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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
189 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jul 2022 : 17:30:39
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To cast magic, one needs to have the Gift. Ed has mentioned that this characteristic is so important that realms as different as Waterdeep and Thay both test children to identify who has a potential for magic or not. From what I’ve read, this is usually done by showing the subject some magical text: if they can read it, they have the Gift and might be trained in magic; if not, they will only see shifting symbols and won’t be able to make anything from the scroll. I haven’t been able to find out how common that trait is though.
That is for arcane magic; there are other ways to access the Weave. Ed has said that in the case of warlocks, the patron would provide a channel to the Weave, so I assume it’s not possible for one to sell their soul in exchange for the knowledge of spells that they will never be able to cast. Is it the same for divine magic? A priest gets their spells directly from their god, but even if that connection is severed, they can still cast spells of level 1 and 2. So is the Gift required to cast spells as a priest? Or is it necessary in order to cast minor spells when the priest has no connection to their god? Would it make sense for a character to devote their life to a god because it’s the only way for them to access the Weave?
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1290 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2022 : 18:51:52
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| My understanding is that when the priest is ordained within the Church, the ceremony creates the connection to their god and grants them the ability to cast divine spells. Now, that doesn't mean that there aren't people who are born "God touched" with the ability to perform some minor divine magic. The god in question very likely has some kind of plan for the individual to become a revered seer or oracle within their faith (that the god can then use to fight or start a heresy to move the church in the direction the god wants it to go in). |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
189 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2023 : 09:53:21
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Ed gave an answer last week: "An individual needs the Gift to devise new spells, and to cast arcane spells at all. A Giftless individual can be a spellcasting cleric or a spellcasting warlock, but they can't devise new spells, vary existing ones at will by experimentation (they can experiment, but without control), or combine spells. A Giftless priest would receive spells in their mind from the deity (or a servitor) in response to their prayers, and would be able to cast them normally, and just like any other priest, the deity can send anything (nothing in response to your prayers, or different spells than you expected or asked for). A warlock's spells come from their patron (they can only know spells and cantrips the patron they made the pact with revealed/gave to them, or that other warlocks wrote down and either gave/sold/traded to you the warlock, or you the warlock gained those writings in some way...and even then, if your patron doesn't want you the warlock to have those spells or cantrips, they may have them 'go wild' if you try to cast them). So a Giftless individual COULD form a pact and become a warlock, but they would be under the firm control of their patron...and the DM would have to think about how that individual could contact a patron at all, in the first place. The current edition of the game is written so much from the "Hey, player, you can do anything you want when building your character, pick this and that and then tell your DM the backstory and you're good" that it overlooks fitting in with the setting, and how your character can advance in the setting when they can't find mentors, or tutors, or resources. The searches for which of course are the stuff of many adventures."
The question remains of why giftless priests could still cast level 1 and 2 spells during the Time of Troubles, or when in a different Crystal Sphere. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2023 : 15:34:28
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so the rules of 1st edition are the reason for the casting of level 1 and 2 spells. From the original deities and demigods
As is explained in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE, 1st and 2nd level spells are gained through the cleric's knowledge and faith. All other spells are gained through prayer. Third, fourth and fifth level spells are granted by the supernatural servants or minions of the cleric's deity. These servants range up to demigod level. Clerics whose patrons are demigods (and not lesser or greater gods) will receive their 3rd through 5th level spells directly from their deity. A demigod cannot grant spells above 5th level, so a cleric of a demigod could never receive 6th or 7th level spells, Sixth and seventh level spells are granted to clerics directly from their deities. Only the greater gods may grant 7th level spells.
Although first edition rules didn't go into how exactly this happens... I have a STRICTLY NON-CANON answer that ties somewhat to what I was doing with Abeir and a DM's guild product that someone put out called "Priest: Ancient World Divine Class"... Essentially the concept I created ties that before gods can make clerics, they must make priests... unless they have help from a greater deity. Priests must have idols to act as a conduit to their gods. So, the general idea I would use as an explanation would be that gods "do something" to the idols they have and the sacred temples they consecrate... and these act in a way similar to a weave anchor, but for divine magic for THAT deity. For higher level magics, this magic must source from their home plane, with the spirits of the fallen empowering similar magical "artifacts"/"idols" to hear the prayers of clerics and establishing a conduit to transfer the power to them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 03 Aug 2023 15:41:37 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8027 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2023 : 04:26:34
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quote:
As is explained in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE, 1st and 2nd level spells are gained through the cleric's knowledge and faith. All other spells are gained through prayer. Third, fourth and fifth level spells are granted by the supernatural servants or minions of the cleric's deity. These servants range up to demigod level. Clerics whose patrons are demigods (and not lesser or greater gods) will receive their 3rd through 5th level spells directly from their deity. A demigod cannot grant spells above 5th level, so a cleric of a demigod could never receive 6th or 7th level spells, Sixth and seventh level spells are granted to clerics directly from their deities. Only the greater gods may grant 7th level spells.
This reads as very similar to the 2E Spelljammer's explanation.
The priest brings 1st and 2nd level magics everywhere through faith alone. But higher level magics (including some "Granted Powers") are inaccessible in crystal spheres or the flow which lack an established presence by the priest's deity. Priests can try to bring or build a congregation of faithful in a new crystal sphere to establish their deity's influence ... and any local deities who already exist there may choose to assist or oppose the intrusion into their domain. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2023 : 12:49:08
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| Oh, and to add to the non-canon thing I was posting above about idols, that same DM's Guild resource would have holy symbols kind of acting like idols (which they are in truth... just smaller and more portable). Mixing that with Ayrik's note about spelljammer would in my book say "you can memorize 1st and 2nd level spells through faith and prayer alone.... as long as you have a holy symbol or other idol of your god available to act as a conduit". This would make a cleric losing their holy symbol while in another plane be on shaky ground (kind of like a wizard that loses access to their spellbook). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2510 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2023 : 16:41:37
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
so the rules of 1st edition are the reason for the casting of level 1 and 2 spells. From the original deities and demigods
As is explained in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE, 1st and 2nd level spells are gained through the cleric's knowledge and faith. All other spells are gained through prayer. Third, fourth and fifth level spells are granted by the supernatural servants or minions of the cleric's deity. These servants range up to demigod level. Clerics whose patrons are demigods (and not lesser or greater gods) will receive their 3rd through 5th level spells directly from their deity. A demigod cannot grant spells above 5th level, so a cleric of a demigod could never receive 6th or 7th level spells, Sixth and seventh level spells are granted to clerics directly from their deities. Only the greater gods may grant 7th level spells.
Although first edition rules didn't go into how exactly this happens...
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
This reads as very similar to the 2E Spelljammer's explanation.
The priest brings 1st and 2nd level magics everywhere through faith alone. But higher level magics (including some "Granted Powers") are inaccessible in crystal spheres or the flow which lack an established presence by the priest's deity. Priests can try to bring or build a congregation of faithful in a new crystal sphere to establish their deity's influence ... and any local deities who already exist there may choose to assist or oppose the intrusion into their domain.
More specifically, usually priests can keep their existing spells, but only recover spells of 2-nd level and below while outside the spheres to which their gods have access (i.e. venerated by enough of people and not blocked/banished).
Accordingly, 2-nd level spells include some ways to handle this:
Detect Powers is a divination that finds out from outside whether one's god, allies thereof or someone "close enough" has access to the sphere.
Contact Home Power creates a personal link to mitigate the problem for duration... if it's used in a suitable place (a proper "foreign" sphere of Prime, but not one from which the power in question was specifically blocked or banished, and not Flow), if that god is fine with this (attitudes may differ), etc.
Later there "icons" were introduced, that is consecrated objects acting as low-grade power keys and allowing to recover spells at least somewhat above 2nd level.
But also, keep in mind that FR rules on divine magic are unusual. Per general Grubbyverse rules priests can work with faith in various things:
- focused on specific deity (speciality priest);
- primary deity and wider teaching thereof and allies (common cleric);
- no Power in particular, philosophies (including even atheists, the Athar).
Then there are outliers:
- elemental priests: technically worship one of the elemental lords, but since those don't care much about mortals, in practice function mostly as philosophy clerics;
- pantheistic traditions: between philosophical and worship of an undefined open pantheon, as they essentially send requests "to whomever it may concern" (the "Temple of Ten Thousand Gods" from Al Qadim, and this works even on Faerun, as there's cult of Adama in Durpar).
- A whole pantheon: Polygots, normally spelljamming lot, as they are not well trusted by most Prime clergy, but good for moving around and spreading influence;
- The Path and the Way: mostly philosophical worship, but technically backed by a loosely allied pantheon. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 08 Aug 2023 17:28:57 |
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
189 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2025 : 19:58:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren
Ed gave an answer last week: "An individual needs the Gift to devise new spells, and to cast arcane spells at all. A Giftless individual can be a spellcasting cleric or a spellcasting warlock, but they can't devise new spells, vary existing ones at will by experimentation (they can experiment, but without control), or combine spells [...] A warlock's spells come from their patron (they can only know spells and cantrips the patron they made the pact with revealed/gave to them, or that other warlocks wrote down and either gave/sold/traded to you the warlock, or you the warlock gained those writings in some way...and even then, if your patron doesn't want you the warlock to have those spells or cantrips, they may have them 'go wild' if you try to cast them). So a Giftless individual COULD form a pact and become a warlock, but they would be under the firm control of their patron...and the DM would have to think about how that individual could contact a patron at all, in the first place.
It seems Ed is now saying the opposite:
"Do warlocks need to have the gift to form a pact, or do they get their powers from the pact itself? No, they have to have the Gift to become a warlock in the first place. Unless a deity (not another extraplanar being, a deity) intervenes and bestows the Gift upon them. And the deity would have to really want them for some reason."
Or maybe he is just talking about the last line in the cited paragraph: by default, the warlock would need the Gift to contact their patron, but if they find ways around that obstacle, then they could cast the spells their patron grants them even without the Gift. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2025 : 03:36:51
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I respect the hell out of Ed as a worldbuilder, but I wish he'd not introduced the Gift. I've seen a LOT of discussions on it, and it sometimes gets heated.
Me, I get that it adds some flavor, but I think it introduces more complications than flavor. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
241 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2025 : 11:56:00
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This is the first time I'm hearing of the Gift. I'm guessing it's a newer idea, introduced to explain the existence of Sorcerers.
Personally, I wouldn't put much weight on lore changes necessitated by mechanical updates to the core game. They always seem a little forced. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2025 : 12:59:40
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
This is the first time I'm hearing of the Gift. I'm guessing it's a newer idea, introduced to explain the existence of Sorcerers.
Personally, I wouldn't put much weight on lore changes necessitated by mechanical updates to the core game. They always seem a little forced.
No, the gift affects basically all spellcasters. You can be the most intelligent person in the world, but without the gift... you just can't become a wizard. So, its not just for natural spellcasters like sorcerers or similar.
I fall kind of where Wooly does in this as well. From an in-game perspective, it doesn't affect much. From a metagame / story perspective, the idea opens up opportunities for say "an individual who seeks to steal the gift from someone else" or some other trope, or just to explain away someone's fascination with magic and wish that they could wield it (in some ways, this can correlate to some people wishing they had natural artistic talent or musical talent.... but at the same time, we know both of those CAN be learned just like anything else.
But, as with many things, somehow its developed into an argument for some. I can't fault people though... I know I've gone off on a tangent hating some idea or other in the past. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
227 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2025 : 16:29:04
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
This is the first time I'm hearing of the Gift. I'm guessing it's a newer idea, introduced to explain the existence of Sorcerers.
Personally, I wouldn't put much weight on lore changes necessitated by mechanical updates to the core game. They always seem a little forced.
This is the first time I heard of it too. And, yes, I feel it is just something tacked on to explain how things work in light of mechanical changes. The perfect place to introduce the mechanical change in 3e was Magic of Faerun. But I don't remember anything said about the "gift." Especially for arcane magic users. |
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A Gift for divine magic?
