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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Oct 2021 : 14:46:15
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| Seravin, if memory serves, the Simbul has melded with Mystra. But I'm with you, I hate that she's gone in the current timeline. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2021 : 01:28:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
The Simbul, because I don't understand why she isn't already back
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Seravin, if memory serves, the Simbul has melded with Mystra. But I'm with you, I hate that she's gone in the current timeline.
According to the new Minsc & Boo book The Simbul is alive and well. As I said, no character dies the in Realms, as this setting lost any sense of consequence, continuity and logic with 5e.
I'm sure the next returning characters will be Azoun IV and Khelben, that were never death, only in the Feywild or something. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2021 : 02:34:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
this setting lost any sense of consequence, continuity and logic with 5e.
Long before 5e and long before 4e. As soon as WotC got their hands on the setting, they expressely declared that continuity wasn't their priority--and it shows.
Logic isn't either, as every FR event has basically been whatever most convenient (and sometimes outright laughable) excuse WotC could find to justify whatever change they wanted to apply. Just think that, in their mind, the consequence 2 planets colliding, compenetrating, and passing through each other, consisted of a few pieces of lands (in very convenient positions) being swapped. Big lols.
WotC gives 0 f*cks about stortytelling, really. As they like to say, they're a game company, they don't make stories. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 09 Oct 2021 02:38:33 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2021 : 03:34:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I'm sure the next returning characters will be Azoun IV and Khelben, that were never death, only in the Feywild or something.
Azoun IV has been in Sune's domain for the last century... But after 100 years, even she is worn out by his attentions, and is ready to send him back to the Realms! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2021 : 15:56:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
The Simbul, because I don't understand why she isn't already back
The Simbul would work well as a Weave Ghost. For people who want to play binders or warlocks - pick your edition - she can be a (very self-willed) vestige. So if you decided to bind with Karsus the day before, expect a rather unfriendly reception from this most temperamental of Mystra's Chosen.  |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2021 : 18:45:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Long before 5e and long before 4e. As soon as WotC got their hands on the setting, they expressely declared that continuity wasn't their priority--and it shows.
Well, there was still a sense of continuity in 4e. Like stuff happened, and the world went on accordingly. Maybe some stuff was bad, but the world still advanced and changed. And well, bad stuff gives the Realms verisimilitude. I've read here that it's a good thing, right?
But now is just "let's do this cuz kweel". And to pander to a section of the Fandom that doesn't even buy their books anymore... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2021 : 19:34:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
The Simbul, because I don't understand why she isn't already back
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Seravin, if memory serves, the Simbul has melded with Mystra. But I'm with you, I hate that she's gone in the current timeline.
According to the new Minsc & Boo book The Simbul is alive and well. As I said, no character dies the in Realms, as this setting lost any sense of consequence, continuity and logic with 5e.
I'm sure the next returning characters will be Azoun IV and Khelben, that were never death, only in the Feywild or something.
She's back? Wow....did Mystra just zap her back to life since she melded with Mystra in the Elminster Must Die series? I mean, given how much Elminster changed bodies in that series I don't really understand why or how the Simbul "died" but I guess being absorbed would be her choice to stop her Chosen life and makes sense. But if she wanted to be back, it doesn't make sense that Mystra wouldn't grant that.
Oh well..cool she's back. I didn't know that! |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2021 : 21:58:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
She's back? Wow....did Mystra just zap her back to life since she melded with Mystra in the Elminster Must Die series? I mean, given how much Elminster changed bodies in that series I don't really understand why or how the Simbul "died" but I guess being absorbed would be her choice to stop her Chosen life and makes sense. But if she wanted to be back, it doesn't make sense that Mystra wouldn't grant that.
Oh well..cool she's back. I didn't know that!
They just say she is frecuenting Candlekeep currently. It seems some people have taken that as a "she is alive!". So, perhaps I was overreacting, sorry  |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 09 Oct 2021 21:59:30 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2021 : 22:34:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
The Simbul, because I don't understand why she isn't already back
The Simbul would work well as a Weave Ghost. For people who want to play binders or warlocks - pick your edition - she can be a (very self-willed) vestige. So if you decided to bind with Karsus the day before, expect a rather unfriendly reception from this most temperamental of Mystra's Chosen.
That's a neat idea. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2021 : 22:38:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
The Simbul, because I don't understand why she isn't already back
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Seravin, if memory serves, the Simbul has melded with Mystra. But I'm with you, I hate that she's gone in the current timeline.
According to the new Minsc & Boo book The Simbul is alive and well. As I said, no character dies the in Realms, as this setting lost any sense of consequence, continuity and logic with 5e.
I'm sure the next returning characters will be Azoun IV and Khelben, that were never death, only in the Feywild or something.
Lol, so did they even remotely approach HOW she's back, or does it appear to be an "OOPS, wait, she was dead?" |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2021 : 23:43:11
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Lol, so did they even remotely approach HOW she's back, or does it appear to be an "OOPS, wait, she was dead?"
Nope. She is just a frequent, current reader at Candlekeep. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2021 : 04:15:48
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| Did anyone ask Ed on Twitter if/how she's back?! This is huge news to some of us mega-Simbul fanatics. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2021 : 13:33:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Did anyone ask Ed on Twitter if/how she's back?! This is huge news to some of us mega-Simbul fanatics.
As one mischievous explanation, the Simbul scried on Manshoon casting one of his stasis clone spells. She copied it using Alamanther's return and made her own stasis clone ready for future activation. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2021 : 13:45:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Azoun IV has been in Sune's domain for the last century... But after 100 years, even she is worn out by his attentions, and is ready to send him back to the Realms!
Oh great, King Irvel and Queen Raedra now have to deal with half-celestial 3x and 4xgreat grand uncles and aunts and perhaps their aasimar descendants. Oh, to see Vangerdahast's reaction. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2021 : 17:46:51
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quote:
Me, personally, I'd have Khelben stay dead for a while, then decide he had more to do, and come back to the Realms in a new form. Still a mage, still a Chosen, but with a new face and name. We know Khelben has lived under different identities before, so it's not a stretch to have him do it again. I'd even be tempted to have him return to Waterdeep as a "new" Blackstaff.
THIS was almost exactly my idea. Only difference was he'd look very similar to Khelben but a good bit younger (I prefer it this way because Laeral wouldn't have to get 'used' to a completely new face, just a slightly different and younger one).
I'm not sure what his name would be (I really like the name Khelben) but perhaps an archaic elven term for Nameless since he was known as the Nameless Chosen for a time. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2021 : 18:26:42
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
quote:
Me, personally, I'd have Khelben stay dead for a while, then decide he had more to do, and come back to the Realms in a new form. Still a mage, still a Chosen, but with a new face and name. We know Khelben has lived under different identities before, so it's not a stretch to have him do it again. I'd even be tempted to have him return to Waterdeep as a "new" Blackstaff.
THIS was almost exactly my idea. Only difference was he'd look very similar to Khelben but a good bit younger (I prefer it this way because Laeral wouldn't have to get 'used' to a completely new face, just a slightly different and younger one).
I'm not sure what his name would be (I really like the name Khelben) but perhaps an archaic elven term for Nameless since he was known as the Nameless Chosen for a time.
I thought Khelben WAS the archaic elven term for Nameless  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2021 : 20:22:55
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
quote:
Me, personally, I'd have Khelben stay dead for a while, then decide he had more to do, and come back to the Realms in a new form. Still a mage, still a Chosen, but with a new face and name. We know Khelben has lived under different identities before, so it's not a stretch to have him do it again. I'd even be tempted to have him return to Waterdeep as a "new" Blackstaff.
THIS was almost exactly my idea. Only difference was he'd look very similar to Khelben but a good bit younger (I prefer it this way because Laeral wouldn't have to get 'used' to a completely new face, just a slightly different and younger one).
I'm not sure what his name would be (I really like the name Khelben) but perhaps an archaic elven term for Nameless since he was known as the Nameless Chosen for a time.
Steven Schend has given us a list of Khelben's past identities. Personally, I would assume he's changed his appearance each time, which means Laeral wouldn't be terribly bothered by a new one. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2021 : 03:44:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, there was still a sense of continuity in 4e. Like stuff happened, and the world went on accordingly. Maybe some stuff was bad, but the world still advanced and changed. And well, bad stuff gives the Realms verisimilitude. I've read here that it's a good thing, right?
Was there? 4e was ushered in by a bunch of changes that were justified by very arbitrary events, that either went in contrast with what happened before (example: why did Mystra's death cause an apocalypse, when it never did before? Don't include the explanation given by the fans--fans can explain everything--the official lore gave none), that were simply laughable (example: the worlds crossing joke), or that had characters and gods behave very uncharacteristically (or downright like a circus), so that WotC could have the changes they wanted. That's not verisimilitude, and I wouldn't try to look for that in anything that WotC does.
If we set our taste aside from the actual quality, 3e and 4e were about "whatever it's cool" too, in slightly lesser measure than 5e *perhaps*, but still not to be taken seriously. A continuous stream of "bigger than the world" events, in which things blew up and godlike forces were set in motion, but the consequences were always handwaved away with little to no mention, except the few selected changes that WotC wanted to see happen. Because that was the crux of the matter: finding excuses to drop the "rule of cool" changes, no matter how well said excuses or changes meshed with continuity.
In 5e they're doing the same, they just dropped the excuse.
quote:
And well, bad stuff gives the Realms verisimilitude. I've read here that it's a good thing, right?
In a setting or story, credibility must come with a sense of meaning. Which means that having random bad stuff happen (because you need x change that you like more than what was there before) doesn't contribute to credibility or meaning at all.
You need to have buildups--the exhaustion phase, related to the big event in terms of meaning--before you have the big disastrous event itself. You need to set precedents and stretch things until the big events feels the right climax, otherwise it will fall flat and feel like a deus ex machina to apply the change or have the big fireworks.
Random bad stuff happening is *realistic*, but it has nothing wo do with credibility/verisimilitude or meaning. Put it like this: if you had a story about some character needing to stop being a loner edgelord and use the power of friendship to beat the BBEG, and then a meteor fell down on the planet and smashed things, would it be realistic? Yes. Would it be believable or carry meaning? No, because it'd make no narrative sense.
The Spellplague was exactly like that. If you replaced Mystra being stabbed by Cyric with the fall of a magical meteor that made magic go haywire and left pockets of spellplague, mutated people, and stuff, absolutely nothing would change. This means that the Spellplague as an event had no meaning or theme, no relevance to any of the stories of the Realms other than it being massive. It was just a combination of shock value and deus ex machina to make some changes (and only the consequences that WotC *wanted* to apply were explored, the rest was handwaved). Exactly like the stuff we see in 5e.
Whichever edition you look at, be it 3e, 4e, or 5e, when it comes to the story, it's just different shades of the same problems. Maybe at the beginning of 3e they were less impactful (I dunno, wasn't there, and am forgetting a lot of the lore that I read), but that's only because WotC had just taken hold of the IP. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 12 Oct 2021 04:27:05 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2021 : 05:18:25
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| Let's not rehash the edition wars, please. We still have some strong opinions there, and I'd prefer to keep things more or less on the original topic. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2021 : 05:26:33
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Sure, I found it strange that the resurrections in 5e were basically seen like cheese, when WotC have been mostly working towards submerging everything under a mile-thick layer of cheese, since forever. They've just dropped all facades of giving any thought to continuity. When WotC have been picking and choosing which consequences to ignore and which to apply for such a long time, why should the newest iteration of this be singled out?
Besides, with the novels and former editions no longer being canon for 5e, I guess every character can suddenly be alive in 5e products with no explanation needed. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 12 Oct 2021 05:28:19 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2021 : 15:53:07
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quote:
I thought Khelben WAS the archaic elven term for Nameless
Maybe? But bhin (ben) is elvish for 'young human male' as he was called by his elven friends. I recall the name Khelben meaning something along the lines as "he whom duty & honor defines." It was given to him by Mystra after he nearly died in 464DR. I could be wrong, but I've always interpreted this to be the meaning of his name. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2021 : 16:57:41
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So I looked at the Khelben timeline Steven Schend has previously provided in our halls... Here's the KNOWN names Khelben has gone by; there are some time periods when there isn't a listed name.
When Mystra made him her Chosen, she named him Akhelben, "he whom magic, duty, and honor defines" -- but the hard of hearing elven nurse that was there didn't catch the first syllable, so he became Khelben.
He's also been married a bunch of times, but only two wives were named, and one of them was of course Laeral; the two of them chased each other off and on for 5 centuries.
Arun's Son
the Nameless Chosen
The Nameless Sleeper
Akhelben Arunson
Hauliyr "the Old Witch"
Halver Gehrin
Khelben Arunson - "Khelben the Elder"
Ducat Eattel
Khelben the Elder
Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Oct 2021 16:58:54 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2021 : 17:16:54
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"he whom..."
Tell me this doesn't sound like PR spin.
"What? Your name is Khelben? No name boy? Boy with no name? Nameless?"
"No no no, you missheard, it was Akhelben, its not elvish, its ARCANE elvish for 'he whom...blah blah' "
"What a load of codswallop." |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2021 : 17:25:31
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As for resurrecting Khel, I'd say yes, great. Except with that ONCE AGAIN, they put in the damn novel. I can't be resurrected. If I am then all the wonderful sunshine and rainbows of this mighty magic I worked my whole multiple centuries long life for (even though no one ever heard of it before, and I'm a pretty noticeable character) will fail.
Well, I say good. Screw that stupid spell too. Bring back the sharn, and the elves - even the ones everyone thought was dead seven centuries earlier (and who could have helped the elven people a hell of a lot over the centuries... like when Evermeet was attacked, or maybe even they could have won the Weeping War, for example), and the Moonblades (for those who say.. but they were dormant - please refer to Elaith's dormant and now not dormant blade), and even mr. lichi-pants that was smart enough to capture Halaster - maybe the most powerful mage left (I don't think I'm confusing liches here but might be) but is apparently otherwise completely clueless and Khelben's dupe, and just stumbles into being the battery for a High Magic Ritual... High magic again, which was intended to be elves only, but that's too restrictive so Khelben can do it.. and everyone else if you believe the books that were published. |
Edited by - The Masked Mage on 12 Oct 2021 17:27:46 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2021 : 19:15:48
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| Wait, Khelben is supposed to be an special snowflake? I remember that when I saw him for the very first time (in the Demon Stone videogame), I was like "is this Bootleg Elminster or something?" |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2021 : 20:51:16
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
As for resurrecting Khel, I'd say yes, great. Except with that ONCE AGAIN, they put in the damn novel. I can't be resurrected. If I am then all the wonderful sunshine and rainbows of this mighty magic I worked my whole multiple centuries long life for (even though no one ever heard of it before, and I'm a pretty noticeable character) will fail.
Well, I say good. Screw that stupid spell too. Bring back the sharn, and the elves - even the ones everyone thought was dead seven centuries earlier (and who could have helped the elven people a hell of a lot over the centuries... like when Evermeet was attacked, or maybe even they could have won the Weeping War, for example), and the Moonblades (for those who say.. but they were dormant - please refer to Elaith's dormant and now not dormant blade), and even mr. lichi-pants that was smart enough to capture Halaster - maybe the most powerful mage left (I don't think I'm confusing liches here but might be) but is apparently otherwise completely clueless and Khelben's dupe, and just stumbles into being the battery for a High Magic Ritual... High magic again, which was intended to be elves only, but that's too restrictive so Khelben can do it.. and everyone else if you believe the books that were published.
Khelben has elven blood, was raised among elves, trained by elves, was a Chosen of Mystra, and obviously had the favor of the Seldarine. I'm not going to quibble about him being able to use High Magic.
Besides, a lot of High Magic was cooperative and didn't require all the participants to be elven. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2021 : 21:01:34
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| To dovetail onto this: I don't think Khelben technically used High Magic. It was very similar, but not quite the same. He had to develop a work-around that took centuries to complete. I may be totally wrong on that one though, but that's how I remember it (I no longer have the novel so can't back it up with a solid reference). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2021 : 22:53:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Khelben has elven blood, was raised among elves, trained by elves, was a Chosen of Mystra, and obviously had the favor of the Seldarine. I'm not going to quibble about him being able to use High Magic.
Besides, a lot of High Magic was cooperative and didn't require all the participants to be elven.
Yes Yes, and Ulair "said" he can, and so that makes changing the rules so everyone can do it fine. Its the whole thought process of 3rd E. Take everything that makes playing an elf, even with its drawbacks and all, special. Then, let anyone do it so there is no good reason to play an elf anymore. Same goes for humans. Then, chuck the whole thing and make every race a character race because the half dozen or so that worked wonderfully for the previous 30 years clearly did a bad job. 
As for "cooperative" magic, I think you mean the part where it said that non-elves could stand on the outside of the outer circle and be drained of life to pay for the magic - even though they were not actually casting them you could bleed em and tell them they were helping :P. Kind of a huge leap to go from that to being the central caster to a what was basically a huge ritual of myriad. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2021 : 22:55:31
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| Anyway, the main point is Khelben should never have been dead anyway. Since the brought everyone else back there is no reasonable argument that he should not also be brought back. |
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If you could resurrect a single Realms character..
