| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Dec 2022 : 18:04:52
|
Moving On From 'Race' in One D&D
There's more to the post, but the essential information is:
quote:
In the next Unearthed Arcana containing playtest materials for One D&D, we are presenting a replacement for the term "race." That new term is “species.”
We know this is an important change to D&D—one that requires an open conversation with our community. And we want to be clear about a few things as we playtest the new term.
- We have made the decision to move on from using the term "race" everywhere in One D&D, and we do not intend to return to that term.
- The term "species" was chosen in close coordination with multiple outside cultural consultants.
- In the survey for this Unearthed Arcana playtest, which will go live on December 21, players will be able to give feedback on the term “species” along with everything else present in the playtest materials.
Given the way that some people's heads exploded at the note, a few years back, that characters could be LGBT, I'm sure this will cause heads to explode again.
I think it's a good idea, though... Even if you take all the real-world racial elements out of the equation, I've always thought it was awkward to use that word in D&D, for the simple fact that in the real world, racial differences are minor, if not entirely cosmetic -- but in D&D, elves and dwarves and such are very different from each other and from humans, yet the same term that described minor differences in the real world described major physiological differences in D&D.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2022 : 18:09:51
|
Oh, and keeping in mind the previous reaction I mentioned... This discussion WILL stay civil and respectful. I don't care if a person disagrees with this change or not, so long as they stick to the Code of Conduct (see the link in my sig) whilst discussing it.
Don't be dismissive or insulting, or attack people for disagreeing. I should hope that's not too much to ask, but if it is, I'll readily remove posts or lock the discussion. I don't like putting on the +3 Mod Hat (it gives me a bad case of hathead), so I'd really like it if people didn't give me a reason.
Besides, I don't want to deal with the dust that's gathered on it! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
 |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2022 : 18:21:44
|
I have seen the argument that "heritage," "lineage," or "ancestry" would be better options.
And while I'm not convinced "species" is the best replacement, I think it works better than those other terms -- because heritage can be something like real estate or titles that's inherited, lineage is more often associated with noble or royal lines of descent, and ancestry can refer to things like the country a family originated in -- I have Irish and Scottish ancestry, for example.
"Species" has a bit too much of a sci-fi, clinical feel to it, but I think it's better than the other words I've seen used.
Any other alternative words someone would care to offer? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
|
|
deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2022 : 20:38:33
|
Race in it's original sense simply means people, just as the word nation means people. It was and is a perfectly apt word to describe the different peoples of Faerun (or D&D).
Also I'm not sure who WotC is expecting to impress with this change. PF already did this with PF2. Instead Paizo chose the word ancestry which I like better, since species gives sounds way too technical and much more apt for a sci-fi setting. |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2022 : 21:12:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Moving On From 'Race' in One D&D
There's more to the post, but the essential information is:
quote:
In the next Unearthed Arcana containing playtest materials for One D&D, we are presenting a replacement for the term "race." That new term is “species.”
We know this is an important change to D&D—one that requires an open conversation with our community. And we want to be clear about a few things as we playtest the new term.
- We have made the decision to move on from using the term "race" everywhere in One D&D, and we do not intend to return to that term.
- The term "species" was chosen in close coordination with multiple outside cultural consultants.
- In the survey for this Unearthed Arcana playtest, which will go live on December 21, players will be able to give feedback on the term “species” along with everything else present in the playtest materials.
Given the way that some people's heads exploded at the note, a few years back, that characters could be LGBT, I'm sure this will cause heads to explode again.
I think it's a good idea, though... Even if you take all the real-world racial elements out of the equation, I've always thought it was awkward to use that word in D&D, for the simple fact that in the real world, racial differences are minor, if not entirely cosmetic -- but in D&D, elves and dwarves and such are very different from each other and from humans, yet the same term that described minor differences in the real world described major physiological differences in D&D.
Honestly, sounds like a potential excuse for lazy and cheap designs, like races/species being monocultures and whatever.
Things like "it's ok to say that X are all like this, 'cause X is a different species, not a race."
But IMO it's quite pointless. Fantasy races/species/what you have, are mostly just humans at various stages of civilization, with one exaggerated aspect of normal human cultures, and with funny looks and superpowers. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 04 Dec 2022 21:16:12 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2022 : 21:26:28
|
It also raises weird questions like "yeah, different species, but at what level do they diverge? Species itself? Genus? Family? Friggin' Kingdom? If so, how is it possible that everything can mix with basically everything else in D&D?"
But it honestly pisses me off when they try to make things look more "sciency", especially when their worldbuilding is the eiptome of "this happens regardless of any logic, because it's fantasy so why not". |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 04 Dec 2022 21:26:57 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2022 : 23:04:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
But it honestly pisses me off when they try to make things look more "sciency", especially when their worldbuilding is the eiptome of "this happens regardless of any logic, because it's fantasy so why not".
I'm willing to assume they weren't trying to sound sciencey, and that they decided, for their own reasons, that species was the best word.
I agree that it's got too much of science-feel, but I already listed my reasons for preferring it to heritage, ancestry, or lineage. They're all cromulent words, I just don't think any of the four is ideal. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2022 : 23:19:09
|
| Species is generally ok. I am not sure it really applies since so many of the character races can interbreed and I believe two different species cannot interbreed (not sure, biology was a LONG time ago). People may be a better choice. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
|
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2022 : 23:26:36
|
@Wooly
Species is a taxonomy term, you don't see it used anywhere else when it comes to describing living things. They chose a scientific term, that has a specific meaning in the context where it's used, and doing so raises all sorts of questions and implications, that they'll obviously just handwave away. When you invoke science, what you create will be seen from that perspective even if that wasn't your intention, and if it doesn't make sense (and D&D 100% doesn't), then it'll just be crappy sciencebabble. It's a damn awful idea for classic, kitchen sink fantasy to go anywhere remotely near science. It's a good way to kiss your audience's suspension of disbelief goodbye, unless your audience is 100% ignorant of even basic things (and the D&D audience doesn't seem to fall under that--rather slim nowadays--category).
They could have sticked with ancestry and avoided the possible problems of using "race", while maintaing a fantasy feeling. But nope, they had to go taxonomy. In any case, it's whatever; as I said, at the end of the day, every fantasy race is just a metaphor for a human, so any semantics is just pointless here. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 04 Dec 2022 23:29:58 |
|
|
|
Athreeren
Learned Scribe
144 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2022 : 01:38:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I have seen the argument that "heritage," "lineage," or "ancestry" would be better options.
And while I'm not convinced "species" is the best replacement, I think it works better than those other terms -- because heritage can be something like real estate or titles that's inherited, lineage is more often associated with noble or royal lines of descent, and ancestry can refer to things like the country a family originated in -- I have Irish and Scottish ancestry, for example.
"Species" has a bit too much of a sci-fi, clinical feel to it, but I think it's better than the other words I've seen used.
Any other alternative words someone would care to offer?
I completely agree: if they were going to wait until 2023 to finally get rid of such a toxic word as race, couldn't they find anything better? Heritage / lineage / ancestry would all be fine considering what they're going for, since they seem to be treating what used to be called "race" as a completely cosmetic choice. I really don't see how it would make sense that the average difference of strength between a pixie and a warforged would be so small, but if that's how things are going to be, those words are a good mirror of that reality.
I think the best solution would have been to use a diegetic classification, by an anthropologist whose views are removed enough from any real world racism that the word would not be problematic. "Quess" for instance keeps the meaning, has a fantasy ring to it, and doesn't have any of the baggage since it's a fictional word. Unless I come across a better suggestion, I'll probably start using something like that. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2022 : 02:04:10
|
The language changes, "race" used to differentiate people by ethnicity, type, creed. It was a more neutral term in Gygax's era, everybody had to be one race or another. It was only bad when it turned into "racism", less a recognition that everybody is different and more an idea that one difference is superior or inferior to another.
So now they call it "species". I suppose it's good to get away from "racism". It does mildly sadden me that something traditional is being discarded in favour of current trends, but then again not all traditions are worth keeping.
Doesn't really bother me much either way. I imagine that "speciesism" will one day become a hated term which passionate people demand gets changed. If people are offended by "race" then I'll say "species". Even though I believe rational people can easily recognize when any particular word is meant to be harmless or to be insulting. We live in a world where too many people are not rational.
Although I am intrigued by how much emphasis they put on this minor change. As if they really don't have better things to do and more important things (like maybe rules and lore) to focus their efforts onto. It looks like marketing to me, and as always the harder they try to sell it the less you need to buy it. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Dec 2022 02:07:31 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2022 : 03:09:48
|
One thing to keep in mind is that they may change from species to something else, based on the feedback.
quote:
- In the survey for this Unearthed Arcana playtest, which will go live on December 21, players will be able to give feedback on the term “species” along with everything else present in the playtest materials.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2022 : 03:45:48
|
I do readily accept that the term "demihumans" was always clumsy. Other games suggest "metahumans", "nonhumans", and "humanoids" but to me the implied comparison with "humans" is always unwarranted.
I wonder when they'll tackle "dwarf" and "halfling" and "half-elf"/"half-orc"/"half-whatever", lol, no doubt some people will complain those labels are offensive. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2022 : 04:25:31
|
I don’t care if they call Race “What Goefor are you?” Doesn’t matter to me.
EDIT: they will only open up the same box again. Call something a name long enough and someone will eventually be forced to take offense because some morons will use the word deliberately as an insult or worse… |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 05 Dec 2022 04:27:22 |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2022 : 16:46:41
|
| I don't mind the change. If race was deemed problematic, then so be it. I prefer the name Lineage because that sounds more Renaissance and the fact that you can create your own creature type anyway means your "roots" can compromise of a lot of different sects. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2022 : 17:15:05
|
| I see no problem with race. If you look up synonyms for species, race is one. It's been acceptably used by most authors to call other cultures in fantasy different "races" for a long time. As many note, species sounds way too scientific and I don't see the average farmer using it. They could say "breed", but that just sounds bad to my ear. I see other people saying lineage and ancestry... and I could see those as possibilities, but then it sounds like its the same type of being ... just different parents. Race is more definitive as "he's different, not just in bloodline". I won't get into why I think they're making this change, because I don't want my response removed, but it does make me a little tired of this kind of effort on their part. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2022 : 19:13:36
|
| How about the word "folk"? |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2022 : 20:51:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
How about the word "folk"?
Better... I won't say better than race... but better than species, ancestry, and lineage. But of all the terms thrown out, if they "have" to change it, that one would seem to be more of a "hey, they're not related". In regards species, it really does kind of break down because as some have noted the whole kingdom, phylum, etc... thing. Well, myconids are "intelligent plants" and not even animals, so just calling them a "different species" just sounds irksome. Also, in conversational terms, I can hear a farmer saying "the elven folk" or "the dwarven folk" or "the aarakocran folk", etc...
Just to throw out there as well, just to not invalidate the term, I could see "scholars" using race as a way to differentiate beings of the same "type" but not the same grouping. What do I mean by that? I mean the literal "type" ... such as humanoid, elemental, plant, aberration, undead, etc.... Kind of the mirror of our scientific one of kingdom, phylum, blah blah. So, goblins and bugbears and humans might all be referred to as the same "race" by some, but they'd call a mindflayer "folk".... meanwhile a volodni and a myconid might both be seen as "separate races of the plant folk". When it comes to things like "monstrosities" they might break it down further into things like "the tauric folk" and "the talking beast folk". If some people's campaigns don't want to use that... fine... but they don't need to overhaul the entire system just because some small group suddenly has some issue with the word. It shouldn't suddenly become "offensive" to use the word. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 05 Dec 2022 21:14:21 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2022 : 23:16:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
If some people's campaigns don't want to use that... fine... but they don't need to overhaul the entire system just because some small group suddenly has some issue with the word. It shouldn't suddenly become "offensive" to use the word.
I would hardly consider swapping out a single word to be overhauling the entire system.
And no one is saying it's "suddenly become offensive" to use the word. It's a recognition that there's a huge disconnect between real-world usage of the word and in-game usage of the word, and that it's better to change it rather than bring real-world mindsets and issues into the game.
This is also why people -- myself included -- are saying that species isn't the best replacement. We have certain expectations, based on science, for what that word means -- and using it in a fantasy background makes us think of those science elements and break immersion. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2022 : 01:35:45
|
Race continues to be used in fantasy (saying something like dwarven species sounds weird), and, as pointed out, it means people. I mean, if you want to get technical, humans are a species, not a race, but there are races of humans, so species is correct, but...idk, feels a bit weird. I am not opposed to it, but it feels off for a fantasy setting.
It works better than ancestry or heritage though, as the other two imply racial (species?) traits, both physical and cultural, but that can get muddy. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2022 : 01:40:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
If some people's campaigns don't want to use that... fine... but they don't need to overhaul the entire system just because some small group suddenly has some issue with the word. It shouldn't suddenly become "offensive" to use the word.
I would hardly consider swapping out a single word to be overhauling the entire system.
And no one is saying it's "suddenly become offensive" to use the word. It's a recognition that there's a huge disconnect between real-world usage of the word and in-game usage of the word, and that it's better to change it rather than bring real-world mindsets and issues into the game.
This is also why people -- myself included -- are saying that species isn't the best replacement. We have certain expectations, based on science, for what that word means -- and using it in a fantasy background makes us think of those science elements and break immersion.
By overhaul I mean having to change text in products all over if they presume to reuse existing text. Then people having to remember "oh yeah, when I read species, they mean race". Just to be clear.
And yes, we're both agreeing about how species breaks immersion. Now, whether race as a word used brings a lot of baggage into the game or is a huge disconnect, that's where we'll disagree. As I said before, if you look for a synonym of species, race is one of the ones listed. When fantasy authors would write about things like elves, they might refer to them as "the elven race". You think it has a need to change. I personally don't and feel like there are people (not you) trying to turn the word into something its not in several sectors nowadays, and so it saddens me to see this game jumping on the bandwagon. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2022 : 02:46:28
|
| I think one thing about this is that these changes are, for the most part, not for us. At least, they're implemented NOW so that a generation or two down the line it won't feel weird or odd that it's species. If some people in the Boomer, Gen X, or Millennial group switches over and uses Species or Lineage over Race, then fine but thats a bonus and not the target. |
|
|
|
Outlaw Pope
Acolyte
43 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2022 : 12:11:48
|
I don't care too much. But it's funny to me that their PR team has them broadcasting this instead of any community feedback in the playtest so far. lol
I think Species is okay, Race was fine too. It's OOC label that has no effect on the realms or any terms used In Setting of which I am sure there are all kinds of strange, kind, and horribly offensive ways its denizens can refer to the things they care to label. |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2022 : 14:26:56
|
In a game where Race is a literal thing because there are more than humans, the change is misplaced.
Next we won't be able to use the word monster for Dragons, Demons and such because it is deemed derogatory.
I can wholly understand not calling the different ethnicities of one race different races. Dalesmen and Thayans (if human) are all one race...that is correct.
But saying we can't use Race to clarify the differences between a Hafling and a Human is getting silly. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2022 : 19:00:26
|
This change seems like a solution in search of a problem; was anyone really worried that using Race as the indentifier for fantasy species was problematic? The Human Race, Elven Race, Dwarven Race, etc. doesn't seem at all problematic.
That said, Species is fine for me, it's just a different word that means the same thing in this context. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2022 : 20:50:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
In a game where Race is a literal thing because there are more than humans, the change is misplaced.
Next we won't be able to use the word monster for Dragons, Demons and such because it is deemed derogatory.
I can wholly understand not calling the different ethnicities of one race different races. Dalesmen and Thayans (if human) are all one race...that is correct.
But saying we can't use Race to clarify the differences between a Hafling and a Human is getting silly.
They're not saying the word can't be used, just that they won't use it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2022 : 21:10:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
In a game where Race is a literal thing because there are more than humans, the change is misplaced.
Next we won't be able to use the word monster for Dragons, Demons and such because it is deemed derogatory.
I can wholly understand not calling the different ethnicities of one race different races. Dalesmen and Thayans (if human) are all one race...that is correct.
But saying we can't use Race to clarify the differences between a Hafling and a Human is getting silly.
They're not saying the word can't be used, just that they won't use it.
I didn't mean to imply a literalness to what I was saying...only that if they change it to something other than Race, then it is silly when they are LITERAL races. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2022 : 02:48:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I didn't mean to imply a literalness to what I was saying...only that if they change it to something other than Race, then it is silly when they are LITERAL races.
The problem is the disconnect between what race means outside the game and what it means inside the game. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2022 : 06:32:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I didn't mean to imply a literalness to what I was saying...only that if they change it to something other than Race, then it is silly when they are LITERAL races.
The problem is the disconnect between what race means outside the game and what it means inside the game.
I think it is only a problem for racist people; but in essence I understand what you are saying and agree with it. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Scars Unseen
Acolyte
Japan
16 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2022 : 19:45:03
|
In the recent survey, I chose "kind" as the best replacement. I don't like it or any of the other options, and I think if people want to use any of them to facilitate real world racism, they're going to, but "kind" at least has similar archaic usage to "race," i.e "human kind," "the human race."
Personally, I'll probably just continue to use race in everyday (gaming context) conversation. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Moving On From 'Race' in One D&D
