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portose_sharpe
Seeker

Ireland
74 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2022 :  10:46:10  Show Profile Send portose_sharpe a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hello.

So I have a player in my game was a church inquisitor of tyr. He has since changed gods to hoar. He is a 10th in the class. My question is on the special requirements. Member of a lawful good church. Which he no longer is. Should he still have access to his class ?

Class details below. Plus rule edition is 3.5.



The church inquisitor uncovers taint within the church and cuts it away.
Requirements
Alignment: Lawful good or lawful neutral
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks , Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks , Spellcraft 4 ranks
Base Save Bonus: Will +3.
Spells: Able to cast zone of truth as a divine spell.
Special: Must be a member of a lawful good church or religious order, and must have already uncovered some corruption within that organization.

Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2022 :  12:58:26  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The character should lose access to the spell list and other divine enhancements in my opinion.

I could not find rules for a fallen church inquisitor, however the character also would be fallen follower of Try in some divine class that would also effect the character. Which might be atoned for.

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"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2022 :  15:27:56  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Looking at this from a campaign perspective instead of through the game rules and applying previous precedent, here are a few points:

A priest leaving their god is a BIG change. Depending on the initiating transgression, they are going to get omens and a partial loss of spell access as hints that they need to atone for what they did.

If the transgression continues, the Church of the old god is going to excommunicate the priest. For lay followers, that won't mean too much but for a priest, that will mean they are no longer a priest. They will become a fighter (the default class). Previous precedent has that at a loss of 2 character levels so that 10th level priest would become an 8th level fighter. It is up to you to decide if class skills/feats are immediately gained of if they only get to select them after gaining a level as a fighter. In either case, they should keep their current hp total.

If the person wants to be a priest of the new god, they are going to have to show the Church of the new god they are going to of their sincerity in their conversion (at least a quest or two). There is going to have to be some kind of training in the new god's tenants before they even think of ordaining them into the new faith (make him a priest again). It is up to you how much of their old priest levels they get to keep in that case. I would suggest at least a few.

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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
948 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2022 :  18:54:00  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So you could tweak the prereq easily enough and it would work fine for Hoar. That said, I agree, there should be some sort of acknowledgement that he had abandoned Tyr (which Tyr would not like at all) for Hoar and how deific politics plays into that and the characters access to the spells and other divine powers. I'd probably have a game session or two where this plays out.
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
875 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2022 :  21:17:07  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would like to clarify the point TheIriaeban made about converting to fighter class. That is true in 2E. In 3.5E, you don't get d10 hit points, tower shield proficiencies, martial weapon proficiencies and definitely not the bonus feats. Your spells,spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities are gone until you prove yourself to the Church of Hoar.
Edit: changed gighter to fighter

Edited by - Delnyn on 09 Aug 2022 21:18:14
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36773 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2022 :  22:48:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

So you could tweak the prereq easily enough and it would work fine for Hoar. That said, I agree, there should be some sort of acknowledgement that he had abandoned Tyr (which Tyr would not like at all) for Hoar and how deific politics plays into that and the characters access to the spells and other divine powers. I'd probably have a game session or two where this plays out.



This is what I'd do.

Using a mix-match of old rules and ideas... I'd have the character retain all the physical abilities of the priest class, but lose the spiritual ones. So he's still able to swing a mace just as handily, but he's not healing anyone or turning anything.

For his new church, he'd have to do something akin to atoning -- because they're going to want to make sure his conversion is genuine.

Maybe after atoning, he gets the divine abilities of a third-level priest (this is inspired by the old idea of clerics being able to get 1st and 2nd level spells, even when cut off from their deities).

From there, I'd put him on some sort of advanced leveling track -- take the existing XP tables, and cut them down considerably. You want him to earn the clerical abilities, but you don't want to make it too painful. As he gains enough XP to go from 3rd to 4th to 5th, etc, you give him the divine abilities associated with that level. Once he's gotten to 10th on that advanced table, then he's back to where he would have been had he not converted.

Or, if you want to make it simpler, just knock him down a level or two and make him re-earn the levels. I'm not sure I'd go that route, but it's an easier one.

Oh, and blacklist him amongst Tyr's clergy. They are not going to like him!

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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
875 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2022 :  23:06:46  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And Tyr's church would confiscate all wealth and items that come from their largess. As an ex-10th level church Inquisitor, the blacklist comes with an anathema ritual that cannot be dispelled by less than epic magic or personal divine intervention by Hoar. Whether Hoar wants smoke with Tyr is of course a vastly different story. Personally I think Hoar won't dare throw hands with Tyr. So I scratch out divine intervention by Hoar.Wooly was being polite about the blacklisting.
Edit: I am aware of the SRD 8th level spell anathema. My reasoning is more fluff level than crunch. To reach max level in a divine prestige class such as church inquisitor earns you personal attention from the deity's immediate servants, if not from the deity personally. Therefore, there is no saving throw for the ex-inquisitor to resist anathema. Please remember to emphasize the prestige in divine prestige classes. The offense is that much greater than gor clerics or other divine core classes.

Edited by - Delnyn on 09 Aug 2022 23:27:04
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe

USA
294 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2022 :  02:22:46  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes.

First off, if you can be a NG Church Inquisitor it does makes sense that NG churches and organizations would ALSO have inquisitors. Really, the text should say that....

Second, Complete Divine plenty of print that says "Each DM can change and adapt prestige classes however they like". So making a Neutral Good Church Inquisitor is possible, right there in the rules.

Third, even if you ignore all the above....you could just let the character exist as a "special exception" to the rules. Maybe Hoar has some special destiny for the character......

Lastly, you could....by the grace of Hoar, allow the player to rebuild their character
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

873 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2022 :  16:31:10  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
While I agree that a priest switching faith needs to be a big thing in any campaign, in this particular case there may be some wiggle room to justify a non-complete obliteration of the divine link between the cleric and Tyr (this is not a "Triple Betrayer"-shenanigan situation).

Faiths & Pantheons mentions that Hoar is in the middle of a tug-o-war between two greater powers, Shar and Tyr. If the player character gets made into a pawn by Tyr (to root out Sharran influence from the church of Hoar and subtly stir it towards brotherhood with the Tyrran faith), then I can see a way for the god to be lenient on this and not completely nuke the character's divine abilities. Of course Tyr has to "let him go" to allow the character to fully integrate into Hoar's church, but in my mind that's different and less traumatic than basically turning a 10th level cleric into a warrior (the NPC class) and leaving him to swim with the sharks.

Of course the actual mortal church of Tyr largely ignores this and they will still hate/blacklist the player character.

Edited by - Demzer on 10 Aug 2022 17:01:55
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