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TBeholder
Great Reader

2377 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2022 :  16:24:16  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
What lore is there on magical poisons, general or specific, beyond "X is a magical poison"?
Such as: do they stop working in a dead magic area? If yes, do they continue upon re-entering intact Weave? What happens in wild magic area?
Are there different answers to these question for "as prepared substances" vs. "in creatures under active effect"?
This sort of things.

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

... disenchanters. They could actually have an almost symbiotic nature with the opossums or actually keep them to generate food for them (disenchanters are intelligent).

...and yes - do they count as nutrition for a disenchanter, gauth, etc? In ready form and in creatures under effect?

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2022 :  19:37:00  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is something that more than likely will need George's input since he wrote a DMsGuild book on poisons.

FWIW and to get the discussion going, a poison is a chemical or compound that will have a negative affect on one or more of a person's systems. Neurotoxins attack a person's nervous system while some creature's venoms will directly attack a person's blood (hemotoxin?). A magic based poison isn't really a poison, right? It uses magic to attack the systems and if it is something with an extended effect, it would be like a spell with a duration on the person. In that case, it should be stopped by dead magic zones and "eaten" by a disenchanter (wild magic wouldn't affect it since it doesn't have an effect on magic already in effect). Also, since it isn't really a chemical or compound, detect poison or neutralize poison would have no effect. It would have to be dispel magic or maybe a remove curse.

With that said, you could have a magic poison with no duration that is not immediately lethal. Something that could kill your liver would have you get sicker and sicker until you die. Same thing with some other organs or systems (how long can you live without a limbic system). Since it is instantaneous, there is nothing to dispel and your only hope would be a medium to high level cure.

For both of these, any kind of protections from poisons would be ineffective.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2022 :  20:33:00  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, what exactly is the definition of "a magical poison" versus "a curse" or "a necromantic spell that affects the body"? I think that's the main question you have to answer first. So, for instance, if someone had a injectable magical affect that makes the body begin to change its blood type, and thereby organs start shutting down because they reject it.... I'd be hard pressed to not call that a necromantic spell that has a material component and a required attack roll. So, what effects might make a poison "magical"

Some things come to mind as possibilities. I'll list some ideas and you guys can tear them up

A poison that has had some conjuration effect applied so that it continues creation of the poison unless its somehow removed from the body

A poison, bacteria, or virus that is accompanied by a necromantic spell affect that makes the poison more potent (by maybe limiting the body's ability to create white blood cells, or limiting the ability of blood to clot, or slowing the heart rate, etc...),

A poison that is specifically made to be magic resistant for neutralizing the poison itself.

That's the main ideas that come to my mind right now, but someone with medical background can probably think of others.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 05 Oct 2022 20:34:32
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2022 :  22:39:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's some past Edlore, on poisons:

quote:
That early Realms article of mine on poisons does exist and was purchased by TSR, so it’s still NDA-covered, I’m afraid. I suspect it was ‘suppressed’ for the usual ‘we don’t want any lawsuits’ reasons that has kept real-world poisons from being discussed overmuch in Realms products.

Let’s glance very briefly at those real-world poisons. Being in the UK, you have a lovely (if that’s the right word) resource not easily available to gamers not on the Sceptered Isle: the Poison Garden at Alnwick Castle, in Northumberland. (By the long arm of inane and entirely irrelevant coincidence, I live in the namesake county of Northumberland in Ontario, Canada.) There you can go and see many poisonous plants growing (literally like weeds: remember, in medieval times these plants would rarely have been cultivated, so hardy wild plant species were the only plants folk had to test and try and build up lore about), some of them caged and guarded around the clock for public safety.

I’ll list a few poisons known and used in medieval times, in no particular order: monk’s-hood (wolfbane, foxglove: aconite), deadly nightshade (belladonna), box tree, giant hogweed, hemlock, castor oil plants (ricin), mandrake, darnel (a poisonous GRASS!), henbane, hellebore (green and black, two different plants, both poisonous), laburnam (cytosine), monk’s pepper, hemp (cocaine; yes, overdoses poison, causing memory loss in particular), and Quaker’s Button (the plant has many other names, but its poison usually gets called either strychnine or curare [yes, this is the ‘death rictus’ grin-causing stuff]).

Please note that all of these plant-derived substances also have beneficial (or believed at times to be beneficial) medical uses. There are MANY good reference books on this topic, but one of the most pleasant to read and therefore inspiring for DMs who don’t want to devote more than an hour or so of reading to such matters is BROTHER CADFAEL’S HERB GARDEN (1996; Little, Brown and Company; by Rob Talbot and RobinWhiteman, various ISBNs for various editions, but two of the hardcover ISBNs are 0-316-88224-0 and 0-8212-2387-9, available at many libraries in the UK and North America). Another good ‘quick and popular,’ but not as inspiring, text that North American libraries may have is MAGIC AND MEDICINE OF PLANTS published by Reader’s Digest (1986, written by “Reader’s Digest,” ISBN 0-89577-221-3).

In Realmsplay, I’ve always assumed that these are present in the Realms, and used much as they were in real-world medieval England (in other words, I’ll never invent effects for them, or distort their real effects into something different). In the Realms as in real life, priesthoods, cults, guilds, and other power groups such as private clubs and cabals often make use of the hallucinogenic effects of herbs and concoctions. The state of seeing hallucinations [this also touches on Verghityax’s query about diseases (on which I’m working :})] is known in the Realms, by the way, as ‘godmad’ (because all visions, nightmares, etc. are believed to be sent to mortals, for one reason or another, by the gods).

On to the imaginary poisons.

I trust you’re familiar with the drugs published in the 3e LORDS OF DARKNESS tome (I contributed some of them, but Sean Reynolds fixed and fine-tuned all of their game rules details) and the poisons that appear in various e3 D&D rulebooks. Earlier in this thread (back on Page 23) I provided names and effects - - sans specific game rules - - of some other drugs, including both poisonous ones and poison antidotes.

Faraer kindly listed poisons (usually of my creation) that have appeared in earlier rulebooks: belpren, drow sleep poison, dwarfbane, huld, jeteye, lhurdas, night sleep, orvas, prespra, saisha, ulcrun, and varrakas. Do you need references or details for these?

Lastly, here are two ‘new’ poisons from my files, both of them principally derived from entirely imaginary plants.

Horel: a distillation of the leaves of a certain lilypad-like floating freshwater weed called “halfling’s hand” or “oxhrel,” mixed in particular (and secret) proportions with dried and powdered horseradish. This greenish liquid does no harm by contact or ingestion, but if insinuated into the bloodstream (by means of a sharp or pointed weapon), it causes violent, involuntary convulsions, onset 1d2 rounds and lasting for 1d4 rounds (effects: 4-point penalty on victim’s AC and attack rolls, inability to remain still or complete delicate tasks such as pouring liquids without spillage, putting a small key in a lock, arranging beads, tying or untying knots, buttons, or pouch-toggles, etc.).

Tharace: a precise and secret mixture of the powdered roots of two grasses (“talltuft” and “marath”), a streambank plant known for its tiny three-leaf white flowers (“lurteasel”), and a groundvine known for its many tiny red edible berries (“blood-drops” or “bloodfall”). This brownish powder NEVER clumps or cakes, even if wet or frozen. If ingested or insinuated into the blood (but not by mere contact), it numbs all bodily sensations and entirely disrupts all commands sent by nerves to body limbs and extremities (onset time 1d4+1 rounds, duration 3d4 rounds). The head and always torso are unaffected. In other words, a victim can speak, breathe, and swallow, but can’t cling to anything or hold anything (weapons will be dropped). The total blanketing of pain greatly lessens shock, so tharace is often administered before amputations or other surgery. It has also been slipped into food to make an intended murder victim helpless to defend himself or to prevent him from involuntarily crying out when struck (e.g. when stabbed from behind) due to the pain. Any quantity of tharace that gets baked in desert heat or beside a campfire (i.e. in garments being dried out) or cooked in food, or that comes into contact with alcohol, loses all of its effects forever - - but not when such contact occurs in the body of a victim upon whom the tharace is working (in other words, drinking much wine or eating food before or after eating tharace-laced food doesn’t stop tharace effects, but tharace can’t be slipped into wine, ale, or food that will then be cooked, and still be effective when ingested). Only pine gum and various tree saps can ‘bind’ powdery tharace to a metallic weapon such as a dart, needle, or dagger blade without harming it; water just washes it off, and most sauces and glues react with both the metal and the tharace to neutralize the tharace. (This effect doesn’t occur with wooden weapons, thorns, or the like.)



And

quote:
So saith Ed. Who now turns to this, from Dagnirion: “Hey, all. I mistakenly asked Krash a query, thinking that he had been the creator of something, but I was mistaken, and pointed me in the proper direction. Srindym, an Elven poison mentioned in one of the vignettes of Elminster in Hell...Can you share more about this, lore-wise, if anything exists. I'm mainly interested in how it's made (as in, the who, what, when's, and so on), and it's prevalence. Going by his description in that ill-fated DRAGON article, "An iridescent, silver liquid, this poison was created by the eladrin millennia ago and often used by less principled individuals of that race against 'lesser' races", it sounds like something the Eldreth Veluuthra would use. Before I make anything up, however, I'd like to go straight to the source.”
Ed replies:



A fiction-related NDA may stop me answering this (relating to lore help I gave an author), so I’ll have to check to see if I can answer you.
I can say this much: very few eladrin or anyone else know how to make srindym, so it’s rare and expensive, and its making involves eladrin blood, moonlight, the casting of multiple spells, and other ingredients; the method of its making (and where any caches of it are kept) has always been a closely-guarded secret.
More when/if I know I can dispense lore freely.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2022 :  05:27:41  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Magical potions become inert in dead-magic fields.

Some unusual elixirs might be delicate or volatile enough to degrade without magic to catalyze their ongoing "unnatural" alchemy. These might require constant magic to sustain their magical reagents or balance their magical synergies, they'd permanently separate (probably gradually, possibly instantly, perhaps violently) into their basic immiscible incompatible chemical components when removed from magical influences. But I think most potions aren't so exotic and would regain their normal magical effects within normal magical areas.

The same would probably be true of magical oils, powders, vapor, and other substances.

And poisons tend to come in all these forms. Some kind of liquid, oil, powder, vapor, or other substance which must somehow be inhaled, ingested, or injected into the victim.

So I'd say that magical poisons become nonmagical substances in magic-dead areas. They might become relatively harmless things like saltwater or plant juice. They might become nonmagical poisons which still contain quite toxic substances like nightshade, curare, cyanide, chlorine, mercury, whatever. And I'd say that majority of these would regain their magical dweomers in magical areas.

It seems to me that most enchantments require a telesma (base item) which already has signature properties related to the desired magical properties. You likely wouldn't enchant essentially harmless things (like water or milk) into magical poisons, you likely would enchant deadly toxins (like giant scorpion venom or green dragon spittle) into magical poisons.

[/Ayrik]
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2022 :  09:27:32  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In a world of magic and spells and walking gods, you have to keep some wiggle room for RW things with a twist. Poisons and diseases are in my view right in that category. While none of the poisons I have written up have been "magical", the one featured in "Cormyr: A Novel" certainly was. In simple terms, anything can be made with magic and created to have resistances and immunities from other magic, including poisons and diseases. I remember Ed making a revelatory comment years ago that an anti-magic shell was still magic and that powerful wizards could create specific spells that trumped said magics (look at the mage Mythanthar's use of a "spell shear" (whatever that is) in "Elminster in Myth Drannor" to defeat a Starym anti-magic trap set for him). So basically. with a proper back story and origin, anything s possible, including "magical" poisons - Talona no doubt very much encourages the creation of these among her faithful.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe

128 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2022 :  11:06:11  Show Profile Send Athreeren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaebanA magic based poison isn't really a poison, right? It uses magic to attack the systems and if it is something with an extended effect, it would be like a spell with a duration on the person.

The poison in Cormyr: a Novel was antimagic, similar to what sleyvas suggests with a magic resistant poison. It definitely was a poison (and magical, as George points out).

Ayrik's message gives me an idea: you could enchant a mundane toxic substance to make it harmless, so you get a very fast magic poison as soon as the magic dissipates: convenient if you need an alibi!
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2022 :  14:35:09  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren

Ayrik's message gives me an idea: you could enchant a mundane toxic substance to make it harmless, so you get a very fast magic poison as soon as the magic dissipates: convenient if you need an alibi!

Good call ... I suppose I didn't think through my final paragraph well enough.

I was thinking of poisons from the perspective of adventurers, warriors, monsters - something you coat onto your weapon to inflict added harm onto your adversaries. You'd be more interested in effect than in appearance.
You wouldn't be too concerned about the sickly green goop dripping off your blade if it gets the job done most efficiently.

I wasn't thinking of poisons from the perspective of spies, assassins, villains - something you need to deliver to your victim without detection. You'd be more interested in subtlety and uncertainty than in effect.
Poisonous milk which looks and tastes sweet might often be preferable to poisonous dragon spittle which looks dangerous and nasty, with an acrid stench which burns the nostrils, which tastes like corrosive bleach.

[/Ayrik]
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2022 :  15:30:23  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

In a world of magic and spells and walking gods, you have to keep some wiggle room for RW things with a twist. Poisons and diseases are in my view right in that category. While none of the poisons I have written up have been "magical", the one featured in "Cormyr: A Novel" certainly was. In simple terms, anything can be made with magic and created to have resistances and immunities from other magic, including poisons and diseases. I remember Ed making a revelatory comment years ago that an anti-magic shell was still magic and that powerful wizards could create specific spells that trumped said magics (look at the mage Mythanthar's use of a "spell shear" (whatever that is) in "Elminster in Myth Drannor" to defeat a Starym anti-magic trap set for him). So basically. with a proper back story and origin, anything s possible, including "magical" poisons - Talona no doubt very much encourages the creation of these among her faithful.

-- George Krashos



Yep, that's why in second edition I had "Sleyvas' magical battery", which was a spell to which you then tied other spells that you then cast immediately afterward. This allowed those spells to work "as if they were on a Uninterruptable Power Supply". It was limiting because you had to plan beforehand what you would tie to it (though some things might be "hung" spells that you bring up as a trigger/contingent type effect). But that's a little off topic.

It still comes down to how do you define something as a "magic poison" versus a necromantic spell, a curse, or even a potion/ointment that triggers a deleterious spell effect. To be clear, I don't mind if some npc CALLS something a "magic poison"... I'm just speaking from a rules effect perspective. It makes sense that some groups may use language in a way that's not as clear as rules... or even deliberately to throw off people to misunderstanding how an effect works so that they might not be able to properly counter it.

In the case of Talona as you describe, I could see her also encouraging her clergy to misuse language in this way as well if it makes people provide her worship in fear. A necromantic spell that makes a body start slowly taking necromantic damage and transmissible via touch or sneezing might be labeled "a magic disease" and be proof from cure disease.... because its a necromantic spell and not a disease. If they went a step further and made it more resistant to various abjuration magics, it becomes an even nastier necromantic spell, but its still not technically a disease. If there is however some means where someone can use their healing and herbalism skill to remove the disease... then maybe it becomes more up for debate of what to call it (spell or disease).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2022 :  15:34:41  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaebanA magic based poison isn't really a poison, right? It uses magic to attack the systems and if it is something with an extended effect, it would be like a spell with a duration on the person.

The poison in Cormyr: a Novel was antimagic, similar to what sleyvas suggests with a magic resistant poison. It definitely was a poison (and magical, as George points out).

Ayrik's message gives me an idea: you could enchant a mundane toxic substance to make it harmless, so you get a very fast magic poison as soon as the magic dissipates: convenient if you need an alibi!



NICE! Yes, that's a good one... I believe there was a spell that technically did something LIKE that previously. It was called delay poison. Now it wasn't exactly like that, because the person had to already be feeling the effects, but it would seem to be something you could definitely do.

I just thought of another one... a transmutation effect that only turns a spice in food or drink into a toxin whenever they are consumed by certain specified races or people (similar rules as magic mouth for how to trigger it for example). Depending how well you can define this "trigger", it could get past things like food tasters, etc...

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 06 Oct 2022 15:45:25
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2022 :  16:17:10  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't believe the poison was ever named or even mentioned again, but I've always liked this exchange from Babylon 5 (Season 3, Point of No Return):

quote:

Refa:
You walked away from the greatest power I have ever seen! And now you expect me to do the same? They are the key to my eventual rise to the throne! Why would I abandon them?

Londo:
Because I have asked you. Because your loyalty to our people should be greater than your ambition. And because I have poisoned your drink.

[Lord Refa looks in astonishment at Londo]:

Londo:
Yes…and it is very interesting poison. It comes in two parts. Both are harmless on their own. But when combined…quite lethal. The first settles into the bloodstream, and the intestinal walls. It stays there for years. Silent…dormant…waiting. When the other half of the poison enters your system the two meet, have a little party in your cardiovascular system…and suddenly, you are quite dead.

Refa:
Why? Why did you do this?

Londo:
To guarantee your cooperation! And because sooner or later, you would do it to me! As we are returning to the old ways, Refa, and poison was always the instrument of choice in the old Republic, being something of a sentimentalist, I got here first.

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TBeholder
Great Reader

2377 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2022 :  04:43:59  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I remember Ed making a revelatory comment years ago that an anti-magic shell was still magic and that powerful wizards could create specific spells that trumped said magics (look at the mage Mythanthar's use of a "spell shear" (whatever that is) in "Elminster in Myth Drannor" to defeat a Starym anti-magic trap set for him).

So does Lesser Cleaving.
Magic arms races are well established in Realms, yes.
For a clear example, Silence - Vocalize - Power Word, Silence.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


It still comes down to how do you define something as a "magic poison" versus a necromantic spell, a curse, or even a potion/ointment that triggers a deleterious spell effect. To be clear, I don't mind if some npc CALLS something a "magic poison"... I'm just speaking from a rules effect perspective.

Mechanically?
A poison is a harmful substance that uses general saving throw adjustments or immunities "vs. poisons", and is not simply a spell discharge in a fancy form (e.g. poison spell; then it uses saving throws as poison, but also can be stopped by measures explicitly specific to spells).
A magical poison could be defined simply as a poison that requires using some form of magic to create.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 14 Oct 2022 04:57:59
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