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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Aug 2022 : 16:42:51
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So, I am currently working on something that involves a city of some size. I have 3 unique individuals thus far: a half-ogre magi, a tiefling that is actually the great-granddaughter of a god, and a new type of lich. I just had an idea for another one but I am concerned that it is too much even though this new character would be fascinating to develop and write up. Should I throw caution to the wind and just work this new idea into the story or should I pocket it for use in something else?
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"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36813 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2022 : 18:08:45
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It's a city. 100 unique individuals wouldn't be too many.
The greater challenge is making sure everything fits. An arctic dwarf in Calimport is going to be a stretch. A 3E-style dragonborn (where they were followers of Bahamut who opted to be reborn in a more draconic body) is going to have issues in Zhentil Keep. And so on.
You also don't want to make too many that are too exotic. You can do a lot of unique stuff without making someone who is going to be visibly different in any crowd you put them in. One NPC I had some fun developing started off as a bard, but then started studying wizardry. In public, the character acts like a bard and says they're a bard, and if they have to do something wizard-y, claims to be using a magical item of some sort.
In my opinion (which could obviously be biased), that's just as unique as my never-really-developed idea of a minotaur fighter-mage who works as a bodyguard.
I enjoyed the Rogue Dragon books, but the idea of an avariel, a song dragon, an arctic dwarf, and a half-golem, all in one group, just didn't work for me. It almost sounds like the start of a joke -- "An avariel, a song dragon, and a half-golem walk into a tavern..."
That's the kind of thing you want to avoid, though going city-sized makes that a lot easier. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2434 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2022 : 14:20:50
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As a rule of thumb, the "Custom Crossbreed" characters are almost as bad as "Raised by Chipmunks" characters.
Both are on every Mary Sue test as common red flags, because it's a lazy "uniqueness".
It was like this pretty much always. See Ed's horror stories.
As a corollary ... it's not unequivocally always bad, but it's bad when done in a sloppy way.
A random half-jann drow in Heartlands with emo baggage? This would probably be a super-groaner.
A Sshamathan branch House that consists of the jann-blooded drow, who learn fluid Jannti from childhood and specialize on dealing with genies and Inner Planes in general and have connections in Zakhara? That could work. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6362 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36813 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2022 : 16:25:41
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Also, apply what I think of as the Madcoil Test, inspired by a character from ElfQuest: Does the backstory require a wildly improbable event? Does it require more than one?
If it's more than one, scrap the backstory and start over. You may need to scrap the entire concept as unworkable.
If it's just one, that may still be a problem. It's likely the backstory could benefit from revising the event to something less unlikely.
To explain Madcoil... Madcoil had the head, chest, and forelegs of a panther, and the rest of its body was a giant snake. Conceptually and visually, it was cool.
But the backstory... The story was that centuries (or millennia) before, an elf walking through the woods tried to use magic to create a fire. The magic failed, but remained there, dormant. Fast-forward to closer to the present, and there's a panther and a big snake fighting, for reasons. The snake is wrapped around the panther, and the two roll into that spot where the dormant magic was -- which is then conveniently struck by lightning. (Because, you know, lighting ALWAYS strikes the ground directly, instead of the tree right next to the ground, when it strikes in a forest  )
The lightning and the magic combined to fuse the two creatures into one. And of course this fusion resulted in a viable form, instead of something like a furry snake with legs sticking out at odd angles. AND the end result was more intelligent than both of the component creatures combined. AND it had a telepathic ability that neither creature had, and that no other creature on the world, aside from elves, possessed. AND it was evil.
That backstory is horrible, to the point I sometimes wonder how it even got published. And thus, I find it a good comparison when looking at other backstories.
One wild coincidence can work, but it's better to avoid them if at all possible. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Aug 2022 16:27:34 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6362 Posts |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2022 : 17:06:09
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
As a rule of thumb, the "Custom Crossbreed" characters are almost as bad as "Raised by Chipmunks" characters.
Both are on every Mary Sue test as common red flags, because it's a lazy "uniqueness".
It was like this pretty much always. See Ed's horror stories.
As a corollary ... it's not unequivocally always bad, but it's bad when done in a sloppy way.
A random half-jann drow in Heartlands with emo baggage? This would probably be a super-groaner.
A Sshamathan branch House that consists of the jann-blooded drow, who learn fluid Jannti from childhood and specialize on dealing with genies and Inner Planes in general and have connections in Zakhara? That could work.
Yeah, these are all side characters and not the focus of anything, really. Coming from published lore, I have an artifact wielder in the mix as well as that lich. I just decided to take the lich in a different direction. The tiefling was actually created using the tiefling customization tables in the Planescape book so she isn't a rule breaker. I used dice to see what the half-ogre mage got from his dad (50% chance) so he didn't get everything and he has a developed backstory (one tidbit of that backstory is that he was introduced to magic by finding a book left for him by Magister Noumea). POSP had a bunch of humanoids listed for use as player characters so I actually used those as a guide and wrote up a similar entry for a half-ogre mage.
As for the original reason for my question, I have decided to shelve that one. It requires a significant amount of backstory and is thus out of scope for this particular city. I have something else in mind now for him (or her) that fits better into another region's history.
Finally, I do have a drow from Sshamath that will be detailed fully if I ever write up anything about Shamath or Highmoon. You see, he and his family are part of a sect of Eilistraee worshippers working out of Sshamath. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36813 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2022 : 17:27:49
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| Sshamath and Eryndlyn are the best drow cities, in my opinion -- so much more potential for drow characters there, compared to Menzoberranzan. The drow NPC I've invested the most time and effort in is from Eryndlyn, because that city suits his backstory much better than any other. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2434 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2022 : 16:57:13
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Yeah, these are all side characters and not the focus of anything, really. Coming from published lore, I have an artifact wielder in the mix as well as that lich. I just decided to take the lich in a different direction. The tiefling was actually created using the tiefling customization tables in the Planescape book so she isn't a rule breaker. I used dice to see what the half-ogre mage got from his dad (50% chance) so he didn't get everything and he has a developed backstory (one tidbit of that backstory is that he was introduced to magic by finding a book left for him by Magister Noumea).
This only escalates the coincidences.
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POSP had a bunch of humanoids listed for use as player characters so I actually used those as a guide and wrote up a similar entry for a half-ogre mage.
See, the entire problem is the context. I mean, a character may well make sense somewhere, but it does not follow that same character makes sense in every given place.
In the drow example, the obvious point is that there are two drow cities where a mage-merchant with adamantine awl stuck in his or her behind and inclination for plane-hopping makes a lot more sense than usual.
Likewise, Ravens Bluff has its own unusual circumstances, which ultimately follow from its history and too many gates. Thus they know the gates will open one by one, and act accordingly, etc. For example, this gives that triton spy a very good reason to stick around, given their attitude about gates down in Seros.
And so on.
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As for the original reason for my question, I have decided to shelve that one. It requires a significant amount of backstory and is thus out of scope for this particular city. I have something else in mind now for him (or her) that fits better into another region's history.
Well, the obvious questions are always "what does this character want?", and following that, "why seek it here?"
quote:
a sect of Eilistraee worshippers working out of Sshamath.
After some consideration... I wonder what the moondancers would even do there of all places?
The locals who want to meet new and interesting creatures in relaxed enough circumstances that screaming and swinging sharp objects are not involved won't have problems with that. That... unique architecture of Lukhorn's Gullet alone is good evidence.
The locals who consider maybe living aboveground would not have much problems with that, either. Even better, they may try and see how it is, there are no irreversible steps or loss of status involved. Join a caravan, be reminded to stay cautious, see the surface. If they are fine with this, maybe as the next step live in a human town disguised for a while (Iriaebor's architecture together with its location always made me wonder, for one).
The Eilistraee worshipers would still need a mini-pilgrimage every time they want to participate in a proper "butt-neckid moonlit dance", but what exactly would be their reason to return?
If they just don't feel well on the surface, there's Promenade. Where they'd live with sisters and brothers in faith, do something useful and learn from the great champion of their goddess. Much better than a place that doesn't give a damn about their convictions and only tolerates them as mostly-harmless weirdos. And it's not like such trifles would be a big secret in Sshamath. This suggests more rotating representatives than permanent residence. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 22 Aug 2022 17:14:34 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2022 : 21:29:21
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To save space, I am not going to quote all that. Plus, I am terrible at trying to break up a quote.
I don't know if you are referring to the lich and the artifact wielder but they were put there by Ed and an author of a FR novel. I included them so as not to contradict canon.
If you are referring to the tiefling, she is there for a couple reasons. The first is that Iriaebor is NOT Proskur. Proskur is a "den of evil" and as a good person, she didn't want to stay there. The second is that Iriaebor has recently gained a reputation as a place to be for casters since a good-aligned wizarding organization was founded. The tiefling is CG so that left Cormyr out of the picture because of its "restrictive" reputation.
As for the half-ogre mage, being influenced by Noumea isn't a coincidence when there are likely hundreds of others also influence by her. In the 2e Secrets of the Magister, it was stated that what Noumea really wants to do is teach new arcane casters. If that was her goal, how could including that in a character's background from the Sword Coast (which is specifically mentions in SotM) be a bad thing? Also, the half-ogre mage was drawn to the city by the same reputation as the tiefling (he was just wondering around, lost in a sea of grief after the death of his mother when he heard about Iriaebor's wizard organization).
The new idea was moved partially for what you mentioned. There is a better location for that new character to be.
As for Eilistraeens being in Shamath, why wouldn't they be? It is perfect for their goals. Here is a city not run by the Church of Loth with a lot of drow coming and going and there is no faerzress to interfere with teleporting. It is the perfect location for the Church of Eilistraee to secretly prepare drow for living on the surface and then teleport them there with no one the wiser (in essence, the destination for a redeemed drow underground railroad). As for those moonlit dances, they ARE only a teleport away.
Edit: Reworded to be clearer. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 23 Aug 2022 15:48:29 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4690 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2022 : 00:36:53
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As for an Eilistraee base of operations in the city, it can make some sense.
Clearly not Lolth dominated so can be more open about their location and identity. As a mage ruled city that has less respect for divine spell casters it makes the location less then best.
There though indeed is a good place for a base to aid rescue efforts from more Lolth dominated areas.
Also as far as it goes there could be family, political or trading connections to the city as well.
I could see it possible that a few generations of Eilistraee followers have lived in the city, likely there are families long lived in other cities as well. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
286 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2022 : 22:18:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I try to make everyone unique. That doesnt mean they have to be a lich or a dragonborn or even be able to read minds or turn invisible as a wild talent. Instead i try and focus on the story of the individual and try and weave them into the surroundings.
I'm with Wooly though, you make as many unique individuals as you can, it will never be enough. Although, saying that i did find the City of Splendors boxed set had a few too many people to keep track of.
Wouldn't creating a party with ANY variety of Lich mean that you would have to run an entirely Epic Party? Just wondering! |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2434 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2022 : 02:51:37
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
If you are referring to the tiefling, she is there for a couple reasons. The first is that Iriaebor is NOT Proskur. Proskur is a "den of evil" and as a good person, she didn't want to stay there. The second is that Iriaebor has recently gained a reputation as a place to be for casters since a good-aligned wizarding organization was founded. The tiefling is CG so that left Cormyr out of the picture because of its "restrictive" reputation.
Good point. But for "well meaning wizards" there are more places to go, starting with Elve... Elversult, and from Waterdeep to Silverymoon to Impiltur (sword-and-wand, paladins and wizards). It looks like the character in question is less than enthusiastic not only about Cormyr, but about Harpers. This narrows down the sources and choices somewhat. So, the main source are caravans moving between Sword Coast and various shores of Falling Stars.
But also, tiefling? There are more inconveniences. I guess, this could increase caution toward Silverymoon, and Impiltur is straight out. But the places with trade that would appear to be the least tiefling-unfriendly are:
1. Ravens Bluff, with all its weirdos and not giving much of a damn even about drow and gargoyles as long as they behave well and
2. Tethyr - they have an entire knightly order named after some ogre paladin, right?
quote:
As for Eilistraeens being in Shamath, why wouldn't they be? It is perfect for their goals. Here is a city not run by the Church of Loth with a lot of drow coming and going and there is no faerzress to interfere with teleporting.
Teleporting is prohibited, and the whole place is heavily warded.
But other than this... what would they achieve?
The locals have no reason for resentment against Lolthites in power, the problem does not exist there.
Same deal with moving to the surface: nobody holds them on a leash, caravans come and go all the time. Most just don't want to.
Meeting and converting the drow from other cities, sure. But running away to Sshamath is not easy, in that the spider-loving ladies also know it as a heretical place. Escaping to merchants is likely to be more of a thing than through them somewhere specific. So, there cannot be many (and most of those would not want it, either), other than the merchants. Who generally don't care - they have heard that sermon already (and seen those dream visions), and shrugged.
Let's add working the network of sympathizers and gathering information via caravans.
quote:
It is the perfect location for the Church of Eilistraee to secretly prepare drow for living on the surface
Since a big city is naturally more expensive to live in, not a perfect place to just hang out and train.
Secrecy (beside protecting their contacts) is pointless. Their presence is legitimate, hiding would only hinder themselves, and the Lolthites will soon find out anyway.
All in all, it makes sense to maintain presence, but there does not seem to be much work at any given time. This adds up to small shrine/"embassy"/minor business with just enough of staff that the Lolthite neighbors would not be too tempted. For everything else, there are caravans to Skullport with its Promenade and maybe other friendly places. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 25 Aug 2022 11:34:09 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2022 : 05:28:03
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Elversult doesn't have a publicly known wizard's organization. Iriaebor does (it was mentioned in 3e Magic of Faerun so it is canon that there is one in Iriaebor... even if the information given for it is completely wrong). And while she is TECHNICALLY a tiefling (ancestor from one of the lower planes), she is the great-granddaughter of a god and thus looks very human. Also, Iriaebor is much closer to Proskur.
Drizzt Do'Urdens Guide to the Underdark mentions this on page 87:
"Despite its role as an Underdark trading center, Sshamath is surprisingly hard to reach from the surface. While a few routes shorter than hundreds of miles connect Sshamath to the surface, the most common way to reach the city from the surface is teleportation magic, a consequence of the complete absence of faerzress near Sshamath. However, teleport requires the wizard to either visit the target location or scry it first. The first restraint is self-limiting, while the second is made difficult by the near total lack of information on the surface as to even the general location of the city. In addition, teleportation restricts the volume of trade goods that can be ferried into or out of the city. As a result, Sshamath has very little commerce with the Realms Above."
While Lolthites may watch things coming and going from Sshamath, hiding the redeemed as simply another trader in a well-guarded trade caravan would be a fairly safe way to get them in there. And keeping stuff as quiet as possible would be a good idea since the Church of Lolth has their own agents who would love to disrupt anything the Eilistraeens are doing.
The Church of Eilistraee may not care about the expense of being there since it is supporting a core tenant of their faith and there is nothing that says that they can't be bringing stuff back from the surface as trade items to help pay expenses. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2022 : 05:53:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You also don't want to make too many that are too exotic.
Yes, thank you. It has been remarked that turning every watering hole into a Mos Eisely cantina is a surefire way to transform the exotic into the mundane. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2434 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2022 : 14:29:27
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quote:
" the most common way to reach the city from the surface is teleportation magic,
...
However, teleport requires the wizard to either visit the target location or scry it first. The first restraint is self-limiting ... In addition, teleportation restricts the volume of trade goods that can be ferried into or out of the city. As a result, Sshamath has very little commerce with the Realms Above."
That's teleporting into the entrance cavern above the city. Then everyone has to enter on legs and walk down Z'orr'bauth - not very sneaky (which obviously is the entire point).
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
hiding the redeemed as simply another trader in a well-guarded trade caravan would be a fairly safe way to get them in there.
It's just that joining the merchant caravan (permanently or until a less-dangerous stop) is the most obvious route anyone interested in getting out of a city quietly would take, with or without extra complications. So yes, disguises and other clandestine games if anybody is expected to look for whoever is being extracted. Others may simply join the merchants for a while.
The long-term game, however, is that trade houses must be very cautious, in that even if they aren't caught red-handed they don't want to be branded "suspected heretics" (especially those who actually are less spider-loving than is considered acceptable in the Lolthite cities).
quote:
The Church of Eilistraee may not care about the expense of being there since it is supporting a core tenant of their faith and there is nothing that says that they can't be bringing stuff back from the surface as trade items to help pay expenses.
They cannot "not care", because they are the ones who have to pay it.
So, they would combine it with a minor legitimate business. Guarding caravans on particular routes, niche trade, etc. Or semi-official trade embassy for Promenade. BTW, was the source of Undermountain Alurlyath explicitly mentioned anywhere? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2022 : 07:07:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's a city. 100 unique individuals wouldn't be too many.
The greater challenge is making sure everything fits. An arctic dwarf in Calimport is going to be a stretch. A 3E-style dragonborn (where they were followers of Bahamut who opted to be reborn in a more draconic body) is going to have issues in Zhentil Keep. And so on.
I agree. Most of my NPCs in Raven's Bluff are human. The thing is to have different personalities, intelligence levels, etc between the characters. The Spymaster for the Knights of the Hawk is a very different personality compared to the old lady on Ladyrock who is yet different from "master of the party" Lord Balathorp. Doing different voices and speech patterns helps greatly. The important bit is that your players are able to remember and distinguish between the different NPCs. You don't want to introduce too many at one time, but over the course of multiple adventures, keep adding NPCs as makes sense and soon enough your city will be populated. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2022 : 15:35:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's a city. 100 unique individuals wouldn't be too many.
The greater challenge is making sure everything fits. An arctic dwarf in Calimport is going to be a stretch. A 3E-style dragonborn (where they were followers of Bahamut who opted to be reborn in a more draconic body) is going to have issues in Zhentil Keep. And so on.
I agree. Most of my NPCs in Raven's Bluff are human. The thing is to have different personalities, intelligence levels, etc between the characters. The Spymaster for the Knights of the Hawk is a very different personality compared to the old lady on Ladyrock who is yet different from "master of the party" Lord Balathorp. Doing different voices and speech patterns helps greatly. The important bit is that your players are able to remember and distinguish between the different NPCs. You don't want to introduce too many at one time, but over the course of multiple adventures, keep adding NPCs as makes sense and soon enough your city will be populated.
I was speaking more towards unique racial make up. I agree on making regular people distinctive. For example:
Steirrus Veclan, Lord Chamberlain of Iriaebor (LG hm m7): Iriaebor’s Lord Chamberlain is easy to pick out of a crowd: he is extremely tall (6’7”) and thin with grey hair that is kept (via magic) in a very distinctive upswept hairstyle that adds another 5 inches so that he appears to be 7 feet tall. He has bright green eyes and very expressive grey eyebrows that gives everyone a better indication of his mood than the rest of his face. He also has such a good memory that he doesn’t forget anything and feels that he doesn’t need to write anything down. That attitude has driven his Master Clerk to distraction to where he continually presses the Lord Chamberlain to at least dictate the next day’s schedule at the end of each day.
Steirrus is an old friend of Bron’s and had been appointed as Iriaebor’s Lord Chamberlain immediately after Bron was made High Lord of Iriaebor. He was also instrumental, along with the head of the Black Blades, in getting Bron’s wife and baby daughter out of Iriaebor during the Zhentarim takeover. If he didn’t have it before, Steirrus had certainly earned Bron’s complete trust that day.
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"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Unique characters: How many is too many?
