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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It's a mistake to think of places in the Realms as being archetypes of real-world places.

There are sections of the Realms, away from the core Heartlands area, that were heavily influenced by real-world areas (especially Kara-Tur), but Halruaa isn't one of them.

Forgive me if I'm not formatting my reply very well. I'm used to MS Outlook. LOL
Thank you for taking the time to respond. It's appreciated.
All are hypotheticals. Let's keep that in mind please.
I will attempt to keep this discussion within the context of:
script writing, cinematics, visuals & overall story content.
Let's say I'm the executive producer. Nowadays known more as a
"show runner" for the sake of this discussion.


Why would it be a mistake to think of Unther. Mulhorand, etc as archetypes of ancient Eygpt? Or the culture of Halruaa having elements of ancient Indian architecture or dress? Why is it a mistake to think that as a movie producer the visuals I present to my audience (regardless of the region in Faerun) have elements of those ancient earth cultures?


And even for those real-world rip-offs that were crudely shoehorned into the setting, the translation of "real-world society without magic or verifiable proof of the divine" to a setting that has those things was not handled well.

Now you have my attention. You use terms like "rip-offs", "crudely shoehorned", "not handled well" etc. As if there's a bitterness there.
Can you expound on that? I'd like to know your thoughts.



If you're writing a script for a movie or series, and it's based on an IP held by WotC, you'd do well to contact them, first. They've not taken unsolicited material in a long time, and they've their own plans for bringing this stuff to the screen.

I'll take that under advisement. Thank you.
Do you know of any future plans, aside from the Chris Pine movie we've heard so much about? Will the new WoTC CEO Miss Williams be as interested in a Forgotten Realms movie as Chris Cocks was? Maybe! :-) It's all in the pitch Rupert.


If you want to write something based on a magical India, you'd be far better off building your own setting. And you'd need to keep in mind that having magic and active deities and such is going to change that society's history and culture. It's not going to be "the same as real-world X, but with magic!" because those differing elements are going to shape things in different ways.

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Originally posted by ElfBane

You don't need bring FR stuff into an India-like setting. The subcontinent has a vast history, and a still-vibrant pantheon of oodles of Gods, Goddesses and their Demi's. And if you mix in the Middle-eastern mythology you gain the Djinn and their trove of magic.

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Originally posted by deserk

Al-Andalus is probably a better image to go for, since Halruaa was settled by Netherese refugees that mixed with local Tashalan tribes. So kind of a combination of West and East, or in this case, North and South.

The Shining Lands (Durpar, Var the Golden and Estagund) seems to have a lot of Indian motifs, with faith of Adama bearing similarities to Buddhism and Hinduism, but not overtly, I'd say. Also they have a few Sanskrit titles like Rajah and as well an Urdu one, namely Nawab.

I definitely agree with what the other posters have said, however I definitely see the value in drawing inspiration from RW places, since it can help you visualize the setting better, which is quite important for a DM, that they feel they get the right tone and flavour from what the sourcebooks describe. And ultimately I do think we all draw from RL influences undeniably. But there is a difference between being inspired by something, and copying something word for word. The published Realms have had a history with a lot of overt copy-pastes of RW places (Maztica, Hordelands, Kara-tur, etc.) which is why there are many Realms fans that have an aversion to any parallels with historical or RW countries, which I certainly sympathize with.

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Originally posted by Rymac

Never thought of Halrua having a real-world analogue for inspiration. It's technically a successor-state/civilization of Netheril.

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Originally posted by HellixHarpell

While I would agree with that. Can I complain a bit here? The Netheril boxed set was a total disappointment w/re to artwork. It felt rushed. *There's backstory there that I won't get into.*
I just subbed the RW analogue as a combination of ancient Persia & India. Especially for those enclaves that floated in the south. Those of the North would have buildings that would be best suited to the colder weather.
Architecture and culture is very much affected by climate.
And even as I compose this Guy Fieri is visiting an Indian restaurant on the food network! Curry anyone?
H.H.H.

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Originally posted by Delnyn

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Originally posted by HellixHarpell

While I would agree with that. Can I complain a bit here? The Netheril boxed set was a total disappointment w/re to artwork. It felt rushed. *There's backstory there that I won't get into.*
I just subbed the RW analogue as a combination of ancient Persia & India. Especially for those enclaves that floated in the south. Those of the North would have buildings that would be best suited to the colder weather.
Architecture and culture is very much affected by climate.
And even as I compose this Guy Fieri is visiting an Indian restaurant on the food network! Curry anyone?
H.H.H.

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I share your disappointment with the Netheril boxed set. FYI, the Netherese arcanists magically forced the climate to be uniformly warm to support agriculture year round.

On the main topic, I would not bother at all trying to compare Halruua to any real-world land at any point in history. If you want to go outside the Realms, consider Hogwarts of the Harry Potter world as a starting point.

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Originally posted by Delnyn

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Originally posted by HellixHarpell

While I would agree with that. Can I complain a bit here? The Netheril boxed set was a total disappointment w/re to artwork. It felt rushed. *There's backstory there that I won't get into.*
I just subbed the RW analogue as a combination of ancient Persia & India. Especially for those enclaves that floated in the south. Those of the North would have buildings that would be best suited to the colder weather.
Architecture and culture is very much affected by climate.
And even as I compose this Guy Fieri is visiting an Indian restaurant on the food network! Curry anyone?
H.H.H.

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I share your disappointment with the Netheril boxed set. FYI, the Netherese arcanists magically forced the climate to be uniformly warm to support agriculture year round.

On the main topic, I would not bother at all trying to compare Halruua to any real-world land at any point in history. If you want to go outside the Realms, consider Hogwarts of the Harry Potter world as a starting point.

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Originally posted by TomCosta

So Elaine Cunningham wrote a whole trilogy set in Halruaa and based on all previous descriptions, images, and those books, I see little to nothing that is reminiscent of mythological India. That said, you can do what you like of course.

The closest things to mythological India are found closer to northern Zakhara/Al-Qadim. Someone else pointed out that the Shining Lands with their beliefs in the Adama, heading further south you reach the Utter East which seems to have a different mythological India flavor, keep heading south into Zakhara proper and your get the Ruined Kingdoms, which have more India flavor and head east into the southern Jungles of Kara-Tur and there are several kingdoms that seem to have an Indian flavor. And all that said in the western part of those jungles several folks have placed the 3.5E Oriental Adventures web enhancement setting of Mahasarpa which is the most obvious mythological India flavored thing of all.

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You don't need bring FR stuff into an India-like setting. The subcontinent has a vast history, and a still-vibrant pantheon of oodles of Gods, Goddesses and their Demi's. And if you mix in the Middle-eastern mythology you gain the Djinn and their trove of magic.

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Originally posted by Charles Phipps
One of my players is an Indian American woman who basically asked, "Where in the Realms can someone who looks like me be from?"

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

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Originally posted by Charles Phipps
One of my players is an Indian American woman who basically asked, "Where in the Realms can someone who looks like me be from?"

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I think this is a challenging question, but worthy of discussion. My thoughts on this could definitely use some alternative perspectives, as I come from a specific cultural heritage with all the unseen biases that entails.

As conceived by Ed, the Realms does NOT have real world analogs. In fact, if you look at the old gray box, there are no discussions of what humans look like. So the answer to her question probably should be "any where you want."

In the 2e Realms, various writers gradually (e.g. Tethens, Mulan) or deliberately (The Horde, Kara-Tur, Maztica, Al-Qadim) introduce some real world analogs to Earth cultures, so we have pseudo-Mongolia, pseudo-East Asia, pseudo-Mesoamerica, and pseudo-Arabia. However, that's clearly not an exhaustive list of Earth-like cultures and there's not a mapping for every ethnic group. While I never liked that aspect of TSR's stewardship, that was the choice of the company at the time.

In 3e, Tom's fantastic work on languages in Dragon magazine was consolidated down in the 3e FRCS into a smaller more manageable number. In so doing, the authors of the 3e FRCS did lose some of the richness he had worked out. Some of the work I contributed to in Races of Faerun ended up with a set of human ethnicities built off scattered 2e references (e.g. Tethens). Again, the total number was quite finite for space reasons, although you can see us hinting at far more. Some of those ethnicities clearly resembled Earth-analogs (e.g. Chultans, Illuskans) while others did not (e.g. Mulan, Sossrim, Tethens). This also effectively excluded a lot of potential "looks like me" analogs in the Realms, which is a significant weakness in my opinion.

If a player quite reasonably asks, "where can a character be from who looks like me?", the first question would be do you mean physically or culturally or both? Does she want to play a character who looks Indian or a character is from a pseudo-Indian fantasy analog or both?

My personal preference would be to de-emphasize cultural similarities to Earth analogs across the board, as they tend to be poorly conceived interpretations by Western authors without cultural anchors, but to be extremely inclusive in terms of appearance. In other words, if you want to play someone who "looks like you", I would make sure to make that possible in any part of the Realms. But I don't think an "Indian-looking character" necessarily needs to be from a Realms culture that is focused on rakshasa and yuan-ti and sticks out like a sore thumb in Waterdeep.

So, I hope that makes sense, and I welcome thoughts from those with other perspectives.

--Eric

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Originally posted by Charles Phipps

To be fair, the Red Wizards of Thay are going to be the exception to the "no RL parallels" even if you dump Kara-Tur, Maztica, and all the other tacked on ones.

Because the Mulhorand are very likely not Ancient Egyptian analogs but ACTUAL Ancient Egyptians transplanted Stargate style.

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:

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Originally posted by Charles Phipps
One of my players is an Indian American woman who basically asked, "Where in the Realms can someone who looks like me be from?"

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I think this is a challenging question, but worthy of discussion. My thoughts on this could definitely use some alternative perspectives, as I come from a specific cultural heritage with all the unseen biases that entails.

As conceived by Ed, the Realms does NOT have real world analogs. In fact, if you look at the old gray box, there are no discussions of what humans look like. So the answer to her question probably should be "any where you want."

In the 2e Realms, various writers gradually (e.g. Tethens, Mulan) or deliberately (The Horde, Kara-Tur, Maztica, Al-Qadim) introduce some real world analogs to Earth cultures, so we have pseudo-Mongolia, pseudo-East Asia, pseudo-Mesoamerica, and pseudo-Arabia. However, that's clearly not an exhaustive list of Earth-like cultures and there's not a mapping for every ethnic group. While I never liked that aspect of TSR's stewardship, that was the choice of the company at the time.

In 3e, Tom's fantastic work on languages in Dragon magazine was consolidated down in the 3e FRCS into a smaller more manageable number. In so doing, the authors of the 3e FRCS did lose some of the richness he had worked out. Some of the work I contributed to in Races of Faerun ended up with a set of human ethnicities built off scattered 2e references (e.g. Tethens). Again, the total number was quite finite for space reasons, although you can see us hinting at far more. Some of those ethnicities clearly resembled Earth-analogs (e.g. Chultans, Illuskans) while others did not (e.g. Mulan, Sossrim, Tethens). This also effectively excluded a lot of potential "looks like me" analogs in the Realms, which is a significant weakness in my opinion.

If a player quite reasonably asks, "where can a character be from who looks like me?", the first question would be do you mean physically or culturally or both? Does she want to play a character who looks Indian or a character is from a pseudo-Indian fantasy analog or both?

My personal preference would be to de-emphasize cultural similarities to Earth analogs across the board, as they tend to be poorly conceived interpretations by Western authors without cultural anchors, but to be extremely inclusive in terms of appearance. In other words, if you want to play someone who "looks like you", I would make sure to make that possible in any part of the Realms. But I don't think an "Indian-looking character" necessarily needs to be from a Realms culture that is focused on rakshasa and yuan-ti and sticks out like a sore thumb in Waterdeep.

So, I hope that makes sense, and I welcome thoughts from those with other perspectives.

--Eric

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Originally posted by Charles Phipps

To be fair, the Red Wizards of Thay are going to be the exception to the "no RL parallels" even if you dump Kara-Tur, Maztica, and all the other tacked on ones.

Because the Mulhorand are very likely not Ancient Egyptian analogs but ACTUAL Ancient Egyptians transplanted Stargate style.

Which I always liked and found clever rather than weird.

It also means Ssass Tam should be voiced/played by Raimi Malek.
informative and well-written.

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

https://www.tsrarchive.com/3o/Mahasarpa.pdf

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Charles Phipps

To be fair, the Red Wizards of Thay are going to be the exception to the "no RL parallels" even if you dump Kara-Tur, Maztica, and all the other tacked on ones.

Because the Mulhorand are very likely not Ancient Egyptian analogs but ACTUAL Ancient Egyptians transplanted Stargate style.

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Actual Egyptians, yes, but transported to a different environ, with different neighbors and chances for intermixing with them, and then a few thousand years of time tacked on -- so today's Thayans wouldn't necessarily look like the founders of Thay, and those founders wouldn't necessarily look like the folks that had previously hung out on the Nile.

(Though, as I recall, it's never been explicitly stated that those folks were grabbed from Earth... It could have been the world from the Stargate movie, for all we know!)

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Originally posted by deserk

It was interesting that Ed mentioned in a tweet that the Mar (the indigenous people of the Utter East) have gray skin and eye colours that range from gold to crimson. So there are human ethnicities in FR that quite literally have no parallel on Earth, not just on a cultural level, but physically as well.

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Originally posted by HellixHarpell

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

https://www.tsrarchive.com/3o/Mahasarpa.pdf

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Eric. Your personal website link doesn't work btw..

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Originally posted by HellixHarpell


The Realms was already a diverse world before the idiots at Amazon decided to ruin Tolkien's masterpiece with their ill-conceived vision.
*And create a huge stink among fantasy fans.*

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Originally posted by HellixHarpell
Thanks Thomas! I totally missed Mahasarpa. Do you know if James Wyatt is still doing games design? I think he developed the campaign supplement right?

H.H.H.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by HellixHarpell


The Realms was already a diverse world before the idiots at Amazon decided to ruin Tolkien's masterpiece with their ill-conceived vision.
*And create a huge stink among fantasy fans.*

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Really? It's not even out yet, but it's already ruined everything Tolkien did?

I get tired of "fans" rushing to condemn something that doesn't immediately appear to conform exactly to their own personal desires, especially when the thing being judged isn't even out yet.

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