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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
893 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2022 :  00:51:46  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Scribes,
This thread deals with the assumptions,of lawful good paladin orders and to some extent monk orders of non-evil lawful gods.
If we use Unearthed Arcana 3.5 variants with paladins of tyranny, freedom and slaughter, could we expand upon paladin orders of other gods. For example, paladins of Cyric could freely multiclass as strife lords.
I look for an alternative to shoehorning paladins into blackgaurds. Any push back I need to consider first?

TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2022 :  02:34:24  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Have you looked at the 3e Champions of Valor and Champions of Ruin? They have paladins, monks, and rangers of the various gods.

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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4430 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2022 :  10:16:29  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Scribes,
This thread deals with the assumptions,of lawful good paladin orders and to some extent monk orders of non-evil lawful gods.
If we use Unearthed Arcana 3.5 variants with paladins of tyranny, freedom and slaughter, could we expand upon paladin orders of other gods. For example, paladins of Cyric could freely multiclass as strife lords.
I look for an alternative to shoehorning paladins into blackgaurds. Any push back I need to consider first?



By allowing Paladins of other alignments (and honestly, it makes sense) then you probably would have to make evil organizations and "orders" for them as they are not default. Entering Prestige Classes is another thing, like a Paladin of Tyranny becoming a Dreadmaster of Bane.

I'd posture to think that most deities with Chaotic in their alignment aren't going to have strong Orders that follow them, maybe loose gatherings of people.
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
956 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2022 :  18:00:13  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In addition, the 3 2E god books (and 3E FRCS web enhancement) have a number of orders listed out that would generally work for paladins of various faiths.

Also, Dragon magazine also, IIRC, had alternative 3E paladins beyond those in UA.
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
893 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2022 :  22:01:49  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for pointing out the sourcebooks. The good news is I have Champions of Ruin and Valor, Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons and Demihuman Deities. Just my opinion that paladins ahould not be restricted to lawful good. That is one good decision by 4th edition.
I would restat Scyllua Darkhope as a Paladin of Tyranny 11/Ranger 4 and ditch Blackguard for example

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

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36784 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2022 :  22:46:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess I'm in a minority... Given that the paladin class was based on LG legendary knights, I prefer to keep them that way.

I've no issue with other alignments having divine fighter types, so long as they're not called paladins. (Having other names for them would also negate the need to specify "of freedom" or "of slaughter")

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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2022 :  00:06:11  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I guess I'm in a minority... Given that the paladin class was based on LG legendary knights, I prefer to keep them that way.

I've no issue with other alignments having divine fighter types, so long as they're not called paladins. (Having other names for them would also negate the need to specify "of freedom" or "of slaughter")

One of the reasons I like the Pathfinder Champion class. No alignment prerequisite, you just choose a Tenet (good or evil, modified by your patron deity) for your champion.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Kentinal
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4686 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2022 :  00:06:16  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Basic D&D had Avengers as title for non Lawful Holy Knights.

Not sure all the evolution that the company went though to be equal as to alignment over the years, however clearly allowed other classes to qualify for the class. In part it would be access to benefits of a class in the rules.

Part of it likely was people claiming it was unfair the alignment tricks a DM could pull to make a fallen Paladin, to take away powers.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36784 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2022 :  01:38:45  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

Basic D&D had Avengers as title for non Lawful Holy Knights.

Not sure all the evolution that the company went though to be equal as to alignment over the years, however clearly allowed other classes to qualify for the class. In part it would be access to benefits of a class in the rules.

Part of it likely was people claiming it was unfair the alignment tricks a DM could pull to make a fallen Paladin, to take away powers.




Given a lot of what I've seen over the years, I'm more inclined to think it was players making egregious alignment violations and getting pissed when called out for it.

I'm not saying that there weren't DMs pulling unfair tricks; I'm just saying a lot of so-called "problems" in D&D have been really minor things blown out of proportion.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

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36784 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2022 :  01:42:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I guess I'm in a minority... Given that the paladin class was based on LG legendary knights, I prefer to keep them that way.

I've no issue with other alignments having divine fighter types, so long as they're not called paladins. (Having other names for them would also negate the need to specify "of freedom" or "of slaughter")

One of the reasons I like the Pathfinder Champion class. No alignment prerequisite, you just choose a Tenet (good or evil, modified by your patron deity) for your champion.



We also had Crusaders, in 2E, in Faiths & Avatars -- they couldn't be any neutral alignment, and had different abilities from paladins, but had a similar combination of warrior and priest abilities.

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Diffan
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USA
4430 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2022 :  13:22:06  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Thanks for pointing out the sourcebooks. The good news is I have Champions of Ruin and Valor, Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons and Demihuman Deities. Just my opinion that paladins ahould not be restricted to lawful good. That is one good decision by 4th edition.
I would restat Scyllua Darkhope as a Paladin of Tyranny 11/Ranger 4 and ditch Blackguard for example



I never really understood her Ranger levels? Like....what made her a "ranger" via Lore? That said, know that 4E *DID* have alignment requirements for Paladins, they just needed to match your patron deity and Cavaliers (Heroes of Forgotten Kingdoms) required you to be Lawful Good if you chose Virtue of Sacrifice or LG, Good (or at worst, Unaligned) if you chose Virtue of Valor.

Same with the Blackguard, Vice of Domination required Unaligned or Evil and Vice of Fury required any Non-Lawful Good.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2022 :  13:42:36  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Thanks for pointing out the sourcebooks. The good news is I have Champions of Ruin and Valor, Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons and Demihuman Deities. Just my opinion that paladins ahould not be restricted to lawful good. That is one good decision by 4th edition.
I would restat Scyllua Darkhope as a Paladin of Tyranny 11/Ranger 4 and ditch Blackguard for example



I never really understood her Ranger levels? Like....what made her a "ranger" via Lore? That said, know that 4E *DID* have alignment requirements for Paladins, they just needed to match your patron deity and Cavaliers (Heroes of Forgotten Kingdoms) required you to be Lawful Good if you chose Virtue of Sacrifice or LG, Good (or at worst, Unaligned) if you chose Virtue of Valor.

Same with the Blackguard, Vice of Domination required Unaligned or Evil and Vice of Fury required any Non-Lawful Good.

I believe she was a fallen ranger-turned-blackguard.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Demzer
Senior Scribe

873 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2022 :  14:36:47  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In my campaigns I had a lot of NPCs Divine Champions from the 3E FRCS instead of paladins of different alignments (and the other "Divine" PrCs for non-martial characters) and kept exceptions to alignment rules extremely rare (I think in 15 years I had one or two "... of Slaughter", a lone "... of Freedom" and maybe a handful of Banites "... of Tyranny" ...?).
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4430 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2022 :  18:56:40  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Thanks for pointing out the sourcebooks. The good news is I have Champions of Ruin and Valor, Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons and Demihuman Deities. Just my opinion that paladins ahould not be restricted to lawful good. That is one good decision by 4th edition.
I would restat Scyllua Darkhope as a Paladin of Tyranny 11/Ranger 4 and ditch Blackguard for example



I never really understood her Ranger levels? Like....what made her a "ranger" via Lore? That said, know that 4E *DID* have alignment requirements for Paladins, they just needed to match your patron deity and Cavaliers (Heroes of Forgotten Kingdoms) required you to be Lawful Good if you chose Virtue of Sacrifice or LG, Good (or at worst, Unaligned) if you chose Virtue of Valor.

Same with the Blackguard, Vice of Domination required Unaligned or Evil and Vice of Fury required any Non-Lawful Good.

I believe she was a fallen ranger-turned-blackguard.



Looking at the 3.0 stats, she was Paladin 5/ Ranger 4 before her fall and Blackguard levels. Just the levels of Ranger seem odd for a full-plated warrior
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36784 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2022 :  20:32:19  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan


Looking at the 3.0 stats, she was Paladin 5/ Ranger 4 before her fall and Blackguard levels. Just the levels of Ranger seem odd for a full-plated warrior



Maybe it was intended as more of a dual-class thing (like we used to have in 2E) rather than a multi-class thing.

For those not familiar with 2E, that edition had a thing where a character could gain levels in a class, then switch to a different class, and start advancing in only that new class. As I recall, once the new class exceeded the old class, then the abilities of both could be freely used. (Though, as I recall, the character was still only advancing in the new class) This was limited to humans and was the closest thing to multiclassing that they could do.

I did that with a couple of NPCs -- get a few levels in one class before getting a lot more levels in another.

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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4430 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2022 :  13:01:00  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan


Looking at the 3.0 stats, she was Paladin 5/ Ranger 4 before her fall and Blackguard levels. Just the levels of Ranger seem odd for a full-plated warrior



Maybe it was intended as more of a dual-class thing (like we used to have in 2E) rather than a multi-class thing.

For those not familiar with 2E, that edition had a thing where a character could gain levels in a class, then switch to a different class, and start advancing in only that new class. As I recall, once the new class exceeded the old class, then the abilities of both could be freely used. (Though, as I recall, the character was still only advancing in the new class) This was limited to humans and was the closest thing to multiclassing that they could do.

I did that with a couple of NPCs -- get a few levels in one class before getting a lot more levels in another.



I didn't know Scyllua was statted out in 2ed? But if so, then that's very plausible.
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Ashe Ravenheart
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USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2022 :  14:43:34  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it may have been to give her the Favored Enemy Zhentarim ability.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36784 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2022 :  15:15:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan


I didn't know Scyllua was statted out in 2ed? But if so, then that's very plausible.



I don't know that she was. I was just offering that as an explanation for the odd mix of classes: maybe she started in one class and then later switched and started focusing on another.

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TBeholder
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2399 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2022 :  22:16:14  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

This thread deals with the assumptions,of lawful good paladin orders and to some extent monk orders of non-evil lawful gods.
If we use Unearthed Arcana 3.5 variants with paladins of tyranny, freedom and slaughter, could we expand upon paladin orders of other gods. For example, paladins of Cyric could freely multiclass as strife lords.
I look for an alternative to shoehorning paladins into blackgaurds. Any push back I need to consider first?

This stretches definitions of an already overstretched class. Shoehorning into one narrow class is not better than shoehorning into one of two narrow classes.
There definitely should be more "blessed warrior"/"war priest" types, of course. But do they need extra-custom classes?

Complete Divine has more, but Pious Templar as a temple bouncer and Divine Crusader for miscellaneous "Scourge and purge!!!" needs seem to cover most common niches for the anointed and armoured crowd.
Complete Champion has Ordained Champion, just replace the specific prerequisite with "serves any deity who grants War domain" and it's good to go, generic enough to fit most deities who would have a warrior-priest.

TBH, d20 failed at this on step #1: they introduced multiclassing that works, then just... did not use it for secondary casters, instead opting for clunky OD&D style custom classes.

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Edited by - TBeholder on 12 Aug 2022 23:07:25
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Outlaw Pope
Acolyte

43 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2022 :  20:56:36  Show Profile Send Outlaw Pope a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just rename Paladin as Crusader in 3e with the following changes:

They are alignment corners only and you can only be a Crusader of a deity that touches a corner. (Not alignment hops, but, if that deity's alignment touches: LE, LG, CE, CG.)
Their smite and aligned magic features are oriented around the opposite corner. Receive AB to hit versus those who have at least one opposite alignment, half damage versus anyone who is a step away, 1/3 dmg to TN, and nothing to someone who is the same alignment.
You can have an alignment related mount or companion/squire/patsy.
Allow for minor skill differences/additions based on deity devotion alone (so a crusader of say Cyric will have stealth or social skills, or one of Chauntea will have animal handling or survival, etc.)

And I just incorporate a lot of 2e fighting orders, specific holy orders or class variants, and some PrCs into it all where relevant/needed.
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Diffan
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USA
4430 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2022 :  21:16:48  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

This stretches definitions of an already overstretched class. Shoehorning into one narrow class is not better than shoehorning into one of two narrow classes.
There definitely should be more "blessed warrior"/"war priest" types, of course. But do they need extra-custom classes?


I wouldn't say these are "custom" classes, just a specialization of an already existing class. Just like specialty priests or specialized schooled wizards. You're curtailing options to be more precise is all.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Complete Divine has more, but Pious Templar as a temple bouncer and Divine Crusader for miscellaneous "Scourge and purge!!!" needs seem to cover most common niches for the anointed and armoured crowd.
Complete Champion has Ordained Champion, just replace the specific prerequisite with "serves any deity who grants War domain" and it's good to go, generic enough to fit most deities who would have a warrior-priest.


The biggest difference here, obviously, is that these options are ALL Prestige Classes, thus requiring a certain level to advance to where as a Paladin of___ is used right out of the gate.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

TBH, d20 failed at this on step #1: they introduced multiclassing that works, then just... did not use it for secondary casters, instead opting for clunky OD&D style custom classes.



Not sure what this means? How does it not work for secondary casters?

quote:
Originally posted by Outlaw Pope

I just rename Paladin as Crusader in 3e


This is going to cause some problems and confusion as there's already a class in 3rd Edition called the Crusader (Tome of Battle). Now, granted some of these aspects you noted are incorporated, such as the alignment (they can't be true-neutral) and they get Smite. Also, some of their maneuvers touch on alignment mechanics (getting a boost to damage against a chaotic creature, for example).
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