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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jul 2022 : 22:54:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
With Primordials becoming gods, there might be an example, Brian James did suggest Tiamat (and by extension, Bajamut) are Primordials who became gods, by stating Lotan (daughter of Tiamat) was a primordial:
https://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=1&TOPIC_ID=19136#448466
Io himself is complicated - Ed confirmed Io and Asgoroth/Asgorath are one and the same:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/the-symbol-of-the-all-dragon-world-dragon/
WotC went with this line of thought with their new 5e mythology. In Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, Bahamut and Tiamat (and by extension, Io and Sardior, and even perhaps Eberron's Progenitor dragons) are said to be "primordial dragons", ontologically different to gods and primordials because they originated from the Material Plane, while gods are from the Astral planes and the primordials from the Elemental planes.
As for Io/Asgorath, his (or her, as Asgorath is said to be female) relationship with both the gods and primordials hints that perhaps Io is member of this race that were "kin to both" gods and primordials, much like the guardian of the Living Gate (4e PHB3). The 2e Monster Mythology sourcebook implies Io is an aspect of the World Serpient, a being that predates the gods as we know them. Io may be older than even the Lady of Pain, if we go by 3e sources... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 20 Jul 2022 22:58:44 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2022 : 23:02:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
In all previous editions Bahamut and Tiamat have been Archetypes. I see no reason to change that.
Well, WotC already changed it with their Fizban's book, although "primordial dragon" can be a fancy name for "archetype". They function basically the same. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2022 : 00:55:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
In all previous editions Bahamut and Tiamat have been Archetypes. I see no reason to change that. It may be that they were primordials first and were then became the archetypal representatives of dragons. But they definitely shouldn't be considered the same as gods because even the FR lore, muddled as it is, matches more closely with archetypes than gods.
Except for when they were explicitly listed as deities, such as in 2E and 3E. |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2022 : 03:43:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
In all previous editions Bahamut and Tiamat have been Archetypes. I see no reason to change that. It may be that they were primordials first and were then became the archetypal representatives of dragons. But they definitely shouldn't be considered the same as gods because even the FR lore, muddled as it is, matches more closely with archetypes than gods.
Except for when they were explicitly listed as deities, such as in 2E and 3E.
Kossuth has been across the board, right? |1e Lesser power|2e/3e Greater Diety|4e Primordial|5e doesn't care and gives everyone divine domains anyway. |
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Edited by - PattPlays on 21 Jul 2022 03:44:19 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2022 : 11:12:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
And its clear that as far as gods go, Bahamut and Tiamat just dont fit the mould
In your opinion. Personally, I don't see any reason why not to call them gods, since they've been explicitly called gods in the past and did everything gods do, like live on the outer planes and have clerics they granted spells to.
Here's the thing: dragons are not human. Why should their gods "fit the mould" of human/demihuman deities when their primary worshippers are not human or demihuman? |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2022 : 15:34:02
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Just throwing my two cents here on dragons (and giants and other beasties) gods.
(Sorry for not referencing this stuff but I don't have time to go dig in the sourcebooks right now)
Personally I always assumed that for such powerful and (most of the time) inherently magical beings, the worship of a handful of individuals was enough to keep their gods alive, kicking and powerful.
Just thinking of the demographics, demihumans breed like rabbits and are everywhere on the planet while giants are very sparse and even in their own "big" population centers there are what? A few hundreds? So if a lesser deity requires the worship of tens of thousands of souls, there are not enough giants alive on Faerun to keep up even a couple of the deities and even then they would be extremely weak. Yet the giant's gods have not been steamrolled over by the (extremely expansionistic) Faerunian pantheon despite there being lots of them and the loyalties of their people being divided with some worshipping the elemental gods or select demihuman gods (like the Gods of Fury). Of course they are extremely diminished since the time of Ostoria but they've got stable geographical pockets of influence and still definitely exist in modern Faerun.
Dragons are another matter entirely, beside not being very pious beings, there are even fewer of them. So to keep a dragon god up through worship should be completely impossible now (unless you recruit thousands of demihumans, like Bahamut and Tiamat do) and was probably extremely difficult in the past too (were there even ever millions of dragons worshiping the same god on Toril? Don't think so, so no greater dragon god ever? Don't think so either).
This is partly corroborated by the reference in Realms canon (I think after the ToT when Tiamat had her champion kill and eat other powerful chromatic dragons to re-emerge) of the existence of "the last worshiper of K..." (think it was the deity Kereska, maybe it's the Millenium Dragon or another powerful one down by the Old Empires) whom basically was keeping the deity alive on their own.
Of course, this opens up a whole can of "souls are then not equal" issues that I sidestep by flinging myself into D&D stats and saying that the "faith power" of a 20HD/20th level being is more than that of a 1HD/1st level being (which means, besides experience levels, most demihumans should be about equal). |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2022 : 16:16:55
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Or, souls are not equal, but the worship is the same value, it is the death that provides a different value.
So dragons aren't pious, worship provides the same amount of power so dragon gods get virtually nothing compared to Faerunian pantheon gods.
If miracles and avatars and maintaining a divine realm and other stuff costs power then these dragon gods are going to be fairly starved of power and therefore perform relatively few activities on the material plane because all their power must go towards maintaining their divine realm.
Buuttt, when a dragon dies, because it is a racial pantheon, the soul goes to whichever dragon god represents their life and personality etc. These dragons are worth the sum total of all their experience and a 2000 year old 30+ HD dragon could provide enough power to help a dragon deity maintain his divine realm for a century.
There are also cost savings to be made on things like divine realms, making sure you are aligned to the plane it is on helps (immortals handbook), sharing your realm with other gods (all the dragon gods share the same place and just have a little portion of it i believe).
So these dragon gods may have survived on slim pickings for ages by doing very little and sharing the maintenance of a divine realm.
That being said, TIamat and Bahamut were unique monsters in d&d, quasi deities in the OGB, varying levels of deity in 2e to 3e, archetypes in 4e, who knows what in 5e. Their state is fluid and that means its very much up to the individual what they want them to be.
To my mind, them being archetypes solves many of the problems that required special scenarios to be created to explain inconsistencies (that still arent completely explained). How did Tiamat and Bahamut survive with no worshippers for 30000 years
How did Marduk survive when he was slain by Tiamat
How did Tiamat survive when she was slain by Marduk
How did Tiamat survive when she was slain by Gilgeam
How did Tiamat survive when she was slain by Gareth Dragonsbane and company when she was a demipower (therefore if she was a god she would have only one avatar) How did Tiamat survive when during the Time of Troubles she was slain twice in a conflict that saw gods destroyed for being slain even once
We have very convoluted explanations that do not entirely hold up to examination, but if Tiamat and Bahamut are archetypes all those problems and solutions are not even necessary.
Occams Razor and all that jazz.
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2022 : 19:39:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
How did Tiamat and Bahamut survive with no worshippers for 30000 years
Which 30000 years? I think in Dragons of Faerun they are depicted as the only draconic deities with continuous worship basically since dragons existed on Toril.
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
How did Marduk survive when he was slain by Tiamat
How did Tiamat survive when she was slain by Marduk
Avatars.
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
How did Tiamat survive when she was slain by Gilgeam
In one of those convoluted ways gods tried (and mostly suceeded) to get around the ToT. She, Mystra (kinda), Waukeen, Bane (but listen to Wooly on this one), Myrkul (not a deity but still survived) got away with it. Actually very few "permanent" deity deaths resulted from the ToT: Ibrandul, Gilgeam, Leira and Bhaal (only because his countless offsprings ultimately failed, but he had a comeback plan too) and a bunch of local demipowers or lesser beings.
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
How did Tiamat survive when she was slain by Gareth Dragonsbane and company when she was a demipower (therefore if she was a god she would have only one avatar) How did Tiamat survive when during the Time of Troubles she was slain twice in a conflict that saw gods destroyed for being slain even once
I'm not up to speed on the Cold Lands adventures and history but I think this was slightly after the ToT and maybe she wasn't a demigod? I think this happened in Avernus so it wasn't her planar realm (or at least not her only one, she got homes in Dragons Eyre and Heliopolis too so that might be the trick, having to kill her in all three places to really do the deed).
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
We have very convoluted explanations that do not entirely hold up to examination, but if Tiamat and Bahamut are archetypes all those problems and solutions are not even necessary.
Occams Razor and all that jazz.
I don't see many complications in explaining this stuff away, I'm possibly getting the 30000 years you are referring to wrong (but Toril's history doesn't allow for much space for such a big span of time) and maybe there is something cheesy going on with the Gareth Dragonsbane stuff that I don't know but overall Tiamat and Bahamut being deities (especially when they are called out as such, have established churches, priests, etc...) doesn't seem like a stretch to me. And you don't have to come up with archetypes and having another category of "uber powerful beings with deity like abilities, deity like worship and deity like behaviour but totally not a deity" (which is something I don't like of the Primordials even and that muddies a lot of planar stuff). |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2022 : 18:48:03
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
I am not really familiar with this subject but based on this thread, could the fight have been between primordials with the winning side being "converted" into gods? When AO banished the losers, he could have said that to prevent this from happening again, the remaining primordials either have to become inactive or they will be changed into gods. That is why there are ones that are still here (but "slumbering") and the other powerful beings are gods. That could explain why Selune, Shar, Mystral, and Chauntea were here before mortals (that is my current understanding of Reamspace cosmology).
If we go with the idea that "god" is a template added onto a powerful being, and not a type unto itself, then this theory could go many directions. They could have been primordials, archfey, demons, angels, genies, devils, etc.... and just tagged on the god template "as a reward for being loyal to Ao". The template may come with requirements, like requiring worship energy, etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2022 : 18:53:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Primordials should never create avatars.
True gods create avatars
Archetypes create aspects
Primordials are just primordials
In some respects, a "simulacrum" is an "avatar" of a mortal. We get caught up on a lot of terms (myself included). We should relook into what exactly they might mean. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2022 : 19:14:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Should they function like avatars though?
Gods have avatars because they are supposed to be confined to the outer planes, they are part of their divine realms and therefore a nebulous being of thought and belief.
Avatars serve the purpose of allowing these gods to enact change on the mortal realm (which is difficult if you dont have a body - gods should not have physical form), the gods can create multiple avatars and control them all simultaneously precisely because they have ascended beyond the mortal form. If a god is killed its realm (its body) drifts on the astral plane but can be reborn with enough power (belief). Avatars can be destroyed and created again and again as long as the god has enough power.
Archetypes are beings imbued with the power of an outer plane. They are a physical being, but are tied to the plane that powers them. In order to interact with the material plane they allow others to become aspects of themselves. These aspects are not the same as the archetype, they are independent beings but in order to become an aspect and imbue themselves with the power of the archetype they must have originally had many goals and traits in common with the archetype. If an archetype is destroyed (demogorgon for instance) then another being can become the archetype (the plane seems to choose for itself). If an aspect is destroyed another will choose to become an aspect eventually, sometimes multiple aspects can exist at once.
Primordials i'm not entirely sure about but they seem to be super beings of the material plane and possibly the inner planes (elemental energy perhaps). They have a single physical form, if it is killed they die but otherwise they live forever.
Never heard of these primordial shards before, but i would be tempted to make them be used to create a similar being but not the same, like primordial reproduction. Just may take on it, but if primordials were similar to gods or archetypes we would not need a separate category, because we have a separate category we might as well make them distinct.
and a dead god floating in the astral is a "body" made of "godstone"... almost like its a "dead primordial" form. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2022 : 19:55:13
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| Oh, one last theory to float around here. We have that Abeir and Toril were "split" into two worlds at the time of the death of Asgorath/Asgoroth aka Io... being "split" by Ao. So, what if Ao and Asgorath are separate halves of the same being, created at the moment of death of Io? That could imply that the "gods"/"estelar" had at one time imprisoned away "Ao", but he got released by the batrachi. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2022 : 02:18:54
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, one last theory to float around here. We have that Abeir and Toril were "split" into two worlds at the time of the death of Asgorath/Asgoroth aka Io... being "split" by Ao. So, what if Ao and Asgorath are separate halves of the same being, created at the moment of death of Io? That could imply that the "gods"/"estelar" had at one time imprisoned away "Ao", but he got released by the batrachi.
I prefer to think that Abeir was never a part of nor had any connection to Toril, and that the whole "twinned by Ao" thing was primordial PR to justify (in mortal eyes) them invading Toril. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2022 : 20:30:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, one last theory to float around here. We have that Abeir and Toril were "split" into two worlds at the time of the death of Asgorath/Asgoroth aka Io... being "split" by Ao. So, what if Ao and Asgorath are separate halves of the same being, created at the moment of death of Io? That could imply that the "gods"/"estelar" had at one time imprisoned away "Ao", but he got released by the batrachi.
I prefer to think that Abeir was never a part of nor had any connection to Toril, and that the whole "twinned by Ao" thing was primordial PR to justify (in mortal eyes) them invading Toril.
Understood, and there's probably dozens of ways to spin something different, but currently this one's the official one, so why not try to spin something that isn't necessarily far from the mark. Another take might be that the world serpent was what broke apart and became Ao and Io and Asgorath, etc... and possibly other "overgods" such as Kukul, the Celestial Emperor, etc....
Just another thing to throw out there, the idea that portions of Toril connect to the outer planes differently than other portions of Toril (i.e. Kara-Tur not having astral connections, but rather connections to the spirit world) might imply that only certain portions of the world were copied or linked somehow to the world of Abeir. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2022 : 07:27:48
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, one last theory to float around here. We have that Abeir and Toril were "split" into two worlds at the time of the death of Asgorath/Asgoroth aka Io... being "split" by Ao. So, what if Ao and Asgorath are separate halves of the same being, created at the moment of death of Io? That could imply that the "gods"/"estelar" had at one time imprisoned away "Ao", but he got released by the batrachi.
Well, there is some intersetting support for this idea. Vanished Moon appendix writer Matthew Martin, did confirm Chaos name - Ionthas - is a tribute to Io. If we see the High God and Chaos as two sides of the same coun, they might be split from one being, like in your theory Ao and Asgoroth.
Ed also stated it's possible, if improbable the High God and Ao are one and the same being:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/does-the-over-god-ao-hold-any-power-outside-the-realmspace-crystal-sphere/
The published Realms and Dragonlance do share some meta connections - like Toril being an initial name for Krynn. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2022 : 14:25:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, one last theory to float around here. We have that Abeir and Toril were "split" into two worlds at the time of the death of Asgorath/Asgoroth aka Io... being "split" by Ao. So, what if Ao and Asgorath are separate halves of the same being, created at the moment of death of Io? That could imply that the "gods"/"estelar" had at one time imprisoned away "Ao", but he got released by the batrachi.
Well, there is some intersetting support for this idea. Vanished Moon appendix writer Matthew Martin, did confirm Chaos name - Ionthas - is a tribute to Io. If we see the High God and Chaos as two sides of the same coun, they might be split from one being, like in your theory Ao and Asgoroth.
Ed also stated it's possible, if improbable the High God and Ao are one and the same being:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/does-the-over-god-ao-hold-any-power-outside-the-realmspace-crystal-sphere/
The published Realms and Dragonlance do share some meta connections - like Toril being an initial name for Krynn.
Which could imply that the same gigantic dragon overlords that came to Krynn from.... where exactly?..... may have come from Abeir? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2022 : 14:50:17
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Which could imply that the same gigantic dragon overlords that came to Krynn from.... where exactly?..... may have come from Abeir?
I'm fairly certain they are from some unspecified world/plane. Other than being in charge of large chunks of territory, I'm not aware of any similarities between Abeir's dragons and those Krynnish overlord dragons. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2022 : 19:21:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Which could imply that the same gigantic dragon overlords that came to Krynn from.... where exactly?..... may have come from Abeir?
I'm fairly certain they are from some unspecified world/plane. Other than being in charge of large chunks of territory, I'm not aware of any similarities between Abeir's dragons and those Krynnish overlord dragons.
well, they were your standard types, just bigger, so that's one thing. It only becomes a truism if Ao and the High God over Krynn got linked, which Ed only mentions as a possibility.
That being said, I know so little about that particular Krynn storyline..... I just know it came after the War of the Lance and someone got the idea of installing draconic overlords, and that the dragons were a lot bigger than normal. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2022 : 20:31:35
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Which could imply that the same gigantic dragon overlords that came to Krynn from.... where exactly?..... may have come from Abeir?
I'm fairly certain they are from some unspecified world/plane. Other than being in charge of large chunks of territory, I'm not aware of any similarities between Abeir's dragons and those Krynnish overlord dragons.
well, they were your standard types, just bigger, so that's one thing. It only becomes a truism if Ao and the High God over Krynn got linked, which Ed only mentions as a possibility.
That being said, I know so little about that particular Krynn storyline..... I just know it came after the War of the Lance and someone got the idea of installing draconic overlords, and that the dragons were a lot bigger than normal.
Nowhere near being an expert, but they were more powerful than regular dragons and had some sort of powerful connection to their realms -- enough, I believe to make the land more to their liking. Kinda like the epic lairs thing, now, but larger in scale. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2022 : 19:49:50
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Ed answered that question to me once, in Twitter. He said that there was no relationship between the world of the dragon overlords and Abeir.
And it makes sense. The Krynnish Overlords are just bigger common dragons with extra powers, while the dragons of Abeir include the bigger variants of the common dragons, plus completely new varieties as well (like Gawervyndhal). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2022 : 20:40:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Ed answered that question to me once, in Twitter. He said that there was no relationship between the world of the dragon overlords and Abeir.
And it makes sense. The Krynnish Overlords are just bigger common dragons with extra powers, while the dragons of Abeir include the bigger variants of the common dragons, plus completely new varieties as well (like Gawervyndhal).
It makes sense to me, as well. I think there's a tendency on the part of some folks to assume quite readily that any other world must mean Abeir. Admittedly, that would be a simpler solution, but given the fact that we know the Realms was intended to connect to a lot of other places, I prefer to think that every case of an unidentified world means it's some place not described anywhere else.
Heck, though we don't know how that person wound up in the Realms, it's canon that there's a Realms NPC from Nehwon (the world of Lankhmar). |
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Gods v Primordials
