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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Nov 2022 : 08:10:31
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Hi!
Does the Polymorph spell influence/alter/restrict the worship and eventual afterlife destination of those who happen to be permanently shapeshifted (against their will or otherwise)?
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Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
89 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2022 : 09:57:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Hi!
Does the Polymorph spell influence/alter/restrict the worship and eventual afterlife destination of those who happen to be permanently shapeshifted (against their will or otherwise)?
No.
There's no reason why it would. |
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
160 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2022 : 11:42:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Hi!
Does the Polymorph spell influence/alter/restrict the worship and eventual afterlife destination of those who happen to be permanently shapeshifted (against their will or otherwise)?
No.
There's no reason why it would.
Don't those spells eventually warp the mind of the target over time, making their thinking and alignment more in tune with their shape? I've seen this in several FR stories, but I don't know whether that's in the rules (and I don't know how much that is magic, and how much it is just the expected result of being less meek if you're now an effing dragon for instance) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2022 : 15:07:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren
quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Hi!
Does the Polymorph spell influence/alter/restrict the worship and eventual afterlife destination of those who happen to be permanently shapeshifted (against their will or otherwise)?
No.
There's no reason why it would.
Don't those spells eventually warp the mind of the target over time, making their thinking and alignment more in tune with their shape? I've seen this in several FR stories, but I don't know whether that's in the rules (and I don't know how much that is magic, and how much it is just the expected result of being less meek if you're now an effing dragon for instance)
It was in the rules, 1st Edition and 2nd.
quote:
When the physical change occurs, there is a base 100% chance that the subjects personality and mentality change into that of new form (i.e., a roll of 20 or less on 1d20). For each 1 point of Intelligence of the subject, subtract 1 from the base chance on 1d20. Additionally, for every Hit Die of difference between the original form and the form it is assuming, add or subtract 1 (depending on whether polymorphed form has more Hit Dice [or levels) or fewer Hit Dice [or levels] than original, respectively). The chance for assumption of the personality and mentality of the new form is checked daily until the change takes place.
A subject acquiring the mentality of the new form has effectively become the creature whose form was assumed and comes under the control of the DM until recovered by a wish spell or similar magic. Once this final change takes place, the creature acquires the new form's full range of magical and special abilities.
Example: If a 1 Hit Die orc of 8 Intelligence is polymorphed into a white dragon with 6 Hit Dice, for example, it is 85% (20- 8 Intelligence + 5 levels difference [16-1]=17 out of 20= 85%) likely to actually become one in all respects, but in any case it has the dragon's physical and mental capabilities. If it does not assume the personality and mentality of a white dragon, it knows what it formerly knew as well.
The wizard can use a dispell magic spell to change the polymorphed creature back to its original form, and this requires a system shock roll. Those who have lost their individuality and are then converted back maintain the belief that they are actually the polymorphed creature and attempt to return to that form.
In 3rd Polymorph Any Object does not indicate mind changed, however the duration is Permanent Example Manticore to shrew. Of course the magic effect should be dispellable, to return to oridgeinal form. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2022 : 05:17:30
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Two examples came to mind ->
1. An Elf that is part of a racial fraternity/sorority (i.e., a character Class that requires one be an Elf) is hit with a Polymorph and turned into a Human. Will they lose eligibility?
2. A Human is turned into an Elf; is their new "soul" Elven or are they SOL as far as broader acceptance goes? Do the Seldarine in particular welcome them or...? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2022 : 05:58:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Two examples came to mind ->
1. An Elf that is part of a racial fraternity/sorority (i.e., a character Class that requires one be an Elf) is hit with a Polymorph and turned into a Human. Will they lose eligibility?
2. A Human is turned into an Elf; is their new "soul" Elven or are they SOL as far as broader acceptance goes? Do the Seldarine in particular welcome them or...?
It was that any character effected to be changed, fell under control of the DM until cured (Wish, or at least better then dispel).
1. If your elf believes is a human, would not want to be a member of elf racial fraternity/sorority most likely. As for the society they most likely they would suspend or expel the character due to affliction.
2. A fully changed character takes on all abilities and traits, so as far as living goes would be an elf. The deities however know more and after death transform the character back to human. That though would be a DM call, the fact the spell can be reversed in life, however does not mean it can be after death.
In any case changed belief in what the character believes is, almost certainly could result in change of deity most followed. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2475 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2022 : 14:01:58
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There's a relevant answer from Ed.
The gods don't need to split hairs over fringe cases when they have an option to restart the generic mechanism which produces the results. In cases where a soul isn't definitely Wall-bound, but the claims became tenuous for some reason or it otherwise isn't fit to be a proper petitioner, there is a simple way out of needless headaches. A deity can have one reincarnated, and hope the situation will resolve itself by the time the next life is over. It probably will.
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
2. A Human is turned into an Elf; is their new "soul" Elven or are they SOL as far as broader acceptance goes? Do the Seldarine in particular welcome them or...?
For this purpose, polymorph is irrelevant, because the character in question is still free to worship whoever and whatever (and live with the consequences). I mean, some combinations are anomalous enough to raise an eyebrow or two if demonstrated openly and gleefully (as with those Sunite elves), but what of it?
This may matter only as much as the character needs the deity to respond in some way, i.e. for purpose of divine magic.
Other than that, would not matter until it's time to claim one as a petitioner, but there's no obvious reasons why this cannot be resolved normally.
Immediately after which it becomes even more of a moot point, as deities are free to shape their own petitioners however it pleases them. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2022 : 15:16:08
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| I am uncertain as to how the fundamentals of worship as it pertains to priests were revised - if at all - during the 4e era onwards, but I seem to recall Elves in general feeling the call of Arvandor (more strongly than any other Outer Plane?). My perspective is that there's clearly an affinity beyond mere cultural conditioning; it's possible that I'm off the mark here, but that pull appears to be intrinsic to their spirits and only deliberate piety against the default (e.g., a Tormite Sun Elf that likely heads to The Seven Heavens of Mount Celestia upon their passing) possibly negates the lure of the assumed Elven afterlife. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2475 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2022 : 19:14:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I seem to recall Elves in general feeling the call of Arvandor (more strongly than any other Outer Plane?). My perspective is that there's clearly an affinity beyond mere cultural conditioning;
IIRC, according to Planescape, any elf who wanders into Arvandor while alive feels the urge to just disregard everything and stay there. Mechanically, a Wis (willpower) saving throw, much like all mortals on the Wastes have to roll it regularly, but being lost to mindless fun rather than hopeless gloom.
As to what happens on Abeir-Toril:
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Elf Age Tables
Unlike the generic AD&D game elf, the elves of ancient Toril have a slightly longer mortal lifespan before they move on to Arvandor. The Age & Aging Effects Tables, therefore, are adjusted specifically for elves born during this ARCANE AGE campaign. Note that an elf of any type can exceed normal life expectancies by such benefits as divine intervention and notice (by Corellon, Labelas, Lolth, or even Mystra), High Magic, or other arcane methods. In fact, the indoctrinations of most High Mages involve a Ritual of Revival that extends their lives to allow the pursuit of High Magic.
The drow lifespan is shortened appreciably due to their additional powers gained in the Underdark which nullify the Weave's beneficial effects upon their vitality.
- Cormanthyr p.9
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Elven Priests
During the ARCANE AGE and the rise of Cormanthyr, elves could be both clerics and priests of the Seldarine gods. When Myth Drannor is opened to the N'Tel'Quess cultures, Cormanthyran elves can then begin to become priests of non-elven religions as well.
There are few level expansions beyond normal limits for a very simple reason. The priests and clerics commune with the gods for blessings and powers, and the closer the communion (i.e., higher the level), the stronger the Call to Arvandor becomes. Finally, the elf simply gives in to the Call and Passes Beyond, and physically, rather than just spiritually, joins with his gods in Arvanaith.
- Cormanthyr p.10
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Elven Court is now a ritualized communion of present-day elven leaders. Gatherings last anywhere from four to 24 hours and cannot be convened without the presence of at least one tree-spirit: A number of elves who chose to be buried in special ceremonies under the roots of Cormanthyr's trees have become part of Cormanthor physically and psychically, and are henceforth tree-spirits. Rather than communing with the Call of Arvandor, they commune with the trees and the lifeweb of all plantlife on Toril.
- Cormanthyr p.110
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The Theories of High Magic
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All elves also feel a pull toward the elven homeland of Arvandor, the home of the Seldarine, and this pull grows stronger with the passing centuries. It is not so much a call by the gods to pull elves to their sides but a yearning for all elves to journey to Arvanaith, the hidden homeland realm of the elves in Arvandor. In Arvanaith, according to belief, all elves become of one mind and one spirit with the gods.
In all, this ability to be part of a greater whole and link one mind with many is discretely elven. High Magic both interferes with and fulfills the needs of exceptional elves by allowing them to touch the Weave and become part of its greater whole while still in mortal realms. Given the length of time involved in learning High Magic for the defense of the elven realms, an elf must ignore the call of Arvandor and remain on Toril far beyond the years when many elves move beyond. In essence, High Magic and its learning is a conscious decision to delay one's movement to Arvandor by relegating the need and longing for the mental communion of Arvanaith into High Magic workings.
- Cormanthyr p.125
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Fhaor 'Akh 'Tel'Quess/"Tribute of One's Duty to the People": This ceremony allows an elf of any age or health to sacrifice his or her life and normal existence in order to better serve the clan or community in a different form. This ritual severs the elf's ties with the Call to Arvandor, but the duty and the powers of its new form prevent the elf from descending into madness; now, the Call is replaced by the Duty the form gives him.
Elves can become undead baelnorn, or Reverend Ones, in which their duty is guardianship of things, places, or people. They can also be transformed into tree spirits (choice of form as dryad, hamadryad, satyr, or treant), in which their duty is the guardianship of the trees and to act as advisers of Elven court.
- Cormanthyr p.135
So, it's impossible to be a Seldarine-worshiping elf without feeling The Call. Silencing it requires transformation into a baelnorn or some non-elf creature.
But also, it is possible to redirect it, and there's a non-heretical way to do so (which results in the tree-spirits).
Artificial life extension is necessary for study of more than basics of High Magic, but HM only stave off and sublimate The Call, not disable or substitute it. Which also explains why they tend to jump at "dramatic self-sacrifice" option if it's anywhere on the table.
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U'Aestar'Kess/"One Heart, One Mind, One Breath": This ritual provides a creature and an elf with a mental link, not unlike the one shared among elves in communion. This link is permanently forged. Most often, this ritual is used as a marriage rite, forging a bond between spouses, though it is not limited to pairs of elves. An animal mount and rider might form an empathic link that allows them to interact far more closely than two creatures (two elves, or animal and elf, or other pairings) normally could.
The link between the two creatures is permanent, and allows the linked elf or elves to ignore the Call to Arvandor for greater periods of time due to the communal nature of the link. The two creatures are partners, friends, lovers, or kindred in all but form; each knows when the other is in danger and will stop at little to render aid. This passive link is always semi-empathic, but with intense concentration, it can become telepathic, allowing mind-to-mind communication. While all rituals are assumed to have elf targets, this union could easily be formed for all races, linking dwarves or humans with elves.
- Cormanthyr p.133-134
...or partially displace/counterbalance it with additional permanent connections.
Non-Seldarine worshipers were not really discussed. But this defaults to not having any greater lifespan without divine intervention, thus only counts as another redirection. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Faith and Polymorph in The Realms?
