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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Oct 2021 : 14:51:59
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Hi there.
This is something of an overly-particular thread, but I do enjoy discovering the minutiae in the Realms that often evades my notice. Basically, there's a priest of Hanali Celanil that can be accurately described as "elfin Rapunzel". This lady is otherwise the same as most sun elves except for one additional noteworthy feature: her blue eyes. Setting lore is clear on this matter...it's not a sun elf trait.
quote:
Sun Elf
Sun elves typically had green eyes, though golden ones were also common, often with a liquid appearance, and silver, black, hazel, or copper hues had also been heard of.
Yes, I could simply declare "They (i.e., the sun elves) are that way.". However, as always, I would rather work within the canon before putting my own quill to parchment. Two simple solutions come to mind.
1. There is a human ancestor in her bloodline.
or
2. There is a moon elf ancestor in her bloodline.
quote:
Moon Elf
Moon elf eyes, like those of other elves, were very commonly green, although some were blue as well. All exhibited a characteristic best described as golden flecks speckled through the iris.
Other options are variations of "A wizard did it.": magical curses, the byproduct of a Wish spell, a residual alteration from a Polymorph spell, et cetera. Presently, I'm leaning towards the moon elf explanation, if only because it could result in a nice bit of drama later on down the line (albeit less than the human ancestry factor, granted).
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What do you all think? Am I missing another plausible reason?
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Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2021 : 15:03:20
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| Ancestry is a good path to go. I have a rock gnome with green eyes. Her great grandmother was a forest gnome. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2021 : 16:05:06
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A trace of moon elf blood would work, though the elven ancestries usually go one way or the other, instead of mixing.
You could also just have it be some odd one-off thing. Drow generally have red eyes, but there's one with purple eyes (Lord Ginsu) and one with amber (Liriel Baenre).
As long as it's something minor like eye color, I'd not sweat it. If you were giving your character antennae or making her 7 feet tall or something dramatically out of the norm, then you've got some 'splaining to do. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2021 : 02:29:59
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| just because your specifically doing blue as a color... and IF you're doing it in the 5e timeline (around 1490's)... what if the blue is because the elf was touched or born during the spellplague (such that at a hundred years old they're becoming an adult). The blue of their eyes might be particularly stunningly blue. Something where a human that sees them wouldn't be like "huh, they have eyes like us" and instead "wow, its like looking at a sapphire". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2021 : 17:57:09
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| Drizzt has purple eyes because Josidiah Starym is an ancestor, Liriel has amber eyes because (for some reason) Gromph Baenre (her father) had amber eyes. So the 'easiest' explanation is ancestry. But I really like the idea of it being an effect of the spellplague if you're playing the current timeline. There's also the idea that she magically changed them for reasons of beauty ('hey look! my eyes are different from all those other boring elven waifus!')...but I find that idea a bit meh. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2021 : 18:36:42
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Drizzt has purple eyes because Josidiah Starym is an ancestor, Liriel has amber eyes because (for some reason) Gromph Baenre (her father) had amber eyes. So the 'easiest' explanation is ancestry.
I must have missed the thing about Drizzt being related to Josidiah Starym... That doesn't explain his eyes, though, since it's canon that elven ancestries don't blend, they breed true to one parent or the other.
And Gromph's amber eyes are still not standard issue for drow.
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
But I really like the idea of it being an effect of the spellplague if you're playing the current timeline. There's also the idea that she magically changed them for reasons of beauty ('hey look! my eyes are different from all those other boring elven waifus!')...but I find that idea a bit meh.
If I was going with the ancestry explanation, I'd go for something exotic. Maybe one of her ancestors was from one of the Outer Planes, and the eye color is the only remaining hint of that ancestry, or maybe there's a fae somewhere in the family tree.
This sidesteps the issue of elven ancestries not mixing with each other: it's something else that's in the mix. |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2021 : 21:00:05
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| I also haven't heard that thing about Starym being Drizzt's ancestor. Though it's true that elves don't blend (in the sense that you're technically either one or the other subrace), but one's mixed heritage can still have some subtle effect on appearance even with FR drow and elves. 2E Drow of the Underdark (by Ed Greenwood) does say specifically that drow with blue or purple eyes have it as a result of either human or surface elf ancestry. |
Edited by - deserk on 19 Oct 2021 21:01:44 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2021 : 21:20:58
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
I also haven't heard that thing about Starym being Drizzt's ancestor. Though it's true that elves don't blend (in the sense that you're technically either one or the other subrace), but one's mixed heritage can still have some subtle effect on appearance even with FR drow and elves. 2E Drow of the Underdark (by Ed Greenwood) does say specifically that drow with blue or purple eyes have it as a result of either human or surface elf ancestry.
Taking a quick glance at that book, I withdraw my prior statements on drow eye color. It's been a while since I perused that book in any detail, and in fact the last time I cracked it open was to see if my DM had indeed thrown a wand of viscid globs at us. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2021 : 21:32:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Drizzt has purple eyes because Josidiah Starym is an ancestor, Liriel has amber eyes because (for some reason) Gromph Baenre (her father) had amber eyes. So the 'easiest' explanation is ancestry. But I really like the idea of it being an effect of the spellplague if you're playing the current timeline. There's also the idea that she magically changed them for reasons of beauty ('hey look! my eyes are different from all those other boring elven waifus!')...but I find that idea a bit meh.
I remember Josidiah Starym being the previous owner of Guenhwyvar (aka "Shadow") in one of those short story anthologies, Realms of Magic IIRC. Where is it said Josidiah Starym was Drizzt's ancestor? |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2021 : 21:36:05
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I see no problem with the mixed elf ancestry for blue eyes. Weren't Captain Fflar and Ashemmi also of mixed/uncertain elf ancestry? Spellplague would also work in the proper timeline, but then I'd worry about tiny flames dancing in and around the eyes too.  A bit creepy. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2021 : 22:22:56
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Also just to note.... it's not like throughout the editions they've adhered to a standard....
FRCS 1st edition
Gold Elves are also called sunrise Elves or high Elves, and have bronze skins and hair of copper, black, or blonde. Their eyes are golden, silver, or black.
Races of Faerun
Sun elves have bronze skin, hair of golden blond, copper, or black, and eyes of green or gold.
Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide
Sun elves have the racial traits of high elves in the Player's Handbook. Sun elves have bronze skin. Their eyes are black, metallic gold, or metallic silver, and their hair is black, metallic copper, or golden blond.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2021 : 20:04:43
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For Wooly: I can't exactly quote every location but I'll connect the dots as best I can...
In one of the anthology novels (Realms of Magic I think) it's discovered that Guenwyvar was alive in/around Myth Drannor. She aided Josidiah and when she perished he prevailed upon a human mage to save her through his magic. Josidiah actually didn't like the idea of this magic but he couldn't stand to lose her.
Josidiah had purple eyes. I believe this is described in that same story and perhaps in Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves. I know that elven races don't 'mix' genetically but authors being what they are I think this was overlooked.
Josidiah took the form of a drow through similar High Magic that 'created' the drow in order to recover an elven artifact stolen from them. If memory serves, he returned successful but Guen was left behind.
In 2e version of Drow of the Underdark, blue and purple eyes are noted as a sign of surface elven ancestry.
Note: It's never stated outright that Josidiah is an ancestor, just highly hinted at. I'll leave it to more informed scribes as to the exact location of the points I made but I'm convinced my theory is true given the details we have. Also, I don't think RAS made this connection on purpose, I think these points were made after Drizzt became such a huge hit with fans in order to tie him to a surface elf of noble stature (both in name and spirit). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2021 : 20:09:06
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| For purposes of full disclosure I'll admit I made these connections back when I was a Drzzt fanboy (I'm rather tired of him these days) so I may have seen what I wanted to see at the time...but I'm still convinced Josidiah is his ancestor. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2021 : 20:34:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
For purposes of full disclosure I'll admit I made these connections back when I was a Drzzt fanboy (I'm rather tired of him these days) so I may have seen what I wanted to see at the time...but I'm still convinced Josidiah is his ancestor.
The only connection they have is through Guenwyvar, and Drizzt had to take that from a drow in another House.
I've stopped following the Saga of Lord Ginsu, but I am not aware of anything that implies he's got surface elves anywhere recent in his family tree.
Obviously, if it's your headcanon then that's one thing... But I, personally, need something more solid before logging a new entry into my headcanon.
(also, I believe Josidiah had blue eyes) |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Oct 2021 20:36:12 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2021 : 22:31:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I see no problem with the mixed elf ancestry for blue eyes. Weren't Captain Fflar and Ashemmi also of mixed/uncertain elf ancestry?
Not sure about Fflar, but Ashemmi doesn't have "typical" looks to the point it's not obvious that she's a moon elf.
Belinda Moonglow (Sunite socialite enchantress from Ravens Bluff) is very obviously a moon elf, yet - "Tall and lushly built for a moon elf, Lady Moonglow stands almost six feet in height, with an ample rather than slender figure; there's clearly human blood somewhere back in her ancestry".
So yes, the elven subraces generally are stable and discrete, and they do have distinct base phenotypes, but this doesn't extend to "all or nothing" for every single trait.
And if moon elves or drow don't all look alike, why should gold elves?
According to the list in Cormanthyr, mixed noble Houses happen. Including Starym. It's uncommon, due to different preferences. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 21 Oct 2021 22:44:19 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2021 : 05:45:52
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the city of the spiderqueen is nowhere near myth drannor or anywhere near cormanthor. So unless some drow merchant/guard/whatever moved from Maerimydra, being its in the middledark nearest the twister tower in shadowdale.
It is possible that Drizzt is the decent of Lord Starym, it is also possible that Drizzt is the reincarnation of Josidiah Starym too. Which would be bizzare in it and of itself. Both however are very slim.
Also do not forget that one drow with the red hair in that one lierel novel, that drow merchant clan with the deep dragon.
A sun elf + a moon elf will always be one or the other. Traces of both will always show up. would be hair or eye color in the case of the elves.( unless of course said elves bread with multiple species of elves and half elves over generations and which case could alter the elf in theory. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2021 : 20:30:45
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I brought this up because one never knows if a handy piece of lore is overlooked; for all I knew, there was a canon obscure clan of Sun Elves that appear differently from the majority (in more ways than one, too).
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A trace of moon elf blood would work, though the elven ancestries usually go one way or the other, instead of mixing.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Drizzt has purple eyes because Josidiah Starym is an ancestor, Liriel has amber eyes because (for some reason) Gromph Baenre (her father) had amber eyes. So the 'easiest' explanation is ancestry.
I must have missed the thing about Drizzt being related to Josidiah Starym... That doesn't explain his eyes, though, since it's canon that elven ancestries don't blend, they breed true to one parent or the other.
This factoid is completely new to me. Where can the pertinent entry be found?
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
just because your specifically doing blue as a color... and IF you're doing it in the 5e timeline (around 1490's)... what if the blue is because the elf was touched or born during the spellplague (such that at a hundred years old they're becoming an adult). The blue of their eyes might be particularly stunningly blue. Something where a human that sees them wouldn't be like "huh, they have eyes like us" and instead "wow, its like looking at a sapphire".
"Blue" as in "Blue is indicative of Mystra's touch."? No matter...my game is set before the Spellplague.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
A sun elf + a moon elf will always be one or the other. Traces of both will always show up. would be hair or eye color in the case of the elves.( unless of course said elves bread with multiple species of elves and half elves over generations and which case could alter the elf in theory.
In your opinion, does "Elf with a distant human ancestor." produce fewer conflicts? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2021 : 22:49:39
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Page 9 of A Grand Tour of the Realms, from the 2E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting boxed set:
"There are five known elven subraces in the Forgotten Realms, and four of them live in relative harmony. Cross-breeding is possible between the subraces, but in the case of the elves, the child will either take after the male or female parent's race (there are no drow-moon elf mongrels, and the child of such an unlikely union would have either all the traits of a dark elf or of a moon elf)." |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Oct 2021 22:50:06 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2021 : 09:05:17
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| no more or less than an elf with a distant dwarven ancestor. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2021 : 15:38:03
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
no more or less than an elf with a distant dwarven ancestor.
Half-dwarves, including dwelves, look dwarven.
Page 6 of Dwarves Deep says:
quote:
Humans, gnomes, and halflings are cross-fertile with dwarves. Elminster says elves and dwarves can have issue as well. Common in Ardeep, Eaerlann, and Myth Drannor of old, this is unheard-of today.
and
quote:
"Half-dwarves" are not a distinct race. Save for their height (a head taller than most dwarves) all offspring of unions between dwarves and other races look and act (and are treated in the rules) as pureblood dwarves. Dwarven halfbreeds always have the stocky build and hirsute appearance of purebloods.
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2021 : 00:41:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Page 9 of A Grand Tour of the Realms, from the 2E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting boxed set:
"There are five known elven subraces in the Forgotten Realms, and four of them live in relative harmony. Cross-breeding is possible between the subraces, but in the case of the elves, the child will either take after the male or female parent's race (there are no drow-moon elf mongrels, and the child of such an unlikely union would have either all the traits of a dark elf or of a moon elf)."
"We're not coming up with dozens of racial combinations. Are you crazy? We've got a page count to abide by."
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
the byproduct of a Wish spell
As an example: an elven mother beseeches a mage to ensure that her child will be born healthy and beautiful. The Wish is fulfilled, but a consequence of this mystical intervention is that the babe is born with eyes matching those of the mage; the destinies of both infant and practitioner of the arcane are now forever intertwined. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Justifying a slightly unusual Sun Elf
