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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
975 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Aug 2022 : 00:51:46
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Scribes,
This thread deals with the assumptions,of lawful good paladin orders and to some extent monk orders of non-evil lawful gods.
If we use Unearthed Arcana 3.5 variants with paladins of tyranny, freedom and slaughter, could we expand upon paladin orders of other gods. For example, paladins of Cyric could freely multiclass as strife lords.
I look for an alternative to shoehorning paladins into blackgaurds. Any push back I need to consider first?
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2022 : 02:34:24
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| Have you looked at the 3e Champions of Valor and Champions of Ruin? They have paladins, monks, and rangers of the various gods. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4447 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2022 : 10:16:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Scribes,
This thread deals with the assumptions,of lawful good paladin orders and to some extent monk orders of non-evil lawful gods.
If we use Unearthed Arcana 3.5 variants with paladins of tyranny, freedom and slaughter, could we expand upon paladin orders of other gods. For example, paladins of Cyric could freely multiclass as strife lords.
I look for an alternative to shoehorning paladins into blackgaurds. Any push back I need to consider first?
By allowing Paladins of other alignments (and honestly, it makes sense) then you probably would have to make evil organizations and "orders" for them as they are not default. Entering Prestige Classes is another thing, like a Paladin of Tyranny becoming a Dreadmaster of Bane.
I'd posture to think that most deities with Chaotic in their alignment aren't going to have strong Orders that follow them, maybe loose gatherings of people. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
972 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2022 : 18:00:13
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In addition, the 3 2E god books (and 3E FRCS web enhancement) have a number of orders listed out that would generally work for paladins of various faiths.
Also, Dragon magazine also, IIRC, had alternative 3E paladins beyond those in UA. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
975 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2022 : 22:01:49
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Thanks for pointing out the sourcebooks. The good news is I have Champions of Ruin and Valor, Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons and Demihuman Deities. Just my opinion that paladins ahould not be restricted to lawful good. That is one good decision by 4th edition.
I would restat Scyllua Darkhope as a Paladin of Tyranny 11/Ranger 4 and ditch Blackguard for example
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2022 : 22:46:24
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I guess I'm in a minority... Given that the paladin class was based on LG legendary knights, I prefer to keep them that way.
I've no issue with other alignments having divine fighter types, so long as they're not called paladins. (Having other names for them would also negate the need to specify "of freedom" or "of slaughter") |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2022 : 00:06:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I guess I'm in a minority... Given that the paladin class was based on LG legendary knights, I prefer to keep them that way.
I've no issue with other alignments having divine fighter types, so long as they're not called paladins. (Having other names for them would also negate the need to specify "of freedom" or "of slaughter")
One of the reasons I like the Pathfinder Champion class. No alignment prerequisite, you just choose a Tenet (good or evil, modified by your patron deity) for your champion. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4690 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2022 : 00:06:16
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Basic D&D had Avengers as title for non Lawful Holy Knights.
Not sure all the evolution that the company went though to be equal as to alignment over the years, however clearly allowed other classes to qualify for the class. In part it would be access to benefits of a class in the rules.
Part of it likely was people claiming it was unfair the alignment tricks a DM could pull to make a fallen Paladin, to take away powers.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2022 : 01:38:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Basic D&D had Avengers as title for non Lawful Holy Knights.
Not sure all the evolution that the company went though to be equal as to alignment over the years, however clearly allowed other classes to qualify for the class. In part it would be access to benefits of a class in the rules.
Part of it likely was people claiming it was unfair the alignment tricks a DM could pull to make a fallen Paladin, to take away powers.
Given a lot of what I've seen over the years, I'm more inclined to think it was players making egregious alignment violations and getting pissed when called out for it.
I'm not saying that there weren't DMs pulling unfair tricks; I'm just saying a lot of so-called "problems" in D&D have been really minor things blown out of proportion. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2022 : 01:42:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I guess I'm in a minority... Given that the paladin class was based on LG legendary knights, I prefer to keep them that way.
I've no issue with other alignments having divine fighter types, so long as they're not called paladins. (Having other names for them would also negate the need to specify "of freedom" or "of slaughter")
One of the reasons I like the Pathfinder Champion class. No alignment prerequisite, you just choose a Tenet (good or evil, modified by your patron deity) for your champion.
We also had Crusaders, in 2E, in Faiths & Avatars -- they couldn't be any neutral alignment, and had different abilities from paladins, but had a similar combination of warrior and priest abilities. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4447 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2022 : 13:22:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Thanks for pointing out the sourcebooks. The good news is I have Champions of Ruin and Valor, Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons and Demihuman Deities. Just my opinion that paladins ahould not be restricted to lawful good. That is one good decision by 4th edition.
I would restat Scyllua Darkhope as a Paladin of Tyranny 11/Ranger 4 and ditch Blackguard for example
I never really understood her Ranger levels? Like....what made her a "ranger" via Lore? That said, know that 4E *DID* have alignment requirements for Paladins, they just needed to match your patron deity and Cavaliers (Heroes of Forgotten Kingdoms) required you to be Lawful Good if you chose Virtue of Sacrifice or LG, Good (or at worst, Unaligned) if you chose Virtue of Valor.
Same with the Blackguard, Vice of Domination required Unaligned or Evil and Vice of Fury required any Non-Lawful Good. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2022 : 13:42:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Thanks for pointing out the sourcebooks. The good news is I have Champions of Ruin and Valor, Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons and Demihuman Deities. Just my opinion that paladins ahould not be restricted to lawful good. That is one good decision by 4th edition.
I would restat Scyllua Darkhope as a Paladin of Tyranny 11/Ranger 4 and ditch Blackguard for example
I never really understood her Ranger levels? Like....what made her a "ranger" via Lore? That said, know that 4E *DID* have alignment requirements for Paladins, they just needed to match your patron deity and Cavaliers (Heroes of Forgotten Kingdoms) required you to be Lawful Good if you chose Virtue of Sacrifice or LG, Good (or at worst, Unaligned) if you chose Virtue of Valor.
Same with the Blackguard, Vice of Domination required Unaligned or Evil and Vice of Fury required any Non-Lawful Good.
I believe she was a fallen ranger-turned-blackguard. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2022 : 14:36:47
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| In my campaigns I had a lot of NPCs Divine Champions from the 3E FRCS instead of paladins of different alignments (and the other "Divine" PrCs for non-martial characters) and kept exceptions to alignment rules extremely rare (I think in 15 years I had one or two "... of Slaughter", a lone "... of Freedom" and maybe a handful of Banites "... of Tyranny" ...?). |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4447 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2022 : 18:56:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Thanks for pointing out the sourcebooks. The good news is I have Champions of Ruin and Valor, Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons and Demihuman Deities. Just my opinion that paladins ahould not be restricted to lawful good. That is one good decision by 4th edition.
I would restat Scyllua Darkhope as a Paladin of Tyranny 11/Ranger 4 and ditch Blackguard for example
I never really understood her Ranger levels? Like....what made her a "ranger" via Lore? That said, know that 4E *DID* have alignment requirements for Paladins, they just needed to match your patron deity and Cavaliers (Heroes of Forgotten Kingdoms) required you to be Lawful Good if you chose Virtue of Sacrifice or LG, Good (or at worst, Unaligned) if you chose Virtue of Valor.
Same with the Blackguard, Vice of Domination required Unaligned or Evil and Vice of Fury required any Non-Lawful Good.
I believe she was a fallen ranger-turned-blackguard.
Looking at the 3.0 stats, she was Paladin 5/ Ranger 4 before her fall and Blackguard levels. Just the levels of Ranger seem odd for a full-plated warrior |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2022 : 20:32:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Looking at the 3.0 stats, she was Paladin 5/ Ranger 4 before her fall and Blackguard levels. Just the levels of Ranger seem odd for a full-plated warrior
Maybe it was intended as more of a dual-class thing (like we used to have in 2E) rather than a multi-class thing.
For those not familiar with 2E, that edition had a thing where a character could gain levels in a class, then switch to a different class, and start advancing in only that new class. As I recall, once the new class exceeded the old class, then the abilities of both could be freely used. (Though, as I recall, the character was still only advancing in the new class) This was limited to humans and was the closest thing to multiclassing that they could do.
I did that with a couple of NPCs -- get a few levels in one class before getting a lot more levels in another. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4447 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2022 : 13:01:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Looking at the 3.0 stats, she was Paladin 5/ Ranger 4 before her fall and Blackguard levels. Just the levels of Ranger seem odd for a full-plated warrior
Maybe it was intended as more of a dual-class thing (like we used to have in 2E) rather than a multi-class thing.
For those not familiar with 2E, that edition had a thing where a character could gain levels in a class, then switch to a different class, and start advancing in only that new class. As I recall, once the new class exceeded the old class, then the abilities of both could be freely used. (Though, as I recall, the character was still only advancing in the new class) This was limited to humans and was the closest thing to multiclassing that they could do.
I did that with a couple of NPCs -- get a few levels in one class before getting a lot more levels in another.
I didn't know Scyllua was statted out in 2ed? But if so, then that's very plausible. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2022 : 15:15:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I didn't know Scyllua was statted out in 2ed? But if so, then that's very plausible.
I don't know that she was. I was just offering that as an explanation for the odd mix of classes: maybe she started in one class and then later switched and started focusing on another. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2433 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2022 : 22:16:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
This thread deals with the assumptions,of lawful good paladin orders and to some extent monk orders of non-evil lawful gods.
If we use Unearthed Arcana 3.5 variants with paladins of tyranny, freedom and slaughter, could we expand upon paladin orders of other gods. For example, paladins of Cyric could freely multiclass as strife lords.
I look for an alternative to shoehorning paladins into blackgaurds. Any push back I need to consider first?
This stretches definitions of an already overstretched class. Shoehorning into one narrow class is not better than shoehorning into one of two narrow classes.
There definitely should be more "blessed warrior"/"war priest" types, of course. But do they need extra-custom classes?
Complete Divine has more, but Pious Templar as a temple bouncer and Divine Crusader for miscellaneous "Scourge and purge!!!" needs seem to cover most common niches for the anointed and armoured crowd.
Complete Champion has Ordained Champion, just replace the specific prerequisite with "serves any deity who grants War domain" and it's good to go, generic enough to fit most deities who would have a warrior-priest.
TBH, d20 failed at this on step #1: they introduced multiclassing that works, then just... did not use it for secondary casters, instead opting for clunky OD&D style custom classes. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 12 Aug 2022 23:07:25 |
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Outlaw Pope
Acolyte
43 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2022 : 20:56:36
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I just rename Paladin as Crusader in 3e with the following changes:
They are alignment corners only and you can only be a Crusader of a deity that touches a corner. (Not alignment hops, but, if that deity's alignment touches: LE, LG, CE, CG.)
Their smite and aligned magic features are oriented around the opposite corner. Receive AB to hit versus those who have at least one opposite alignment, half damage versus anyone who is a step away, 1/3 dmg to TN, and nothing to someone who is the same alignment.
You can have an alignment related mount or companion/squire/patsy.
Allow for minor skill differences/additions based on deity devotion alone (so a crusader of say Cyric will have stealth or social skills, or one of Chauntea will have animal handling or survival, etc.)
And I just incorporate a lot of 2e fighting orders, specific holy orders or class variants, and some PrCs into it all where relevant/needed. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4447 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2022 : 21:16:48
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
This stretches definitions of an already overstretched class. Shoehorning into one narrow class is not better than shoehorning into one of two narrow classes.
There definitely should be more "blessed warrior"/"war priest" types, of course. But do they need extra-custom classes?
I wouldn't say these are "custom" classes, just a specialization of an already existing class. Just like specialty priests or specialized schooled wizards. You're curtailing options to be more precise is all.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Complete Divine has more, but Pious Templar as a temple bouncer and Divine Crusader for miscellaneous "Scourge and purge!!!" needs seem to cover most common niches for the anointed and armoured crowd.
Complete Champion has Ordained Champion, just replace the specific prerequisite with "serves any deity who grants War domain" and it's good to go, generic enough to fit most deities who would have a warrior-priest.
The biggest difference here, obviously, is that these options are ALL Prestige Classes, thus requiring a certain level to advance to where as a Paladin of___ is used right out of the gate.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
TBH, d20 failed at this on step #1: they introduced multiclassing that works, then just... did not use it for secondary casters, instead opting for clunky OD&D style custom classes.
Not sure what this means? How does it not work for secondary casters?
quote:
Originally posted by Outlaw Pope
I just rename Paladin as Crusader in 3e
This is going to cause some problems and confusion as there's already a class in 3rd Edition called the Crusader (Tome of Battle). Now, granted some of these aspects you noted are incorporated, such as the alignment (they can't be true-neutral) and they get Smite. Also, some of their maneuvers touch on alignment mechanics (getting a boost to damage against a chaotic creature, for example).
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Variant Paladins 3.x edition
