactly the sort of thing I've been looking for to mechanically run the backend of the campaign, already working on a custom Rashemen version of its map! |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2023 : 12:37:01
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quote:
Originally posted by zyzzyva
This is exactly the sort of thing I've been looking for to mechanically run the backend of the campaign, already working on a custom Rashemen version of its map!
There are many "turn-based strategy lite" systems for more general domain play or dynamic background. AFAIK:
Birthright domain rules (though too simple and based on Divine Right as major setting feature, so it’s easier to import some ideas from it than adapt), 13th Age, Reign, An Echo, Resounding (domain rules for Red Tide), Worlds Without Number/Stars Without Number faction rules (included in free versions).
Of course, this approach is very adaptable. You could decide what classes of entities are desirable and which traits / resources / stats should be included in the abstraction, and the rest grows from this.
The problem with using domain play rules in Realms is that most of the setting is too defined, interconnected and quirky to be large-scale-sandbox friendly. Considering higher tiers of the game are full of wizards, dragons and deities, and how they typically work.
Though of course there are places like Border Kingdoms or Zakhara. And in a different way, Amn and Sembia. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 11 Apr 2023 12:39:06 |
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Blood War Proxy Wars
