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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Sep 2021 : 00:27:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't see why any hand-waving is necessary. There's a dozen Chosen. And even level 10+ NPCs are still something like 1 per several hundred people. It's a simple question of numbers -- the powerful people can't be everywhere, and not all of the powerful people are good guys, anyway.
Not all of the overpowered "godlike" characters are Chosens, of course. Drizzt is a fine example.
And some powerful people can indeed be "everywhere" (many places) simultaneously. Manshoon is a fine example.
It's rather tiresome, though, that every time a truly epic "godlike" problem threatens the Realms, a truly epic "godlike" Chosen-sort of character instantly defends the Realms. They might be one-in-a-million champions but that doesn't mean the other 999,999 champions are useless supernumeraries.
It's also rather tiresome that the "good guys" always win. Sometimes they have to fight hard, they just barely win by the skin of their teeth. Sometimes their victory is costly and somewhat uncertain. But still they win.
While the "bad guys" are implausible mustache-twirling melodramatic mwoohaha villains straight out of juvenile comic books. Simple-minded and predictable. And unbelievably incompetent, suddenly fumbling and blinded by arrogance and utterly unsophisticated when the critical moments of the critical confrontations are upon them. Even when they're supposedly "godlike" intellects with lifetimes of experience, armies of competent henchmen, and decades of careful observation/planning behind them. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2021 : 00:45:32
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| Given that Many-Arrows and the Empire of Shade were both around for a century, despite some serious opposition to their founding, I don't think we can say the good guys always win. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2021 : 00:56:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Given that Many-Arrows and the Empire of Shade were both around for a century, despite some serious opposition to their founding, I don't think we can say the good guys always win.
Many-Arrows and Shade just wanted a place in the Realms. They even claimed territories that were largely unpopulated (and unpopular) before their arrival. They were "evil" and manipulative and destructive, a city or two fell in their path, yet somehow they never really threatened the cultures and nations of the Realms beyond their arrival spasms.
But I'm guessing that the moment either of these nations grew too large and too threatening - if they became a serious problem which could march vast armies across the landscape and topple nations - some sort of Chosen would sit up and take action and win. Every time. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2021 : 01:40:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Given that Many-Arrows and the Empire of Shade were both around for a century, despite some serious opposition to their founding, I don't think we can say the good guys always win.
Many-Arrows and Shade just wanted a place in the Realms. They even claimed territories that were largely unpopulated (and unpopular) before their arrival. They were "evil" and manipulative and destructive, a city or two fell in their path, yet somehow they never really threatened the cultures and nations of the Realms beyond their arrival spasms.
But I'm guessing that the moment either of these nations grew too large and too threatening - if they became a serious problem which could march vast armies across the landscape and topple nations - some sort of Chosen would sit up and take action and win. Every time.
The Chosen were fighting Shade very early on. And Shade still went on to build an empire that lasted for a century, an empire that included a major country in the Heartlands of Faerūn.
Many-Arrows was established practically on the doorstep of one Chosen and not terribly far from two others. And it was established by marching a vast army across the landscape, into territory that was already claimed. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2021 : 02:24:53
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
- "Ooo! Let's all play elves or 'good' drow, half-elves at the least." And then the players proceed to play them like impatient & reckless humans regardless of having lifespans 2-5 times that of humans in the setting.
These may be common (I'm guessing here), but I consider them forgivable.
* While elves are noted to be long-lived and view certain events with a detached patience, they are also described as flighty/mercurial (most charitably, simply "emotional") and given to wanderlust. It's easy to view them as moving with rapidity during adventures (putting that high Dexterity to use) while saving the "stop and REALLY smell the roses" philosophy for the times they settle in a place "off screen". Plus, even if an elf battles/journeys for three to five years nonstop, they can then easily retire for fifteen to twenty years and it won't mean much over the course of their life.
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
- "Elves are the epitome of wisdom & good, who can be trusted with magic, are respectful of the environment, and treat all with equality." Hah! They warred among themselves for power, wrought the greatest magical calamities upon the world with their own botched magics, use their technologies to warp & twist the natural world to their desires, and look upon their own diverse race with arrogance & condescension let alone the "primitive" other races. For as long as the elves have produced bows, steel, wine, tree homes, cheese, and leather they have been perverting nature and its order.
* In most editions of D&D, elves are described as Chaotic Good; both the Player's Handbook and the Monstrous Manual/Monster Manual reinforce that Alignment. Furthermore, the various campaign guides/setting books for The Forgotten Realms don't go out of their way to make a refutation...at least in the section summarizing what makes an elf an elf. While you can take every historical account into consideration, most choose to go with the explanation that "Certain elves made some grievous mistakes in the past, but those mistakes are not indicative of how the race behaves on the whole."
As for the elves (not?) living in harmony with nature? Some elves live entirely with nature by electing to not produce fixed structures while others erect magnificent buildings that blend in with the surrounding trees (or are even built within/on the trees). Then, there are the elves that live among humans in their grand cities. In any case, compared to their younger neighbors, elves seem to be more environmentally conscious on the whole, whether they are calling on millennia-old wisdom, conferring with their fey brethren or relying on their own nature-friendly magic. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2021 : 02:30:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't see why any hand-waving is necessary. There's a dozen Chosen. And even level 10+ NPCs are still something like 1 per several hundred people. It's a simple question of numbers -- the powerful people can't be everywhere, and not all of the powerful people are good guys, anyway.
Not all of the overpowered "godlike" characters are Chosens, of course. Drizzt is a fine example.
And some powerful people can indeed be "everywhere" (many places) simultaneously. Manshoon is a fine example.
It's rather tiresome, though, that every time a truly epic "godlike" problem threatens the Realms, a truly epic "godlike" Chosen-sort of character instantly defends the Realms. They might be one-in-a-million champions but that doesn't mean the other 999,999 champions are useless supernumeraries.
It's also rather tiresome that the "good guys" always win. Sometimes they have to fight hard, they just barely win by the skin of their teeth. Sometimes their victory is costly and somewhat uncertain. But still they win.
While the "bad guys" are implausible mustache-twirling melodramatic mwoohaha villains straight out of juvenile comic books. Simple-minded and predictable. And unbelievably incompetent, suddenly fumbling and blinded by arrogance and utterly unsophisticated when the critical moments of the critical confrontations are upon them. Even when they're supposedly "godlike" intellects with lifetimes of experience, armies of competent henchmen, and decades of careful observation/planning behind them.
What Ayrik describes is very likely what motivated the authors of the 3.0ed FRCS to include The Concerns of the Mighty sidebar on page 84. Unlike novels especially from the TSR heyday in the 90's, the sidebar reflects less about heros winning and more about stalemating. The latter I consider far more plausible of Faerun's day-to-day activity. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2021 : 02:42:28
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| Perhaps there's more focus on heroes winning because most PCs tend to be heroic or at least some stripe of Neutral aligned with heroes? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2021 : 03:23:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know if those commercials got as much airtime outside the US as they did in the US, but they were all over US channels, for a while.
I do remember these commercials,  I didn't got the "slice and dice" thing, as I saw these commercials in Spanish. But I figured you were calling him "Ginsu" because he cuts anything. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
89 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2021 : 10:04:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They had some breakout characters after buying TSR, too, but still decided to keep going back to the Elminster/Lord Ginsu well over and over and over again.
Why do you call Drizzt 'Lord Ginsu' specifically? I feel like there's a reference I'm not getting.
When I was a kid, there used to be commercials for Ginsu knives, where they would go to great lengths to show they could cut through anything, and they'd repeatedly exclaim things like "It slices! It dices!"
Since the common perception of Drizzt is that he's slicing and dicing and cutting his way through everything in his path, Lord Ginsu seemed a fitting name.
I don't know if those commercials got as much airtime outside the US as they did in the US, but they were all over US channels, for a while.
I don't ever remember those being a thing in the United Kingdom, so... there you go.
Beyond that, yeah. I think we're basically just circling the wagons as far as the most annoying misconception about the Forgotten Realms goes. I think another misconception that sticks out to me is that it's a setting in mediaeval stasis and that technology never advances. Which largely just comes from internet memes about the Harpers secretly being evil and doing stuff like destroying the printing press. Even though we see in-setting technological advancement, and the Realms has printing presses. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2021 : 13:33:48
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
- "Ooo! Let's all play elves or 'good' drow, half-elves at the least." And then the players proceed to play them like impatient & reckless humans regardless of having lifespans 2-5 times that of humans in the setting.
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
These may be common (I'm guessing here), but I consider them forgivable.
Why? When players make no effort to roleplay something with alien mindsets, but somehow when I have given those players dwarves and halflings they suddenly act like upstarts of warrior cultures and small people having to live in the big people's worlds accordingly, why should that get a pass? Since every adventurer elf starts out with 100+ years of having been alive and being aware of the world, why would they act anything like 20 year old humans? Especially the "damn the torpedoes" approach when there is little at stake for the PCs and the elves are a dwindling race in the FR (circa 1e-3e). For over 30 years of playing in the FR I have repeatedly encountered this weird phenomena and the recurring answer I get from the scores of players that have done this from cons to intimate gaming groups boils down to "because its a sexy version of myself" (no one has said this outright but it is the result of shrugging half-answers I received).
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
- "Elves are the epitome of wisdom & good, who can be trusted with magic, are respectful of the environment, and treat all with equality." Hah! They warred among themselves for power, wrought the greatest magical calamities upon the world with their own botched magics, use their technologies to warp & twist the natural world to their desires, and look upon their own diverse race with arrogance & condescension let alone the "primitive" other races. For as long as the elves have produced bows, steel, wine, tree homes, cheese, and leather they have been perverting nature and its order.
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
* In most editions of D&D, elves are described as Chaotic Good; both the Player's Handbook and the Monstrous Manual/Monster Manual reinforce that Alignment. Furthermore, the various campaign guides/setting books for The Forgotten Realms don't go out of their way to make a refutation...at least in the section summarizing what makes an elf an elf. While you can take every historical account into consideration, most choose to go with the explanation that "Certain elves made some grievous mistakes in the past, but those mistakes are not indicative of how the race behaves on the whole."
I said "Elves are the epitome..." as in all of their civilizations, the aggregate of all their actions, so on and so forth. This player bias is the notion of the elves being a superior race. This is the FR, so at least look at the lore to see that the elves are just as prone to pride, envy, jealousy, lust, greed, wrath, and a host of other evil actions as the other "inferior" races of Faerun. That "hippy-elf" mental image too many players have is what I'm talking about. I have no idea with what you are arguing, but if it is the way the FR lore paints the elves you need to take that up with the writers. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2021 : 19:25:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Perhaps there's more focus on heroes winning because most PCs tend to be heroic or at least some stripe of Neutral aligned with heroes?
A basic problem with nearly all fictional media is that the "good" guys must always win. And the Realms are no different.
Also with the Realms being a D&D world, and D&D being Rated G.....well you had to have the rated G Realms.
The vast majority of the Realms novels have bad guys doing "bad" stuff for no reason. Often something very vague: all the Bad Guys wanted Spellfire to...er...do "stuff".
At least half of the Relams books, both game and novels, do just ignore the gods other then a name drop or two. The other half of the books do show the gods being very active, though often behind the curtain.
I lot, if not all, of the power problem in the Realms comes right from Ed Greenwood. He just could not write any sort of balance. Bane the Dark God...could cast darkness once a day......and Mystra could ExPlOdE one Million Mulitiverses in .0001 seconds Weeeee! And this holds true for all his characters....Manshoon casts magic missile and Elminster catches the missles with the magic hair pin he forgot he was wearing from Myth Drannor for 300 years. Then El winks and shoots out a 1000d1000 ball of obliteration...yuck yuck yuck!
Ed could have made things a BIT more equal. Making good and bad at the same power level and have them fight for an advantage.
And Ed had told a story, a false one I think, that both TSR and Wizards "forced" him to write that good wins always and that he must write it like a bratty, whinny five year old ("nut-UA! Your fireball does not hurt the Sumbil as she blocks it with her pinky toenail of fire obliteration! And then she goes a little girl laugh and that blast does infinity D infinity damage!")
Though no other writer I have seen has mentioned being "forced" to "make good always win" and "make then win like a bratty five year old". And...not too amazingly...Ed does do much the same thing in his non TSR/Wizards books...so, hummmmmm. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2021 : 19:54:38
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Ed has NEVER said that he was forced to have good guys "win like a bratty five year old". He has only said that there was a Code of Ethics -- which HAS been mentioned by other writers -- that said bad guys could not win.
Also, how is he supposed to write any bad guy as being the same as Elminster? A thousand year old mage, blessed by the goddess of magic, and with an understanding of magic beyond what most mortals could have, is going to have an advantage over a mage with less experience and less of an understanding of magic.
That's like complaining that a professional race car driver has an advantage, when racing, over the new UPS guy. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Sep 2021 19:58:13 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2021 : 20:03:37
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
The vast majority of the Realms novels have bad guys doing "bad" stuff for no reason. Often something very vague: all the Bad Guys wanted Spellfire to...er...do "stuff".
Bad guys often do bad stuff on stage for "no reason" other than to demonstrate their evilness to the audience.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KicktheDog
Although, to be fair, D&D was simpler back when Spellfire was a freshly-minted novelty item. The villains and heroes (and even Elminster) were simpler, too. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2021 : 22:00:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Also, how is he supposed to write any bad guy as being the same as Elminster? A thousand year old mage, blessed by the goddess of magic, and with an understanding of magic beyond what most mortals could have, is going to have an advantage over a mage with less experience and less of an understanding of magic.
There is an introduction to a book by Elminster that this reminds me of. I cannot remember which book I read it in and I can't seem to find it. Elminster says something along the lines of "now you might ask, dear reader, why I don't off Manshoon. Well, who is to say who would win? It could go either way." Basically the idea I think that was meant to be conveyed was that a lot of things in the Realms are on a knifes edge, with the idea that Elminster can't just go in guns a blazing. Does this ring a bell with anyone? Anyone know which accessory that is from? |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2021 : 22:27:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ed has NEVER said that he was forced to have good guys "win like a bratty five year old". He has only said that there was a Code of Ethics -- which HAS been mentioned by other writers -- that said bad guys could not win.
Also, how is he supposed to write any bad guy as being the same as Elminster? A thousand year old mage, blessed by the goddess of magic, and with an understanding of magic beyond what most mortals could have, is going to have an advantage over a mage with less experience and less of an understanding of magic.
That's like complaining that a professional race car driver has an advantage, when racing, over the new UPS guy.
Sure, in the rated G Realms the bad guys always loose. And this is true in nearly all media. But you don't have to have the bad guys loose super hard and run away with a "I'll get you next time Gadget!" You can do it so the good guy just barley wins or they win another way. For example they don't defeat Saroun by Agagorn hitting him with his shinny new sword for 1000 points of damage. But Saroun is still defeated.
Elminster is a "problem" sure...but the published Realms are full of high level powerful types
Or...you know....how about getting a professional race car driver to go up against a professional race car driver? Or maybe have the race car driver go up against a guy with a airplane...oh, who would win that race.
The Elminster "chessmaster" line might be in the 2E Villans Handbook. Sounds like a good place to look. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2021 : 23:38:40
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Since every adventurer elf starts out with 100+ years of having been alive and being aware of the world, why would they act anything like 20 year old humans?
Uh...aren't standard elves* of roughly one-hundred to one-hundred and fifty years of age essentially mentally twenty years old in human terms  ? For as long as I've played D&D - in the Realms and otherwise - elves are noted to age both mentally and physically at a commensurately slower pace compared to the shorter-lived races. Granted, this isn't a perfect analog, but, at that point, an elf has more-or-less entered adulthood.
* Basically, sun or moon elves. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2021 : 23:47:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
The vast majority of the Realms novels have bad guys doing "bad" stuff for no reason. Often something very vague: all the Bad Guys wanted Spellfire to...er...do "stuff".
Bad guys often do bad stuff on stage for "no reason" other than to demonstrate their evilness to the audience.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KicktheDog
Although, to be fair, D&D was simpler back when Spellfire was a freshly-minted novelty item. The villains and heroes (and even Elminster) were simpler, too.
Nuance - to an extent - is fine for most villains (some truly do revel in the power they can exert over the lives of innocents), but I don't want The Forgotten Realms to eventually emulate/follow the example set by Game of Thrones or other famous works that thumb their nose at the concept of "hero". |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2021 : 00:09:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Also, how is he supposed to write any bad guy as being the same as Elminster? A thousand year old mage, blessed by the goddess of magic, and with an understanding of magic beyond what most mortals could have, is going to have an advantage over a mage with less experience and less of an understanding of magic.
There is an introduction to a book by Elminster that this reminds me of. I cannot remember which book I read it in and I can't seem to find it. Elminster says something along the lines of "now you might ask, dear reader, why I don't off Manshoon. Well, who is to say who would win? It could go either way." Basically the idea I think that was meant to be conveyed was that a lot of things in the Realms are on a knifes edge, with the idea that Elminster can't just go in guns a blazing. Does this ring a bell with anyone? Anyone know which accessory that is from?
This is the 3.0ed FRCS, page 84 sidebar I previously mentioned in this topic as a reply to one of Ayrik's posts. Its title is Concerns of the Mighty. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2021 : 01:14:22
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| Then, Elminster proceeds to kill almost every Manshoon clone (they even killed Orbakh, that was my favorite) in one of the novels... and this is legit. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2021 : 03:02:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And do you really think Ed wasn't under explicit orders to kill them?
I pictured Ed Greenwood sitting at a simple wooden table with a typewriter, ink well plus quill, stack of papers, etc, while his leg (left or right...your choice) is chained to a prodigious ball of iron. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2021 : 03:13:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I pictured Ed Greenwood sitting at a simple wooden table with a typewriter, ink well plus quill, stack of papers, etc, while his leg (left or right...your choice) is chained to a prodigious ball of iron.
-Misery. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2021 : 06:27:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
This is the 3.0ed FRCS, page 84 sidebar I previously mentioned in this topic as a reply to one of Ayrik's posts. Its title is Concerns of the Mighty.
Thank you Delnyn!
I remember reading this on my first read through of the book. This is the designers giving the DM a ready made excuse as to why Elminster was not involved with any particular thing. But I also remember thinking that it was a fair thing to say, in and of itself. Caution is a thing. Where do you draw the line? How far do you push before you over extend?
Twenty years later, though, (it's been 20 years!) and I think it is a punk answer. The question he is addressing (to my mind) is not about "all might folk of good heart", the question is about Elminster. I think Elminster is making a strawman, by saying "why do not all might folk of good heart" and he hides behind the complexity of the world. Yes, because the world is complicated, it is a good idea to think through ones actions and their implications before acting, and having a degree of caution and thoughtfulness is useful so long as it does not cause a certain paralysis of action and a befuddling of the moral compass.
Being 41 and having a much better mental model for how the world works than I did at 21, steadily being refined over time. I am much better at min/maxing resources and effort, and with anticipating consequences of actions than my 21 year old self. Extrapolating that out to Elminster's lifetime, with a 1,000 years of experience, how easy should it be to outwit any number of opponents? How easy is it to anticipate the consequences of particular actions? How easy is it to min/max your time, energy, and resources to deal with a threat? Should be pretty easy.
To Elminster, Manshoon should be like a child. Have some allies on hand for backup, cleverly lure Manshoon out into the open somewhere, and drop the hammer. Not rocket surgery.
Elminster could properly be the Nick Fury/Bismarck of Faerun, the far seeing spymaster who lines up resources and personal to shake things up while also setting up long term solutions to win the peace when the dust settles. I could see Elminster taking a couple of decades to be really involved with the realms and then taking a few decades off to tend to the garden, as it were, checking back in occasionally, before having another several decade period of activity. He should properly have a vision for how the realms should develop.
Now, he can't be that, because this is a roleplaying game and the point of Forgotten Realms is to be a campaign setting of campaign settings. Keeping things loose and up in the air for DMs to handle however they will is the whole point. That's why Forgotten Realms is both a really great setting and a mess at the same time. It is the core of its strength.
Elminster is such a well established and over powered character, though, that it does make sense that DMs should account for him, just so that they, the DM, know what is going on in the background of their realms. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2021 : 06:32:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And do you really think Ed wasn't under explicit orders to kill them?
Perhaps. The point, however, is that Elminster says that he isn't sure if he can win against Manshoon, but then goes and kills a lot of Manshoons... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2021 : 06:51:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Perhaps. The point, however, is that Elminster says that he isn't sure if he can win against Manshoon, but then goes and kills a lot of Manshoons...
That is a clear contradiction.
I have only read a few stories involving Elminster and that was about 20 years ago. I am no Elminster expert. Maybe he is excessively cautious (possibly to the point of cowardice) due to numerous close calls he has had over the years? Roll a d100 enough times and you'll eventually roll a 1, as it were. Perhaps he is cowardly on a lot of things, but then when he gets over that hump where he has DECIDED that he's going to do something he has no problem going all out? Would that characterization fit? Would any other characterization fit better to square that circle? |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2021 : 09:45:13
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
4.The Realms are too big, it hurts my eyes and brain to look at that big map.
The Forgotten Realms is not a setting for DMs that feel as though they absolutely must have a handle on every itsy-bitsy detail; even with the myriad underdeveloped regions across all of Toril, there's simply too much for a single person to handle...barring those of us blessed with photographic memory or who happen to be artificial intelligences, anyhow  . On the other hand, with a modicum of restraint, it is trivial to use only what you need and "zoom in" when you come up short on creativity, require a particular campaign element to conform with another for whatever reason or are especially fond of whatever subject is presently your focus. I really wish we could get to the root of the problem and discover just why this fallacious way of thinking (i.e., "You must abide by ALL officially published materials as though they were scripture.") became widespread.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I pictured Ed Greenwood sitting at a simple wooden table with a typewriter, ink well plus quill, stack of papers, etc, while his leg (left or right...your choice) is chained to a prodigious ball of iron.
-Misery.
That is one instance where "lengthy beard" isn't a sign of mistreatment . |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2021 : 09:46:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And do you really think Ed wasn't under explicit orders to kill them?
Perhaps. The point, however, is that Elminster says that he isn't sure if he can win against Manshoon, but then goes and kills a lot of Manshoons...
El never said that he could not kill a Manshoon, only that destroying him outright was a difficult thing to do. He literally said he had killed at least one Manshoon himself way back in Spellfire.
He did say numerous times in numerous stories that he was not allowed to try to destroy Manshoon outright as he had been forbidden from doing so by Mystra. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2021 : 16:01:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
I have only read a few stories involving Elminster and that was about 20 years ago. I am no Elminster expert. Maybe he is excessively cautious (possibly to the point of cowardice) due to numerous close calls he has had over the years?
Early in his life as a Chosen, so Elminster in Myth Drannor or thereabouts, it seemed like he was effectively relying on Mystra to get out of a lot of close calls. Mystra was at least backing him up (e.g. when the Srinshee tried to delve into his mind Mystra personally booted her out and added a "killing spell" to Elminster's repertoire in the process in case the Srinshee tried it again) much more noticeably than she did in Temptation or later in life.
As he got older, of course, he developed things like his safehold and his evasion contingency magic, but something could still go horribly wrong and then he's up the proverbial creek. Elminster at the Magefair is one example, since events there resulted in him flat-out losing a fight against a former apprentice turned lich. In the middle of his tower and all his protections, too. He was legitimately beaten and if Storm hadn't been there to destroy the phylactery he quite possibly would have died.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Perhaps. The point, however, is that Elminster says that he isn't sure if he can win against Manshoon, but then goes and kills a lot of Manshoons...
It may or may not be excessively gamist, but before 5E Elminster was a wizard and largely memorised his spells as a wizard would. It's highly unlikely that he went around with a full combat repertoire designed for blowing up Manshoons loaded in his brain all the time. More likely it'd be a travel/utility/"everyday" repertoire. Decent for scaring off smaller opponents, or making a flashy point, but thousand year archmage or not, if he blindly charged into a fight with that second setup while Manshoon had a combat loadout specialised for countering whatever Elminster throws at him it could get very hairy, very fast.
So I might be tempted to theorise that part of him not being sure could very well come down to a "what does the other guy have on hand he can throw at me and what do I have that I can throw at him" calculation in the moment. Walking into a spell duel requires a lot more strategy than who has the biggest (fire)balls. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2021 : 21:50:34
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I think some people claiming that they'd do a better job of being Elminster than Elminster himself are seriously overestimating their own mental abilities; going by officially published statistics, both El and his foes (specifically, the ones who are virtually his peers) have stratospheric Intelligence and Wisdom scores (and Charisma, for that matter) that we can only imagine in the abstract. You don't manage to survive for hundreds if not thousands of years unless you're playing several moves ahead behind the scenes. That which appears to be dumb luck is occasionally anything but.
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
Some more:
1.Too many Gods. The "poor Players" can't learn the names of ALL the gods and remember them all...it's too hard. D&D needs less gods!
One need only view the breadth of our own real-world mythology to blow the "There are too many gods."/"There are too many niche gods." complaint out of the water. In any case, I would argue that the gods themselves are in fact a selling point. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
Edited by - Azar on 21 Sep 2021 00:34:50 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2021 : 01:51:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
Some more:
1.Too many Gods. The "poor Players" can't learn the names of ALL the gods and remember them all...it's too hard. D&D needs less gods!
One need only view the breadth of our own real-world mythology to blow the "There are too many gods."/"There are too many niche gods." complaint out of the water. In any case, I would argue that the gods themselves are in fact a selling point.
What blew my mind was when the 4E designers claimed there were too many gods -- and then added more. |
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Pet peeves: misconceptions about the Realms?
