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VaxarKun
Acolyte
12 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Aug 2022 : 10:17:16
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Finished it yesterday - I generally liked it, despite some shortcomings, however I think it's mainly due to blissful ignorance on my part, as I don't really have exposure to FR outside of Salvatore's books...I'm sort of a 'fanboy' due to not really having other exposure in the setting (with exception of some Eliminster books or books from Elaine) so I am not that bothered by a butchered setting :D But I think i know what people here feel having experienced Netflix Witcher vs books...
I'll read (and maybe comment on) sno4wy's detailed review later, but one thing that I sort of want to argue about from his earlier post in this thread is the 'mind rape' - rape indicates I think the lack of consent - and those who leave Caliedae decide to subject themselves to it. Either that or they can stay - there IS a choice. It doesn't really make it better, considering its imperfections and the seemingly easy way to bypass it (I mean, Jarlaxle could have written a novel about the place and hid it in his pouch, and apparently it would have gone unnoticed), but it's something I wanted to point out.
As for the food - it can be implied that Calideans gave it to him but it can also be argued that he simply had them in his pouch as he prepared. Perhaps exactly due to hopes of the tastes and their connection to memories. And perhaps Calideans expected him to go home soon, so maybe they didn't really put food for him (which would make them less benevolent, so probably not the case)
Most of the other things I would mention have been said already, so not much else to add. I have noticed however in the Dramatis Personae that Tazmikella and Ilnezhara are listed as eternal beings - is that a new FR thing, dragons being eternal? Long lived, sure, but eternal? I remember in Sellsword trilogy that they and other dragons were offered immortality by Zhengy, the Witch King but they two refused cause they did not want to be dragolich. And now they are suddently immortal, despite aging being mentioned on Tazmikella scales in Glacier's Edge.... so I'm kind of confused.
Oh and apparently Kimmuriel and Kimmuriel Oblodra are two different beings per that section :D
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2022 : 15:55:50
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quote:
Originally posted by VaxarKun
I have noticed however in the Dramatis Personae that Tazmikella and Ilnezhara are listed as eternal beings - is that a new FR thing, dragons being eternal? Long lived, sure, but eternal? I remember in Sellsword trilogy that they and other dragons were offered immortality by Zhengy, the Witch King but they two refused cause they did not want to be dragolich. And now they are suddently immortal, despite aging being mentioned on Tazmikella scales in Glacier's Edge.... so I'm kind of confused.
Dragons being eternal without resorting to undeath has never been a Realms thing. Dracoliches exist because eternal life has not been an option.
If this book has living, unaging dragons, that's entirely a new thing, intro'ed by this author. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2022 : 20:40:32
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quote:
Originally posted by VaxarKun
I'll read (and maybe comment on) sno4wy's detailed review later, but one thing that I sort of want to argue about from his earlier post in this thread is the 'mind rape' - rape indicates I think the lack of consent - and those who leave Caliedae decide to subject themselves to it. Either that or they can stay - there IS a choice. It doesn't really make it better, considering its imperfections and the seemingly easy way to bypass it (I mean, Jarlaxle could have written a novel about the place and hid it in his pouch, and apparently it would have gone unnoticed), but it's something I wanted to point out.
As for the food - it can be implied that Calideans gave it to him but it can also be argued that he simply had them in his pouch as he prepared. Perhaps exactly due to hopes of the tastes and their connection to memories. And perhaps Calideans expected him to go home soon, so maybe they didn't really put food for him (which would make them less benevolent, so probably not the case)
I'm not sure how consensual it is it's a choice between being forced to stay there if you don't want to get your memories wiped and leaving with your memories wiped. No matter how wonderful a place is, it's a prison to someone who doesn't want to be there. It's like RAS is trying to negate that because Callidae is so ridiculously "perfect".
Regarding the food and the lack of general security, it's difficult to explain other than poor, lazy, not well thought-out worldbuilding that the Callidaens are that way. My commentary about Jarlaxle getting away with huge carved words in his foot was about that mediocre worldbuilding, as it makes absolutely no sense that they wouldn't check given how anal they are about their secrecy, it's one of those RAS things that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2022 : 00:53:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by VaxarKun
I have noticed however in the Dramatis Personae that Tazmikella and Ilnezhara are listed as eternal beings - is that a new FR thing, dragons being eternal? Long lived, sure, but eternal? I remember in Sellsword trilogy that they and other dragons were offered immortality by Zhengy, the Witch King but they two refused cause they did not want to be dragolich. And now they are suddently immortal, despite aging being mentioned on Tazmikella scales in Glacier's Edge.... so I'm kind of confused.
Dragons being eternal without resorting to undeath has never been a Realms thing. Dracoliches exist because eternal life has not been an option.
If this book has living, unaging dragons, that's entirely a new thing, intro'ed by this author.
RA Salvatore mentions their Great Wyrms in the novel, which since Fizban Treasury of Dragons came out basically makes the sister not just Dragons, but borderline Demigods.
Great Wyrms aren't just the oldest age category for Dragons anymore, an Ancient Dragon becomes a Great Wyrm when that Dragon merges with other versions of themselves on other material Planeworlds (apparently there are version of Dragons on other worlds). Fizban's basically turned the Dragon Pantheon except Tiamat and Bahumut into semidivine Great Wyrms, who can even grant divine magic to divine casters.
So this one isn't on RA Salvatore, WotC gave his Copper Dragon sisters a promotion. #128514;#129315; |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2022 : 01:40:48
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| In context, all the usages of "great wyrms" are as in big/giant/huge dragons, not Great Wyrm the creature type. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2022 : 01:43:06
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
So, speaking as a religious person, one who really liked Drizzt's relationship with Mielikki, I should stop the series now.
It just will insult me now?
It's kind of been that way for a while, he's just getting more obvious about it. It's one of the reasons I stopped reading them (haven't read Starlight Enclave or Glacier's Edge), and I am not very religious. There was an interview I saw with him shortly after Relentless was released that heavily implied he was against the Eilistraeens because they followed Eilistraee (ie, a goddesss). He loves telling the story about the biblical story of Jericho "broke him". Basically, he's a bitter ex=Catholic projecting his views into a fictional setting, where religion=bad.
While Lolth is definitely an evil deity, it feels like he often uses her and her followers to represent religion as a whole. She was referred to an "infection". But even as far back as Cleric Quintet, there was a misrepresentation of the Ilmatarans. Salvatore presented all of them as the extremists who whip themselves, and the dwarves make fun of them. Drizzt himself has said that Mielikki is "what is in his heart", but when Catti-brie supposedly gets a decree from Mielikki to kill all goblins (which is OOC for Mielikki), rather than questioning it, Drizzt turns away from Mielikki and acts as the "moral compass" (aka non-theist) for Catti-brie.
There are many instances in the books that indicate RAS hating on *all* the gods, good and bad, and they just get more obvious as the series goes on. He's so bitter he even hates on fictional deities.
He seemed to back off from the God bashing (except for Lolth of course), especially in one huge way in reguards to
Eilistraee
Spoiler alert
Galathae is a Paladin of Eilistraee and one of his best new Aevendrow characters, heck one of his best characters to date honestly. I'm really surprised more folks aren't talking about this, BUT maybe it's because the God Galathae worships and gets her magic from isn't menioned by name when referred to in the last two novels, until nearly the end of the book. Maybe he was reluctant to do that or maybe he wanted it to build up to be a big suprise.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2022 : 01:55:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
He seemed to back off from the God bashing (except for Lolth of course), especially in one huge way in reguards to
Eilistraee
Spoiler alert
Galathae is a Paladin of Eilistraee and one of his best new Aevendrow characters, heck one of his best characters to date honestly. I'm really surprised more folks aren't talking about this, BUT maybe it's because the God Galathae worships and gets her magic from isn't menioned by name when referred to in the last two novels, until nearly the end of the book. Maybe he was reluctant to do that or maybe he wanted it to build up to be a big suprise.
There has been some discussion about how poorly portrayed a Paladin Galathae is. Well it is nice to see Eilistraee given a mention, the opinions I have seen about that is not that positive.
Though it is interesting you appear to believe Galathae is one of the best characters he has presented. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2022 : 02:04:53
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As I mentioned before in this thread, the main good thing to come from this is that Eilistraee is still there after the big drow retcon. This can make some people curious about her, and lead them to look her up and read her lore, which is a positive thing in my book.
That said, I wouldn't expect RAS to provide a faithful or positive portrayal of Eilistraee. I haven't read this book, so I can't judge the portrayal of Eilistraee's faith from first hand knowledge. What I can say is that a couple people who have read it claim that most of what Galathae does in this book amounts to abandoning allies and even trying to prevent the city council from sending help to Drizzt&co's pseudo-avengers team, that went to fight the slaadi and were protecting the city. The hilarious part is that Galathae supposedly leads the defenses of the city, so she should have been there. Instead, had it been up to her, no one would have aided the Drizzt team. Unless those people are wrong, this isn't a flattering portrayal, especially when you consider that it refers to the *first and only* faithful of Eilistraee to appear in RAS' books.
It honestly comes across as the cliché of the close-minded character who doesn't deserve their position, and acts as an antagonist even though they're not an enemy--all while the "hero" (who usually holds ideals on the opposite end of the spectrum in respect of the ones held by this character) is helping and is even doing the character's job in their place. Maybe that's why not many people are talking about this. Then again, the only other time Eilistraee was mentioned in a Drizzt book, was to highlight that she had failed, so... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 22 Aug 2022 02:24:15 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2022 : 02:19:28
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| I was expecting that book 2 would introduce the Lorendrow, but so far just the Aevendrow have been explored, perhaps the Lorendrow will be introduced in late in the next book, setting them up to be a major part of the next trilogy? |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2022 : 02:30:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
As I mentioned before in this thread, the main good thing to come from this is that Eilistraee is still there after the big drow retcon. This can make some people curious about her, and lead them to look her up and read her lore, which is a positive thing in my book.
That said, I wouldn't expect RAS to provide a faithful or positive portrayal of Eilistraee. I haven't read this book, so I can't judge the portrayal of Eilistraee's faith from first hand knowledge. What I can say is that a couple people who have read it claim that most of what Galathae does in this book is abandoning allies and even trying to prevent the city council from sending help to Drizzt&co's pseudo-avengers team, that went to fight the slaadi and were protecting the city. The hilarious part is that Galathae supposedly leads the defenses of the city, so she should have been there. Instead, had it been up to her, no one would have aided the Drizzt team. Unless those people are wrong, this isn't a flattering portrayal, especially when you consider that it refers to the *first and only* faithful of Eilistraee to appear in RAS' books.
It honestly comes across as the cliché of the close-minded character who doesn't deserve their position, and acts as an antagonist even though they're not an enemy--all while the "hero" (who usually holds ideals on the opposite end of the spectrum in respect of the ones held by this character) is helping and is even doing the character's job in their place. Maybe that's why not many people are talking about this. Then again, the only other time Eilistraee was mentioned in a Drizzt book, was to highlight that she had failed, so...
I think she likely not the only Eilistraee, the Gods various Aevendrow priests worship isn't mentioned and even with Galathae whenever her God is mentioned the God isn't named until the end of the book nearly.
And yeah Galathae gets to be more of a heroic bad ass in this book then in the last one. Have you read the book? |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2022 : 02:38:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
He seemed to back off from the God bashing (except for Lolth of course), especially in one huge way in reguards to
Eilistraee
Spoiler alert
Galathae is a Paladin of Eilistraee and one of his best new Aevendrow characters, heck one of his best characters to date honestly. I'm really surprised more folks aren't talking about this, BUT maybe it's because the God Galathae worships and gets her magic from isn't menioned by name when referred to in the last two novels, until nearly the end of the book. Maybe he was reluctant to do that or maybe he wanted it to build up to be a big suprise.
There has been some discussion about how poorly portrayed a Paladin Galathae is. Well it is nice to see Eilistraee given a mention, the opinions I have seen about that is not that positive.
Though it is interesting you appear to believe Galathae is one of the best characters he has presented.
Perhaps RA Salvatore took some of the critsms to heart, because in this book Galathae is alot more heroic. Maybe folks aren't used to Paladin's that aren't Lawful Stupid. I am curious as to what oath she is.
But yeah, a lot more heroic and self sacrificing in this book. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2022 : 02:42:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
And yeah Galathae gets to be more of a heroic bad ass in this book then in the last one. Have you read the book?
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
[...]I haven't read this book, so I can't judge the portrayal of Eilistraee's faith from first hand knowledge. What I can say is that a couple people who have read it claim that most of what Galathae does in this book is abandoning allies and even trying to prevent the city council from sending help to Drizzt&co's pseudo-avengers team, that went to fight the slaadi and were protecting the city.[...]
I want to ask, is that true? Which heroic/positive scenes does she get? Because leaving others to fight her battles makes her sound like the awful cliché character that I mentioned in the other post, and her being 'badass' wouldn't change that.
I would be relieved if that revealed to be false, though.
quote:
I think she likely not the only Eilistraee, the Gods various Aevendrow priests worship isn't mentioned and even with Galathae whenever her God is mentioned the God isn't named until the end of the book nearly.
Up to now, she is the only Eilistraean to ever appear in a RAS' book. People who read his books but don't know Eilistraee (a lot of them, actually) are going to get the idea that followers of Eilistraee let others fight their battles, on top of abandoning them (while they tend to do the opposite in the lore, tbh). That's assuming that Galathae actually did the things that I wrote in my previous comment, ofc.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 22 Aug 2022 02:47:09 |
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VaxarKun
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2022 : 11:22:00
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
I'm not sure how consensual it is it's a choice between being forced to stay there if you don't want to get your memories wiped and leaving with your memories wiped. No matter how wonderful a place is, it's a prison to someone who doesn't want to be there. It's like RAS is trying to negate that because Callidae is so ridiculously "perfect".
Regarding the food and the lack of general security, it's difficult to explain other than poor, lazy, not well thought-out worldbuilding that the Callidaens are that way. My commentary about Jarlaxle getting away with huge carved words in his foot was about that mediocre worldbuilding, as it makes absolutely no sense that they wouldn't check given how anal they are about their secrecy, it's one of those RAS things that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
I admit that it's essentially what you describe for Jarlaxle - considering the circumstances, there is no real choice for him. However, it is implied during the ritual (unless I misinterpreted - I am not native English speaker) that people might be able to leave once they were were considered Calidean - i.e. trusted and received training/discipline which could take several decades, if not more. Admittedly, this is not an option for short lived species such as humans, but it could be a viable option for elves/dwarves. Not great or anything, as it pretty much would make it prison for a long time but it's not like it would be a prison forevermore - I think.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
And yeah Galathae gets to be more of a heroic bad ass in this book then in the last one. Have you read the book?
Originally posted by Irennan
[...]I haven't read this book, so I can't judge the portrayal of Eilistraee's faith from first hand knowledge. What I can say is that a couple people who have read it claim that most of what Galathae does in this book is abandoning allies and even trying to prevent the city council from sending help to Drizzt&co's pseudo-avengers team, that went to fight the slaadi and were protecting the city.[...]
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I want to ask, is that true? Which heroic/positive scenes does she get? Because leaving others to fight her battles makes her sound like the awful cliché character that I mentioned in the other post, and her being 'badass' wouldn't change that.
I would be relieved if that revealed to be false, though.
Minor spoilers, obviously.
At the end of Starlight Enclave, she doesn't join due to 1) strict orders 2) not her fight 3) not having reason to believe the frozen people are alive.
In Glacier's Edge, when retreating, it is mentioned that she does want to go back, to settle it once and for all, although this appears to be just hope before reality check, as later there was no mention of this, and neither did she brought it up when Jarlaxle confirmed that technically the frozen people were alive. It is true that she didn't support Jarlaxle when he asked for rescue force, but I don't believe she actively tried to prevent the rescuce force either - none wanted to send forces after all - too risky and all that. She also mentioned that part of this decision - to let it go and move is - is that while what happened is tragic and all that, they are, in the end, fighting a border-war with the giants/slaadi with ocassional skirmishes, neither winning, neither losing, but at least they survive (or so she claims).
Later on the book she does get heroic scene, which she did not have to do, but decided to do anyway, and so she was willing to sacrifice herself to save another, which was - to my limited knowledge - very paladinish. Overall, it feels like as if she generally puts Calidea before her goddess which is bit weird for a paladin I think. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2022 : 15:50:28
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quote:
Originally posted by VaxarKun
Minor spoilers, obviously.
At the end of Starlight Enclave, she doesn't join due to 1) strict orders 2) not her fight 3) not having reason to believe the frozen people are alive.
In Glacier's Edge, when retreating, it is mentioned that she does want to go back, to settle it once and for all, although this appears to be just hope before reality check, as later there was no mention of this, and neither did she brought it up when Jarlaxle confirmed that technically the frozen people were alive. It is true that she didn't support Jarlaxle when he asked for rescue force, but I don't believe she actively tried to prevent the rescuce force either - none wanted to send forces after all - too risky and all that. She also mentioned that part of this decision - to let it go and move is - is that while what happened is tragic and all that, they are, in the end, fighting a border-war with the giants/slaadi with ocassional skirmishes, neither winning, neither losing, but at least they survive (or so she claims).
Thanks for the clarification. Well, at least it doesn't sound as bad as I was fearing, but it doesn't sound good either. As for the "trying to prevent" thingy, what I've read basically is that she advocated against sending forces when the council was considering the matter. That others also didn't want to send forces doesn't change much re: this character.
quote:
Later on the book she does get heroic scene, which she did not have to do, but decided to do anyway, and so she was willing to sacrifice herself to save another, which was - to my limited knowledge - very paladinish. Overall, it feels like as if she generally puts Calidea before her goddess which is bit weird for a paladin I think.
Generally speaking, priest(esse)s of Eilistraee act as an extension of the role that Eilistraee chose as a mother for the drow. Teaching, nurturing, and protecting their community are top priorities, as well as fostering friendships with nearby non-drow societies. On the topic of giants and slaadi, the priest(esse)s also actively hunt monsters that threaten their community (or, well, any community of any race near their area, even if it isn't under their responsibility).
Anyway, Galathae isn't a priestess, but I guess in absence of one, paladins of Eilistraee wouldn't be that far off the role, so having Callidae as #1 priority fits the bill. Depends on their oath, though. Especially 5e paladins, who aren't necesarily tied to a deity.
But, uh, sacrifice? Is Galathae dead now? Because it would be kinda hilarious if that were the case. Would you be willing to summarize that heroic scene (dw about spoilers, ofc)? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 22 Aug 2022 16:01:35 |
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VaxarKun
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2022 : 17:23:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Generally speaking, priest(esse)s of Eilistraee act as an extension of the role that Eilistraee chose as a mother for the drow. Teaching, nurturing, and protecting their community are top priorities, as well as fostering friendships with nearby non-drow societies. On the topic of giants and slaadi, the priest(esse)s also actively hunt monsters that threaten their community (or, well, any community of any race near their area, even if it isn't under their responsibility).
Anyway, Galathae isn't a priestess, but I guess in absence of one, paladins of Eilistraee wouldn't be that far off the role, so having Callidae as #1 priority fits the bill. Depends on their oath, though. Especially 5e paladins, who aren't necesarily tied to a deity.
Thanks for this - I always like to broaden my FR knowledge with general stuff like this.
Also, it cannot be ruled out that there are no priestesses of Eilistraee in Calidae - maybe they just haven't been mentioned (for reasonsI guess). What was mentioned however is that she wasn't the only paladin in Calidae.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
But, uh, sacrifice? Is Galathae dead now? Because it would be kinda hilarious if that were the case. Would you be willing to summarize that heroic scene (dw about spoilers, ofc)?
Spoilers below (might need to highlight it per the preview). And everyone, feel free to correct me if i missed anything.
Spoiler start
No, she is alive.
After confirming about the existence of the Breathing Rooms (and the polar worms within) that Jarlaxle was alluding to in the previous book, they started to send down strike teams to 1) figure out the size of infestation 2) to kill as much polar worms as possible. As the crystal cavern was below of Calidae, they have made several shafts and used harnesses and ropes and whatnot for quick extraction - so if they were starting to get outnumbered or the protection against heat was weakening, they could be pulled out in a relatively quick manner.
As was to be expected, they were losing, and were starting to retreat when Galathe (who got a disjointed shoulder during the fight) noticed that there was an injured dwarf lying on a crystal bit further away, polar worms advancing to him. So being hurt/wounded, and surrounded by cries of retreat, she decided against retreating and went for the dwarf - and when it turned out that her rope was not long enough, she just cut it simple, to get to the dwarf - again instead of retreating. And considering she saluted to her retreating team prior to cutting the rope, i believe she was willing to sacrifice herself.
So she pretty much fought 2 young worms and one big one (mostly one at a time) determined to cut a clear path for the dwarf before she dies, and when she got a little bit time after initial pushback, she ended up healing the dwarf instead of herself, but then all 3 worms attacked at the same time and she - and the dwarf - ended up being rescued by a mage.
It is not known I think whether the dwarf had his rope in one piece or not - if not, her action was Lawful Stupid imo. If it was in one piece, perhaps she thought to escape that way, but then it wasn't a 'willing to sacrifice' moment, so dunno what to think about it. What is a fact that instead of retreating, she went on to save the dwarf.
Spoiler end |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2022 : 22:53:21
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quote:
Originally posted by VaxarKun
Thanks for this - I always like to broaden my FR knowledge with general stuff like this.
Also, it cannot be ruled out that there are no priestesses of Eilistraee in Calidae - maybe they just haven't been mentioned (for reasonsI guess). What was mentioned however is that she wasn't the only paladin in Calidae.
My pleasure. As for priest(esse)s of Eilistraee in Callidae, yeah, maybe there are more, but my comment was based on what we know now.
quote:
Spoilers below (might need to highlight it per the preview). And everyone, feel free to correct me if i missed anything.
Spoiler start
No, she is alive.
After confirming about the existence of the Breathing Rooms (and the polar worms within) that Jarlaxle was alluding to in the previous book, they started to send down strike teams to 1) figure out the size of infestation 2) to kill as much polar worms as possible. As the crystal cavern was below of Calidae, they have made several shafts and used harnesses and ropes and whatnot for quick extraction - so if they were starting to get outnumbered or the protection against heat was weakening, they could be pulled out in a relatively quick manner.
As was to be expected, they were losing, and were starting to retreat when Galathe (who got a disjointed shoulder during the fight) noticed that there was an injured dwarf lying on a crystal bit further away, polar worms advancing to him. So being hurt/wounded, and surrounded by cries of retreat, she decided against retreating and went for the dwarf - and when it turned out that her rope was not long enough, she just cut it simple, to get to the dwarf - again instead of retreating. And considering she saluted to her retreating team prior to cutting the rope, i believe she was willing to sacrifice herself.
So she pretty much fought 2 young worms and one big one (mostly one at a time) determined to cut a clear path for the dwarf before she dies, and when she got a little bit time after initial pushback, she ended up healing the dwarf instead of herself, but then all 3 worms attacked at the same time and she - and the dwarf - ended up being rescued by a mage.
It is not known I think whether the dwarf had his rope in one piece or not - if not, her action was Lawful Stupid imo. If it was in one piece, perhaps she thought to escape that way, but then it wasn't a 'willing to sacrifice' moment, so dunno what to think about it. What is a fact that instead of retreating, she went on to save the dwarf.
Spoiler end
Thanks for the summary.
It could still be a "willing to sacrifice" moment. Spoilers:
If the dwarf's rope had been cut, then going to the "rescue" would have probaby been just a dumb move that would have killed both, so I'm willing to give for granted that she had noticed that it wasn't cut (though it's a case of bad writing: it amounts to withholding information on a whim rather than because of what the PoV perceives/knows (or biased towards), and structuring the scene in a way that could yank the reader out of the flow). Anyway, even if Galathae knew to have a chance of get out, the odds were still stacked against her, so you could say that she was willing to sacrifice herself regardless (going into danger with the knowledge that you're not going to achieve anything is stupidity, not courage or selflessness).
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 22 Aug 2022 23:56:21 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2022 : 00:37:17
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quote:
Originally posted by VaxarKun
Finished it yesterday - I generally liked it, despite some shortcomings, however I think it's mainly due to blissful ignorance on my part, as I don't really have exposure to FR outside of Salvatore's books...I'm sort of a 'fanboy' due to not really having other exposure in the setting (with exception of some Eliminster books or books from Elaine) so I am not that bothered by a butchered setting :D But I think i know what people here feel having experienced Netflix Witcher vs books...
Lol, I have noticed that many are fanboys when their only exposure to Forgotten Realms is the Drizzt books. I myself started my Forgotten Realms journey via the Drizzt books, and I'll admit, I loved them in high school. But I also started branching out and reading other books set in Forgotten Realms, and the more I read, the more I realized how...inaccurate RAS' books were. This was further strengthened when I noticed some...themes in RAS' books that were clearly him projecting some inner feelings, and also interviews I saw with him.
I'm not saying you can't enjoy the books. We all have our tastes after all. But I do encourage you to read other Realms book (the Starlight and Shadows trilogy by Elaine Cunningham is great if you want to learn more about Eilsitraee). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2022 : 04:07:14
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Lol, I have noticed that many are fanboys when their only exposure to Forgotten Realms is the Drizzt books. I myself started my Forgotten Realms journey via the Drizzt books, and I'll admit, I loved them in high school. But I also started branching out and reading other books set in Forgotten Realms, and the more I read, the more I realized how...inaccurate RAS' books were. This was further strengthened when I noticed some...themes in RAS' books that were clearly him projecting some inner feelings, and also interviews I saw with him.
I'm not saying you can't enjoy the books. We all have our tastes after all. But I do encourage you to read other Realms book (the Starlight and Shadows trilogy by Elaine Cunningham is great if you want to learn more about Eilsitraee).
I started with the Avatar books and the first couple of Pools ones, myself. I did read the Drizzt stuff early on, and I enjoyed it for the first dozen books or so, and then the appeal started waning for me, until the ridiculous assumption in the Thousand Orcs books killed it for me.
The fight scenes never really worked for me, though. There was one particular fight scene that just didn't make any sense, the way it was described. I grabbed some GI Joe figures and recreated the scene, following every line in the book and moving them accordingly -- and even doing that, it simply didn't work as described.
I wish they'd not taken all the older books out of print; I will always recommend the Finder's Stone trilogy and the Songs and Swords books to any and all newcomers to the setting. (I actually told Jeff Grubb that, when I met him at GenCon one year -- and he immediately started gushing about how great Elaine's stuff was) |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Aug 2022 04:07:39 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2022 : 04:19:06
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| Drizzt was also my entry into the Realms, and I delved into Realms novels out of a desire to better understand the world that a character I really liked lived in to better understand that character. Instead, I fell hard for the world and its stories told from many different authors. I also found at as a general rule, those other books are better than the Drizzt ones. It's hard to say exactly what made me fall so hard for the Realms, but I think the sense that the creatives worked together, built off of each other, and respected each other was a big part of that. When I first noticed how much Salvatore didn't fall into that category was around the time that I started growing disillusioned with his work. |
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VaxarKun
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2022 : 08:58:59
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by VaxarKun
Finished it yesterday - I generally liked it, despite some shortcomings, however I think it's mainly due to blissful ignorance on my part, as I don't really have exposure to FR outside of Salvatore's books...I'm sort of a 'fanboy' due to not really having other exposure in the setting (with exception of some Eliminster books or books from Elaine) so I am not that bothered by a butchered setting :D But I think i know what people here feel having experienced Netflix Witcher vs books...
Lol, I have noticed that many are fanboys when their only exposure to Forgotten Realms is the Drizzt books. I myself started my Forgotten Realms journey via the Drizzt books, and I'll admit, I loved them in high school. But I also started branching out and reading other books set in Forgotten Realms, and the more I read, the more I realized how...inaccurate RAS' books were. This was further strengthened when I noticed some...themes in RAS' books that were clearly him projecting some inner feelings, and also interviews I saw with him.
I'm not saying you can't enjoy the books. We all have our tastes after all. But I do encourage you to read other Realms book (the Starlight and Shadows trilogy by Elaine Cunningham is great if you want to learn more about Eilsitraee).
I have actually read the Liriel trilogy, as well as another 5 books from Elaine that were about a half elf woman with a moon sword IIRC (elfsong, etc). And as I mentioned, I also have read a few Elminster books (the series about his beginning, myth drannor, etc). I have also read the Cormyr saga as well, but the majority of the books I read were related to Drows - war of the spider queen, lady penitent, evermeet (well, somewhat related)
I have been rather limited in what I could read considering I was reading translated books and quite a few books were actually not translated (still not I think) - so while I started with Drizzt (Orc king, bought it due to cool cover) I somewhat stayed there due to limited options, but generally loved the setting (from what I could tell at least)
This has changed now of course, as I have better understanding of English and can read books in English (unless difficult language) and also because I recently...acquired a bunch of forgotten realms books in epub format (276 books). I'm still sorting through that but I'm fairly sure many good books are there, and I believe this forum has a thread about recommendations so I'll eventually get through some of the better ones I assume. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2022 : 02:41:33
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| For those interested, I've just posted the next section of my detailed review/analysis. This section discusses what I feel to be the neutral aspects of the book, and as with the rest of my review, it contains spoilers: https://archiveofourown.org/works/40921692/chapters/103615065 |
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VaxarKun
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2022 : 11:44:47
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
For those interested, I've just posted the next section of my detailed review/analysis. This section discusses what I feel to be the neutral aspects of the book, and as with the rest of my review, it contains spoilers: https://archiveofourown.org/works/40921692/chapters/103615065
Thanks for continuing your review.
Couple of thoughts/observations.
[Skin Color]
Like you mentioned, it doesn't really matter, but certain aevendrow were described as having different skin colors/hues, so it's not unreasonable to assume that Dabnay's skin color is just one variation of underdark drow. Again, not that it really matters
[darkvision]
This is more interesting as it could have bigger implications, but some of it do seem like oversight from RAS.
My leading theory on the lack of darkvision for aevendrow - until I read your post - was that drow in general did not have darkvision before Crown Wars/fleeing to underdark/north/whatever, and that darkvision, much like orb of darkness, levitation and faerie fire was a result of them living in the underdark, a skill received through generations. This theory seemed to be supported by the fact that seemingly (certain?) Blaspheme doesn't have darkvision either - e.g. the usage of torches at one tunnel in Menzoberranzan.
But if surface elves do have darkvision (which I got to learn from your post, and also something RAS might retcon?) then it just would not work...
I say it can have bigger implications, as if Jarlaxle's apparent lack of darkvision, as well as the torch in Menzoberranzan are not oversights, then we are led to believe that the drows have managed to survive in the underdark by using light sources, which seems really silly. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2022 : 19:24:17
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Sno4wy, thanks for the new section. The darkvision thing would have pulled me completely out of the story. Heck, even half-elves have darkvision so that doesn't really make sense. Now, if RAS has said something about their diet suppresses their darkvision, that would have been fine and that could even affect new arrivals (but, he would had to have said something about them freaking out when they discover they are now night-blind).
I always assumed there was some kind of skin tone variation among the drow simply because of the art with different depictions of drow. One of my first exposures to drow in art was the cover of the 1e Queen of the Spiders adventure book where the drow was depicted with dark brown skin. Dark grey would be just as useful in an underground setting as obsidian. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2022 : 22:39:05
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
I always assumed there was some kind of skin tone variation among the drow simply because of the art with different depictions of drow. One of my first exposures to drow in art was the cover of the 1e Queen of the Spiders adventure book where the drow was depicted with dark brown skin. Dark grey would be just as useful in an underground setting as obsidian.
According to WotC (and the reason they retconned drow skin tones), it's apparently hard for artists to get black skin right.
Black skin on drow doesn't make any sense, though... Dark skin is usually the result of more exposure to sunlight; critters in places without sunlight are often very pale, or even transparent (in the ocean). And even if drow skin tones were dark for being in a dark place, all the white hair would negate that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2022 : 23:21:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
I always assumed there was some kind of skin tone variation among the drow simply because of the art with different depictions of drow. One of my first exposures to drow in art was the cover of the 1e Queen of the Spiders adventure book where the drow was depicted with dark brown skin. Dark grey would be just as useful in an underground setting as obsidian.
According to WotC (and the reason they retconned drow skin tones), it's apparently hard for artists to get black skin right.
Black skin on drow doesn't make any sense, though... Dark skin is usually the result of more exposure to sunlight; critters in places without sunlight are often very pale, or even transparent (in the ocean). And even if drow skin tones were dark for being in a dark place, all the white hair would negate that.
"Crossbows at the ready! Aim for the white top!" |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2022 : 03:25:57
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
I always assumed there was some kind of skin tone variation among the drow simply because of the art with different depictions of drow. One of my first exposures to drow in art was the cover of the 1e Queen of the Spiders adventure book where the drow was depicted with dark brown skin. Dark grey would be just as useful in an underground setting as obsidian.
I wrote a more extensive analysis about why art of drow is the way that it is, but basically it's what Wooly said, it isn't possible to exactly depict the kind of skin that they have, and it leads to a lot of variations in interpretations of it. This information is now outdated because the new canon direction appears to be that drow have gray skin, but here's the post I wrote regarding drow skin prior to that change: https://artemis-entreri.tumblr.com/post/173570235383/the-lore-the-phb-salvatores-books-or-whatever |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2022 : 03:53:51
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| That is the funny thing. I don't count any artwork created showing an imaginary creature/person to be exact. Every artist has their own interpretation. So make the drow just a tiny bit grey. They could be a just bit "ashy" and in need of some skin lotion. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2022 : 05:22:16
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Vale of the Mage came out in 1989. Whether or not that drow on the cover actually has black skin, it looks black.
For WotC to say, more than 10 years later, "Oh, artists can't do it so we're changing it" just didn't work for me.
If they'd come up with some in-game explanation, that would have been one thing. But instead, to say "we couldn't get artists to do what we paid them to do, so we'll retcon decades of published information, instead" -- that's just not right.
WotC has been hyper-focused on the drow for a long time and went out of their way to center novels and events on them -- they could have come up with an in-setting explanation, instead of a retcon, if they had cared enough to.
I don't care that the skin tone was changed; I care about the fact that continuity was brushed aside as an inconvenience, when making the change. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2022 : 04:12:56
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Bill Willingham did the best drow, hands down, albeit in black and white for the most part. He didn't seem to have much issue. Although I guess he was allowed to draw them as they were first depicted in the sources. That mandate appears to be very much a thing of the past now. Which is why I laugh when fans talk about a Drizzt movie. Never going to happen. Ever.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2022 : 04:35:51
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Which is why I laugh when fans talk about a Drizzt movie. Never going to happen. Ever.
-- George Krashos
I've been saying that since around 2000, myself. I've gotten so tired of all the fanbois screaming about how it would be an automatic blockbuster and not problematic at all that I've simply given up on trying to say anything about it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Glacier's Edge coming later this year
