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LWhitehead1
Learned Scribe

115 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2023 :  04:41:42  Show Profile Send LWhitehead1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I know that in D&D 5th there is a level cap, well that's going to be a problem in the Netheril Empire they go up too level 45.

So I need to know can one go beyond officially in D&D 5th level 20?,


LW

Karthak
Seeker

55 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2023 :  05:29:51  Show Profile Send Karthak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The netherese went to level 45+ in 2e mechanics, it doesn't mean that you need 5e characters to go anywhere near that to achieve similar results, handwaving the spell slots per level for the official 5e version of the wizard so they get access to epic level spells at level 19 would give you the same effect without having to deal with characters of all classes going above level 20 in a system that isn't designed for that.

If a player wants that kind of power in 5e, there's a few decent attempts at making epic levels of official subclasses covering 21-30 or 21-40 as well as various 5e homebrews of epic magic systems. With the exception of access to 10th and 11th level spells which also aren't available in offical 5e materials.
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LWhitehead1
Learned Scribe

115 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2023 :  12:14:03  Show Profile Send LWhitehead1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So far officialy there is no plans for Epic levels it's for Arcanum Invictus Imperium the Arcanist are this world's first Human Magic users Elves are the truly the First will workers. But currently the Human Arcanists are the powerful Magic Users in Werra, in is Magic empire I was planning when a Arcanist reached level 20 they would be called Magus. The ruler of this empire should be level 50 that person would be the most powerful Magic User in Werra.

LW

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11493 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2023 :  18:16:04  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Karthak

The netherese went to level 45+ in 2e mechanics, it doesn't mean that you need 5e characters to go anywhere near that to achieve similar results, handwaving the spell slots per level for the official 5e version of the wizard so they get access to epic level spells at level 19 would give you the same effect without having to deal with characters of all classes going above level 20 in a system that isn't designed for that.

If a player wants that kind of power in 5e, there's a few decent attempts at making epic levels of official subclasses covering 21-30 or 21-40 as well as various 5e homebrews of epic magic systems. With the exception of access to 10th and 11th level spells which also aren't available in offical 5e materials.




Out of curiosity, since it seems you may have looked into such, any rulesets you can recommend? As part of my "United Tharchs of Toril" idea, I was wanting to create NPC's (99% of them being high level mages mind you) who were advanced beyond 20th level. I was doing it
more out of the fun of trying to play with rules. I was going under the assumption to that if you did this that there would be a lot of other realms personalities that are actually reworked to be beyond level 20. I actually started working on it and got a good bit in before loss of a coworker doubled my workload and brought it to a crashing halt.

I was looking at this ruleset on DM's guild, but I have a decent amount of addendums to that ruleset started.

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/173822/Epic-Characters

One of the biggest thing I saw was they were trying pretty hard to mirror the 3e epic rules for things like getting extra spells. I was also attempting to rework a lot of rules I had written back when 5e first came out, now that I have a better feel for it. That being said, I found this to be the best work I'd seen so far, but admittedly I only looked at maybe 3 other options.

Of course, then I also found out that a new revision to 5e would be coming out in a couple years, and I was wondering if they'd put in a ruleset that invalidates anything I might do, so I kind of quit looking as well.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 28 Feb 2023 18:29:40
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
920 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2023 :  19:07:32  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You don't really go beyond 20 in 5E, but you can continue to get "other rewards" (DMG 227-232), which effectively make you more powerful than level 20. As noted, there are a few resources on DMs Guild to go beyond that.
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LWhitehead1
Learned Scribe

115 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2023 :  19:31:33  Show Profile Send LWhitehead1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So I saw the Epic Characters book from DM Guild, so how do I pay and is the price in $US?. Also the name for my Arcanist Empire Arcanum Invictus Imperium I would like some help with the name I want to keep the Imperium at the end of it.

If level 30 it the highest I can get then what would level Ten be called then for my Arcanist?.


LW
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Karthak
Seeker

55 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2023 :  20:38:04  Show Profile Send Karthak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I quite like this product as it continues your subclass for another 20 levels, gives a lot of new feats and spells, I've looked at a few but this was the only one that felt properly epic and not just 10 more levels above 20
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/235460/epic-level-characters-level-2140

I'd also recommend this if you're playing around with epic characters and monsters
https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/8ibq5q/5e_epic_monster_updates_v13/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36656 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2023 :  22:32:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LWhitehead1

So I saw the Epic Characters book from DM Guild, so how do I pay and is the price in $US?.


US Dollars, yes. They have multiple payment options, including credit cards. I use PayPal, myself.

quote:
Originally posted by LWhitehead1

Also the name for my Arcanist Empire Arcanum Invictus Imperium I would like some help with the name I want to keep the Imperium at the end of it.


I'd go with Something Imperium, myself. Either tie the name to the country of origin, or maybe its most notable ruler.

quote:
Originally posted by LWhitehead1

If level 30 it the highest I can get then what would level Ten be called then for my Arcanist?.




Call them whatever works for you. There's nothing official in the game material, and really, you should only use game rules as a baseline, anyway. It's the story that matters most, not an arbitrary ruleset that's going to change at least once in the next 10 years, anyway.

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TBeholder
Great Reader

2315 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2023 :  03:26:21  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's not a serious problem for several reasons:
1: High-level campaigns need their rules. AD&D core did not have support for those levels either, so what?
2: There's no way for a campaign where PCs go THAT HIGH level to be sane anyway.
3: It's going to be far down the list of the problems with what appears to be an indecisively glued together hybrid of Diablo Edition and Shroom Edition.
(1)+(2)+(3): it would take either a deliberate effort or sheer madness to make the required expansion noticeably bad in its proper context.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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LWhitehead1
Learned Scribe

115 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2023 :  11:24:29  Show Profile Send LWhitehead1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well the Arcanum Invictus Imperium is inspired by Tevinter Imperium from Dragon Age and Netheril Empire from FR that's were I get the Epic levels from, this empire which once ruled over the Werra (btw how is that for name for the world), now I need a Magical ruled empire this is quite powerful despight the fact they are ruling over a continent then a world. There ones who caused the Cataclysm that split the original continent into the current Two or more all of history is devided between before the Cataclysm and after, BC and AC respectively.

LW
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Karthak
Seeker

55 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2023 :  20:07:23  Show Profile Send Karthak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you had a single empire that has just a thousand casters capable of 5th level spells and higher, they'd easily dominate other nations who just rely on martial strength as their main defence/offence, being able to teleport in and summon hordes of elementals in any location of your choosing kinda makes swords and bows laughable, assuming this Imperium has some geographical defenses and doesn't just leave their borders undefended, you don't really need Epic casters at that point.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7839 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2023 :  20:46:11  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

I know that in D&D 5th there is a level cap, well that's going to be a problem in the Netheril Empire they go up too level 45.

I don't know how 5E handles these details.

But in 2E - after the Time of Troubles had changed the world - it was understood that Ancient Netheril existed in the 1E era and played by 1E rules. Indeed, the Ancient Empires product which introduced and described Ancient Netheril as an official 2E product also introduced and described special retro-1E rules to play in the setting.

So I kind of don't understand the problem. If the people/magics/items were made under pre-5E rules then they follow those pre-5E rules. If they were made under 5E rules then they follow 5E rules.

[/Ayrik]
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LWhitehead1
Learned Scribe

115 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2023 :  12:38:26  Show Profile Send LWhitehead1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First off thanks for all the help so far with my postings on this forum, well Arcanum Invictus Imperium is a Magocracy, still flexable on the name of this reduced empire. These people are currently being made with 5E official rules so far hence why I need help with beyond levels 21 to 30 or 41 depending DM guild book I can get.


Well one of my problems is the price in Canadian which kills my purse, the first one suggested is quite costly.

This empire has the most mystical advanced objects, weapons, spells, and buildings. Like in Tevinter Imperium, They also created the first Human speech/writting it across between Greek and Latin it predates Common, as I understand it's modern speech.

LW
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36656 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2023 :  16:23:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LWhitehead1

First off thanks for all the help so far with my postings on this forum, well Arcanum Invictus Imperium is a Magocracy, still flexable on the name of this reduced empire. These people are currently being made with 5E official rules so far hence why I need help with beyond levels 21 to 30 or 41 depending DM guild book I can get.



Is it really necessary to do all that? There's no real need to stat up an NPC unless the PCs are going to interact with that person in a way that requires them to have stats. Like, you won't need any stats for Nameless Shopkeep #37 or Saucy Serving Wench #42 or Shady Cloaked Guy #9.

Even a ruling monarch, you might not need anything other than their Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma -- because if they're in a position of power, they should be able to just lift a finger and have a legion of high-level guardians leap to respond. So you'd need to know if the PCs could talk the ruler into something -- or vice versa -- but it wouldn't matter if he was a 1st level rogue or a 41st level wizard.

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LWhitehead1
Learned Scribe

115 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2023 :  21:02:51  Show Profile Send LWhitehead1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No but in Mekhane Imperium, (like the new name for Magocracy empire it's Greek.) It's from Arcana for magic, would prefer 41th level then 1st.

LW
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Karthak
Seeker

55 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2023 :  23:38:49  Show Profile Send Karthak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What's wrong with having the ruler just be a level 20 wizard with a lot of level 15 followers, it'd put your ruler as one of the best wizards in the world, and save you having to figure out how a level 41 wizard npc would work in 5e without being able to steamroll everything including archdevils and gods avatar's singlehandedly.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36656 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2023 :  02:20:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LWhitehead1

No but in Mekhane Imperium, (like the new name for Magocracy empire it's Greek.) It's from Arcana for magic, would prefer 41th level then 1st.

LW



You seem to be missing my point. I'm saying that if the PCs aren't going to fight the guy, it doesn't matter what his level is. You're sweating over a stat block that will never be used.

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LWhitehead1
Learned Scribe

115 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2023 :  09:35:17  Show Profile Send LWhitehead1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes but one of the reasons the Arcanists are feared and hated in another continents other then Vestr/Dyktika Western Continent is there power level they are after all the First Human magic users of Werra and the most powerful.

LW

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Karthak
Seeker

55 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2023 :  10:11:43  Show Profile Send Karthak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You could achieve the same effect by having every other nation not have many mages at all and only 1 or 2 high level mages per nation outside of this Imperium.
Then the ruler of the imperium might be able to cast 10th level spells while every other high level mage in the Imperium is only able to cast 7th or 8th at most, or he's got a ridiculous amount of spell slots compared to any other mage in his Imperium.

Mechanically speaking, give the ruler either the spell slots of a 3.5 wizard of equivalent level or give the ruler access to 10th level spells if he's a level 19th level wizard.
Either one would achieve your goal of setting up a powerful mage ruler and give you a good example of what a player character could possibly achieve without needing to try to make 5e play nice with levels above 20 for a single npc.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36656 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2023 :  11:10:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LWhitehead1

Yes but one of the reasons the Arcanists are feared and hated in another continents other then Vestr/Dyktika Western Continent is there power level they are after all the First Human magic users of Werra and the most powerful.

LW





That still doesn't require stat blocks for someone that will never be fought. All you have to do is surround him with a unit of 20th level bodyguards and say his true power level is unknown but he's more powerful than his guards. Maybe say something like to join his guard, a candidate has to survive battle with the ruler for one minute.

Boom, it's established that he's powerful, and you don't need a stat block.

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LWhitehead1
Learned Scribe

115 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2023 :  14:08:46  Show Profile Send LWhitehead1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But Capping at 20th level just defeats Paragon and Epic levels adventure, and Yes I know officially there is no levels beyond 20th even DM Guild can't help on that level.


BTW what do you think of the new name for Magocracy empire?,


LW
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36656 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2023 :  14:50:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You're again missing my point: You don't need stats if the guy is never going to be fought.

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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
920 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2023 :  15:30:24  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with Wooly. Having stat blocks for everything was a thing in 3E, but not 5E. That said, in 5E NPC stat blocks are monster stat blocks, so you have way more flexibility and with the current thinking of giving spellcasters slots per day per spell like monsters, rather than working them as PC spellcasters, even easier. Former epic spellcasters have been downgraded a bit too, for example take a look at Laeral or Manshoon's stat blocks in Waterdeep Dragon Heist (though note neither follows the new format of assigning spells per day and still gives them spellcasting as PCs).
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
793 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2023 :  16:54:24  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LWhitehead1

But Capping at 20th level just defeats Paragon and Epic levels adventure, and Yes I know officially there is no levels beyond 20th even DM Guild can't help on that level.


BTW what do you think of the new name for Magocracy empire?,


LW



I am fine with the empire name. Would you consider mythic options from Pathfinder 1e? I would also not apply PC rules to NPC's/monsters.
Here is a piggyback on Wooly's point about not statting beings the party won't fight. Suppose your PC's somehow (which really should never happen unless the DM allows it) force an encounter and decide they want a few extra XP and loot. You still do not necessarily have to stat the cresature involved.

Here is an example: The (epic level?) party encounters The Rabbit of Caer Bannog. Suppose the party charges the rabbit. Just have the rabbit automatically win initiative, automatically overwhelm the party with auotcrit vorpal bites that override all mortal magic, including wish spells. The rabbit have Plot Armor (Ex) so it has non-negatable immunity to any and all attacks. To survive the encounter, one character must shout "RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!" and then run away. It works best if said character is a warrior of, say, Helm or Tempus.
My two coppers.

EDIT: Yes, there would be the obligatory Tim the Enchanter NPC who yells, "Look at the bones!!" while pointing at the clearly visible bones. But more importantly, you as DM are under no obligation to expose any powerful (story-wise, not necessarily high stats) NPC to PC aggression.

Edited by - Delnyn on 04 Mar 2023 00:53:00
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4376 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2023 :  11:04:56  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LWhitehead1

I know that in D&D 5th there is a level cap, well that's going to be a problem in the Netheril Empire they go up too level 45.

So I need to know can one go beyond officially in D&D 5th level 20?,


LW



So, technically 5e doesn't allow for character growth beyond 20th level, however I don't think that's really the issue here. What you're asking is can there be characters beyond 20, and the answer is - yes. If you look at supplements such as Waterdeep: Dragon Heist, it details several NPCs stats such as Laeral Silverhand and Manshoon. Laeral has 24 Hit Die (so, it exceeds 20 "levels") and Manshoon has 23. What does this mean?

Well, for starters they're not made like PCs. The ideas that a NPC/Monster rules need to match that of a PC have been dead for several years - and for good reason. They don't share the same role/point in a game like D&D. With limiting factors, such as Action Economy, a monster that needs to be able to fight multiple foes at once needs more leeway than what a player does.

Lets start with this: In your mind's eye, what powerful magics can a 45th level Wizard accomplish that sets them apart from someone of 20th level? More spells? Higher DC? Access to 10th level spells? More hit points? All of the above?

If you're going to go the route of higher hit-die, then I'd suggest going an easy route:[list]
Waaaay more Hit Points.
Legendary Actions.
Hand-wave the limits on attuned magic items
Access to 10th level spell rituals.
Magic Resistance
Dual Concentration on spells

Lastly, give them unique features only they can use. Also, Paragon and Epic tiers are 4th Edition terms. I can assume that you're at least vaguely familiar with that ruleset? That being the case, why not pilfer monster powers and auras from that edition? An Aura 3 (15-ft) that causes say....Wild Magic Surges would be pretty cool for a Chaotic Evil arcanist attempting to access the Far Realm, for example. I would still keep things in 5e-rules/terms though.

Basically figured out what a 45th level Arcanist is capable of that a 20th level Wizard isn't, then fill the gap with special effects that are particular to the NPC being made, using higher than 20 Hit Die as a measure of Hit Points.

Edited by - Diffan on 05 Mar 2023 11:10:54
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LWhitehead1
Learned Scribe

115 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2023 :  17:07:52  Show Profile Send LWhitehead1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes Boons past 20th level, but I looked at the original Arcanist is early form of Wizard but my version can learn Magic like Wizards and they also are like Sorcerers and Warlocks they can draw Magic straight from the Well or drain from the Outer Planes permenetly it's one reasons why there hated and feared. An Arcanist is walking Mana Battery they can use Magic objects such as wands, staves, rods, rings and balls without charges. Like a Human Mythallar in the Mekhane Empire not every Human can use Magic but Magic touches there lives such globes of lights that are powered by ball that is charged by a Arcanist.

LW
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36656 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2023 :  18:24:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That seems overly powerful.

If magic is such a part of the everyday person's life, why do they hate and fear these mages? How does the average person know that these guys are somehow drawing power from elsewhere, and why should they care?

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7839 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2023 :  07:30:56  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Technology is part of everyone's daily life in our society.

The average person certainly doesn't hate and fear the computer nerd at the computer store.

But the average person does hate and fear evil computer hackers.

[/Ayrik]
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11493 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2023 :  17:13:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Technology is part of everyone's daily life in our society.

The average person certainly doesn't hate and fear the computer nerd at the computer store.

But the average person does hate and fear evil computer hackers.



Very nice analogy.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
793 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2023 :  00:31:30  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Did the poster resolve the original issue?
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