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Hymn
Senior Scribe
Sweden
514 Posts |
 Posted - 16 May 2004 : 03:13:22
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Hello I was wondering if any one of my fellow scribes has a copy of "The Shadow Stone" by Richard Baker. To bad Mr. Baker isn't answering on this forum  or this might have been resolved a lot quicker.
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Sauro moki kara ochiro - Even monkeys falls from trees.
The path that leads to truth is littered with the bodies of the ignorant - Miyamoto Musashi |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 04:17:04
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Yeah, I've got a copy. What you after?
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Hymn
Senior Scribe
Sweden
514 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 04:24:35
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*cough* stuff that hint's or concerns anything to do with The Imaskari I have this thing for them |
Sauro moki kara ochiro - Even monkeys falls from trees.
The path that leads to truth is littered with the bodies of the ignorant - Miyamoto Musashi |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 05:56:02
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I've got it too, but in order to answer that one, I'd have to read it all again.  I'm a bit limited on my time, unfortunately. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Hymn
Senior Scribe
Sweden
514 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 12:58:11
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| Lol, I know it's a wee bit much, since it has stuff in different places. |
Sauro moki kara ochiro - Even monkeys falls from trees.
The path that leads to truth is littered with the bodies of the ignorant - Miyamoto Musashi |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 13:15:04
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| And just in that, you know more than I do. I can't even remember any mentions of the Imaskari at all, much less what they were. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Hymn
Senior Scribe
Sweden
514 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 14:26:30
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Well the it's kind of blurry hints (or so I think of the excerpts made from the book I have seen) Cant even find a copy with it's ISBN number
Here is one as an example:
"The old Imaskari sorcerers used knowledge they'd learned from creatures of immortal evil to record their spells. They weren't priests, really - they didn't draw their magic directly from the dark powers they severed. They only used what they'd been taught to work their own sorcery" - Page 286 "The Shadow Stone" by Richard Baker.
I wish I could get my hands on it would make it so much easier *sigh* |
Sauro moki kara ochiro - Even monkeys falls from trees.
The path that leads to truth is littered with the bodies of the ignorant - Miyamoto Musashi |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 14:36:17
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| Amazon has it listed as ten copies available used. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Hymn
Senior Scribe
Sweden
514 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 14:48:01
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| Sadly I live in Sweden, they don't ship overseas. |
Sauro moki kara ochiro - Even monkeys falls from trees.
The path that leads to truth is littered with the bodies of the ignorant - Miyamoto Musashi |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 14:53:59
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| Yes, but used copies are shipped by the owner; Amazon just provides space online for them to show what they have for sale. Maybe you could find someone who would ship it that far? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Hymn
Senior Scribe
Sweden
514 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 14:58:36
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| ah, found it in my local bookshop, don't know why I didn' look there to begin with Must be that is to close |
Sauro moki kara ochiro - Even monkeys falls from trees.
The path that leads to truth is littered with the bodies of the ignorant - Miyamoto Musashi |
Edited by - Hymn on 16 May 2004 15:01:02 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 15:04:48
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| Well, there you go then. Happy reading. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Hymn
Senior Scribe
Sweden
514 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 15:06:26
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| Sure will do, to bad it's sunday or it had allready been on its way. |
Sauro moki kara ochiro - Even monkeys falls from trees.
The path that leads to truth is littered with the bodies of the ignorant - Miyamoto Musashi |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 18:06:52
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| I've got the book, but it's been a couple years since I read it.... It simply failed to grab me. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Hymn
Senior Scribe
Sweden
514 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 20:33:24
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| So have I heard. But I thought I would give it a chance at least |
Sauro moki kara ochiro - Even monkeys falls from trees.
The path that leads to truth is littered with the bodies of the ignorant - Miyamoto Musashi |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2004 : 02:40:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Hymn
So have I heard. But I thought I would give it a chance at least
*shrugs* It's worth a shot, at least. To each his own, and all that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2004 : 05:58:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've got the book, but it's been a couple years since I read it.... It simply failed to grab me.
Ditto. Probably it has to do with the fact that it was originally intended for the Birthright setting and got shoehorned into FR. The whole book felt... unnatural, like it doesn't belong to FR, and read more like generic fantasy than anything. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2004 : 07:50:12
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Hmm. Hadn't known about that. I didn't think it was too bad, but I was pure-novels in those days -- I had no idea about the place it was happening in, so I just figured any odd feel was just the author working in a region new to me.
Again, I didn't think it was too bad. Perhaps a bit generic, yes, and the ending wasn't a page-turner. But I wouldn't shoot it down completely. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2004 : 09:59:00
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Charming! I asked opinions of this novel not too long ago and was told it was a very good read. I since started it and found the beginning to be quite well done. Its dragging on a little bit now though and I cant see which path its likely to take (which is probably a positive point).
I, too, get that 'detached from the Realms' type of feeling though. What I will say, is that it does very well to describe and explain the mechanics of the Weave and spellcasting. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2004 : 10:32:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've got the book, but it's been a couple years since I read it.... It simply failed to grab me.
Ditto. Probably it has to do with the fact that it was originally intended for the Birthright setting and got shoehorned into FR. The whole book felt... unnatural, like it doesn't belong to FR, and read more like generic fantasy than anything.
Here's a question I asked Rich about the Shadow Stone a while back...
Click here:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1568223&highlight=shadow stone#post1568223
Edit: Cntrl-F + "Shadow Stone" once you get there, as this link seems to refuse sending people directly to the post... |
Edited by - Purple Dragon Knight on 17 May 2004 10:36:14 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2004 : 10:45:16
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| It's that space you placed in the URL. Try this instead. Though if it's the post I think it's supposed to be, you need to scroll up slightly to see it. It seems to point to the one right under it instead. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2004 : 20:34:13
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| Rad I thot the same thing about the book.It did well in explaining The Weave and spellcasting mechainics |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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Hymn
Senior Scribe
Sweden
514 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2004 : 03:32:17
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| Hmm, sounds like the book I am after and yet not. Will see later today or tomorrow when I get it. |
Sauro moki kara ochiro - Even monkeys falls from trees.
The path that leads to truth is littered with the bodies of the ignorant - Miyamoto Musashi |
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OrnluTheWolf
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 01:35:44
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I was captivated by The Shadow Stone a few months back, but unfortunatly lost the book before I could read the last 30 pages or so. (I was actually reading during a boring economics class and left the book in the room by mistake, never to see it again.) While the book was excelent in its language and imagry, its descriptions of how shadow magic works didn't quite seem to line up with the other texts I've read on the subject (which, sadly, only include Return of the Archwizards and the FRCS). This incongruency was easily overlooked, however, and so I enjoyed the book right up until I lost it.
Back to the matter at hand, the book basicly described the Imaraski as an ancient civilization that was dark and mysterious, with magic even more powerful that the Netherese, but beyond that I don't remember much. I don't believe it gave any super-specific descriptions of their magic, but (if I remember right) the texts the main character (whose name I have forgotten) uses to increase his shadow magic ability and even the novel's villian are both Imaraski.
Searching for the book on the internet rewarded me with this site:
http://www.wizards.com/catalog/product.asp?tsr08587
and also http://fantasticadaily.com/book_review.php?bID=108
It's amazing what you can find when you simply type in "The Shadow Stone" into google. Anyway, check on ebay ocasionally for it. They usually have a good assortment of FR books. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 13:06:17
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| Well, even if the shadow magic described in the book uses the Shadow Weave (since you can have normal shadow magic with the regular Weave), this was before third edition Realms, which laid out the rules for Shar's Weave. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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OrnluTheWolf
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 19:15:30
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| Bookwrym, I'm not familiar with Shar's weave. I would assume that is what is heavily referenced in The Return of the Archwizards, but other that that (and The Shadow Stone), the only shadow weave material I've read was in the FRCS. Will you explain Shar's Weave? |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 02:38:09
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Shadow magic has always been a source of literary excitement for FR novelists. We have the shadow magic shown in "Crypt of the Shadowking" and its sequel, the shadow magic shown in Rich Baker's transplanted Birthright novel "The Shadow Stone" and the shadow magic in the "Return of the Archwizards" trilogy by Troy 'RSE' Denning.
FRCS 'canonised' the concept of the shadow weave - an anti-weave created by the goddess Shar in direct opposition to Mystra. This has created much scholarly (and not so scholarly) debate about when the shadow weave was created, who was aware of it, how is it used, etc. The shadow weave concept, whilst IMHO not a bad one, shows the difficulty in retro-fitting large-scale changes to fundamental aspects of a long established campaign world - especially one as detailed as the Realms.
Be that as it may, we have the shadow weave now - we have to live with it. I have had a few random thoughts as to the whys and wherefores of the shadow weave. Essentially I've tried to link established FR lore with the "new" existence of this phenomenon. Basically, I think Shar took advantage of the destruction of Mystryl and the disruption to the weave brought about by Karsus to create the shadow weave. This gives a dating of after -339DR for its formation which is at odds with "The Shadow Stone" and its idea that Imaskar used shadow weave or shadow magic.
The Imaskari were known as the Artificers and rabidly anti-deities. This is clear from other FR sources. Hence it is hard to understand how they would have embraced the shadow weave/magic given its divine origins. My thoughts are that only a very few, renegade Imaskari led by Madryoch the Ebon Flame (the Imaskari from "The Shadow Stone") were granted access to shadow magic via a mini-version of the shadow weave, a prototype if you will, centered on the shadow stone itself and created by Shar for this purpose.
When she realised that shadow magic could work (and she could grant access to it without Mystryl's approval), she went ahead and waited for the right time to create the true shadow weave, which she did following the destruction of Mystryl.
So why wasn't shadow weave/shadow magic more prevalent following the fall of Netheril? Simply, if we look at Mystra's actions following the fall of her predecessor, she becomes a deity that is extremely concerned about the uses, abuses and manipulations of the weave and magic. She sponsors Azuth to godhood, creates the office of Magister, begins creating a bunch of Chosen (many, many more than have been described in extant realmslore - see the last chapters of "The Temptation of Elminster" for a glimpse of Chosen over the centuries) and creates her Shadowstaves, Puirsuivant Arcanes and Weavespinners (all detailed in "Secrets of the Magister") They are her traffic cops. It is easy to see how these forces would have focused on defying Shar and her minions at every turn and thwarting all attempts to get the shadow weave and the means of accessing it into the general knowledge of the Torilian spellcasting community. Call it an underground war between two rival factions over "turf".
The Time of Troubles and the Avatar Crisis, with the fall of Mystra and her replacement by the inexperienced Mystra II, was just the opportunity Shar needed. She was the same old Shar, had her minions and plans in place, and used the time and space afforded to her by Mystra II having to "find her feet" as goddess of magic to promote the shadow weave and shadow weave casting among spellcasters of the Realms and set into motion the events that would return Shade to Faerun.
At the moment, Mystra II is in damage control and playing catch-up. The shadow weave is out of the bag and now she has to live with it whilst still protecting and supporting normal weave casting and casters. It's likely that in due course a stalemate will be established with neither side gaining ground against the other as they co-exist, albeit uncomfortably. Shar also may find that being the controller of the Shadow Weave, now that it is being accessed more and more, is not all that it's cracked up to be. It may require a greater amount of her divine essence and time to monitor and maintain it, placing significant demands on her divinity and perhaps leaving her vulnerable to other members of the pantheon who have designs on other aspects of her portfolio (a rejuvenated Lolth - if she ever gets rejuvenated - might be looking to steal her Underdark portfolio, Mask might go for darkness and unrevealed secrets, etc.). It looks like the shadow weave may have yet more far-reaching ramifications ... not all of them good for Shar.
Thanks for being patient with my musings.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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OrnluTheWolf
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 23:37:32
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Got a couple of questions now.....
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The shadow weave is out of the bag and now she has to live with it whilst still protecting and supporting normal weave casting and casters. It's likely that in due course a stalemate will be established with neither side gaining ground against the other as they co-exist, albeit uncomfortably.
In other words, some sort of light/dark equilibrium?
As Shar gains followers (and users of her dark or anti- weave), she will gain power. Do you think she will eventually be equal in power to Mystra?
quote:
So why wasn't shadow weave/shadow magic more prevalent following the fall of Netheril? Simply, if we look at Mystra's actions following the fall of her predecessor, she becomes a deity that is extremely concerned about the uses, abuses and manipulations of the weave and magic.
So, if the Netherese didn't use much Shadow magic because of Mystra's power/active-involvement, why are they such powerful shadow mages when Shade returns?
Finally, what about the "shadow self" or dark alter-ego described in "Return of the Warchwizards? |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 09:39:27
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quote:
Originally posted by OrnluTheWolf
Got a couple of questions now.....
In other words, some sort of light/dark equilibrium?
As Shar gains followers (and users of her dark or anti- weave), she will gain power. Do you think she will eventually be equal in power to Mystra?
Firstly, these are my thoughts re Mystra, Shar and the shadow weave. I wouldn't take them as 'canon'. Yes, I see Shar gaining some power but not to get her to the level of challenging Mystra's power level. Weave casting is by far the most prevalent form of magic use in Toril. Only a small minority use the shadow weave. Whilst that number may grow, it may be stymied by the fact that Shar and the shadow weave are inextricably linked - and not just anyone wants to end up being a part of what Shar is all about. Read "Temptation of Elminster" and "Silverfall" by Ed Greenwood to see just how Shar's church operates.
quote:
So, if the Netherese didn't use much Shadow magic because of Mystra's power/active-involvement, why are they such powerful shadow mages when Shade returns?
Finally, what about the "shadow self" or dark alter-ego described in "Return of the Warchwizards?
The citizens of Shade (other than a few - less than one hundred IMHO - surviving Netherese) are the only true Netherese in the Realms. They have lived on the plane of shadow since -339DR. They embraced the shadow weave and shadow magic due to their 'home' location and because they were or became Shar worshippers and she used them as her pet shadow weave users. Over the centuries, their mastery of the shadow weave has increased fantastically - but they are the product of unique circumstances. Other surviving Netherese in Toril proper (such as Larloch, Tabra, Aumvor and a few others) are all weave casters, not shadow weave casters. The wizards of Shade are out of their own special box.
As for the "shadow self" situation, other than being a nice fiction device to show character angst etc. it is likely one of two things - the product of the physical and mental demands arising out of the transfer from one form of casting magic to another (in other words, a manifestation of symptoms brought about by the transition from being a weave caster to a shadow weave caster) or the 'touch' of Shar as she gains another convert and perhaps, surreptitiously, takes a hold over that individual. Shar is a nasty, dangerous lady.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 10:06:02
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I think that this ought to be canon, Mr. Krashos. It's pretty well-thought out. I wish WotC would get its act together and start puting things like that in sourcebooks. I realize that they probably have their own agenda, but they sure aren't showing much of one. Or at least one that'll give the Realms the vibrancy it had under TSR.
If nothing else, they should hire you as a running troubleshooter and fix-it man, cleaning up their mistakes with smooth-sounding Realmslore. Of course, with all the stupidity coming through (I'll not repeat what's been said elsewhere, but you'd know better than me, I'm sure), they'd likely need to clone you about ten times.  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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OrnluTheWolf
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 19:39:49
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Thanks GK, answered my questions perfectly.
Bookwyrm, I agree. The phrasing in that post was wonderful, as was the detail and acuracy. |
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The Shadow Stone
