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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Oct 2021 : 07:55:57
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Hellknights in Pathfinder are a collection of knightly orders devoted to the promulgation of law. While they base their military structure and hierarchy off Hell, they learn that sacrifices must often be made for the greater good, obey draconian regimens of military conduct, commit to encyclopaedic memorization of the laws of their orders and local governing bodies, and undergo constant drills to train their bodies and minds. Their patrons tend to be lawful deities (in universe, there are Hellknights that revere the paladin goddess Iomodae, as well as those that revere Big A himself).
Does Faerun have a similar equivalent?
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2021 : 14:14:12
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Not really an equivalent, but the Warlock Knights of the Vassa have ties to the Abyss.
Greyhawk had the Fiend Knights, which I'm currently adapting to the realms as well. They were spell-altered humans with ties to the hells. |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2021 : 22:14:43
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| There isn't really. And I quite like PF's Hellknights. Personally, I would imagine the closest equivalent to that faction would be Banites/Zhentarim. At least, that's how I believe the Banites should ideally operate. They are oppressive, harsh and ruthless, but they do also bring security and order to society, and in some parts of the world that might be a price worth paying. |
Edited by - deserk on 06 Oct 2021 22:15:49 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2021 : 23:00:59
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
There isn't really. And I quite like PF's Hellknights. Personally, I would imagine the closest equivalent to that faction would be Banites/Zhentarim. At least, that's how I believe the Banites should ideally operate. They are oppressive, harsh and ruthless, but they do also bring security and order to society, and in some parts of the world that might be a price worth paying.
Banites in generally are more focused on the tyranny side of Bane than anything else. That said, I could see a Banite sect, perhaps even a heretical one, that chose to focus more on law than tyranIny. t wouldn't be a mainstream thing, but I could see a smaller group going that way. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2021 : 02:33:09
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Pathfinder Hell Knights seem like a clear ripoff of D&D Death Knights.
Death Knights were originally tied specifically to Dragonlance lore. Though at least one did end up in Raveloft lore. While several others (not originally from Krynn) appeared in Planescape lore - specifically around Lawful(ish) Evil(ish) places like layers of Acheron, Baator, and Gehenna.
It seems easy enough for them to exist in Realmslore. Bane seems like an obvious source. But perhaps Myrkul had some stashed away, as well? And who knows how many cults venerate(d) undead tyrants. Indeed, these tyrannically accursed animates need not be related to any religion at all, plenty of liches could use competent captains for their undead legions. Plenty of unfortunates could be cursed/punished by unlucky magics or unhappy deities (of any alignment). Plenty of warlords might have made infernal pacts with agents of Hell. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Stones Finder
Acolyte
Canada
30 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2021 : 04:02:58
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| Death knights in D&D go back to the 1e Fiend Folio; along with the githyanki, githzerai, and slaad, they were created by future novelist Charles Stross. As for Pathfinder's Hellknights, are you sure you're not getting them mixed up with the Graveknights? The first is a knightly order and prestige class; the second is a mojnster template. |
Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it - Advice for the 5e design team |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2021 : 05:20:13
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I once asked Ed about death knights in the Realms...
"Yes, there are death knights in the Realms, and they're generally called, yep, death knights, though of course there are local nicknames and variants such as "doomhelms."" |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2021 : 13:20:19
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I won't say death knights and Hell Knights are the same only for the mere fact that death knights are undead. That being said, it does bring to mind another group that COULD fit the mold to some degree of the Hell Knights.
There's down in the Shaar, The Knights of the Everlasting Dragon also known as the Knights of the Undying Dragon
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Knights_of_the_Eternal_Dragon
They're somewhat similar.
Plus, like Wooly mentioned, any significant group of those who worship Bane, Iyachtu Xvim, or a group of knights formed around Hoar the Doombring/Assuran would also fit. In fact, that might be a good thing to put down in Chessenta could be a group of these that might call themselves "The Lords of Vengeance".
In a 5e campaign, it very much could fit that followers of Asmodeus in Impiltur might form up a similar group.... also the Knights of the Shield following Gargauth might actually have a crusader arm of their group, though that might be pushing things. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 07 Oct 2021 13:24:04 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2021 : 15:12:21
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Stone's Finder is correct, the death knight predates the Dragonlace setting as it first appeared in the 1e Fiend Folio.
I'm actually a little surprised that something similar to the hellknights don't actually exist in the published Realms given all the work Ed did on the Nine Hells in early editions of Dragon Magazine.
At any rate, I encourage all who are interested to look at Matt Colville's homebrew class the Illrigger. They fit the bill perfectly and serve the lords of the Nine. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2021 : 16:05:13
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| On the idea of the Warlock Knights of Vaasa and fitting them into 5e, I hadn't actually thought about it, but having SOME of them be warlocks who take the hexblade option seems a good build to me, with having Telos as their patron for their Pact of the Iron Ring. Obviously, there should be other builds as well, such as "dark paladins" with the oath of conquest, fighters with the eldritch knight option, etc.... I know they also numbered wizards amongst their ranks too. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2021 : 03:21:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Pathfinder Hell Knights seem like a clear ripoff of D&D Death Knights.
Death Knights were originally tied specifically to Dragonlance lore. Though at least one did end up in Raveloft lore. While several others (not originally from Krynn) appeared in Planescape lore - specifically around Lawful(ish) Evil(ish) places like layers of Acheron, Baator, and Gehenna.
It seems easy enough for them to exist in Realmslore. Bane seems like an obvious source. But perhaps Myrkul had some stashed away, as well? And who knows how many cults venerate(d) undead tyrants. Indeed, these tyrannically accursed animates need not be related to any religion at all, plenty of liches could use competent captains for their undead legions. Plenty of unfortunates could be cursed/punished by unlucky magics or unhappy deities (of any alignment). Plenty of warlords might have made infernal pacts with agents of Hell.
Uh... those are graveknights in Pathfinder. Hellknights are a collection of military orders. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2021 : 03:47:18
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| I did get my hellknights and graveknights mixed up, lol. |
[/Ayrik] |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2021 : 11:29:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
There isn't really. And I quite like PF's Hellknights. Personally, I would imagine the closest equivalent to that faction would be Banites/Zhentarim. At least, that's how I believe the Banites should ideally operate. They are oppressive, harsh and ruthless, but they do also bring security and order to society, and in some parts of the world that might be a price worth paying.
Banites in generally are more focused on the tyranny side of Bane than anything else. That said, I could see a Banite sect, perhaps even a heretical one, that chose to focus more on law than tyranIny. t wouldn't be a mainstream thing, but I could see a smaller group going that way.
I think that the Dark Three were kind of misused. Bane should have been feared by the 'good folk' of Faerun (or at least the Harpers and their ilk) because he was genuinely the most popular of the evil gods and the most successful. The Hellknights would have been a symbol of the strength and success of the Lord of Tyrants, bringing law to the lawless and even operating in good-aligned kingdoms where the Harpers hated them for not only being professional, but also for being nigh-impossible to infiltrate.
I think that should have been an interesting twist - when Bane died, the order and discipline went out from the Banites as Cyric swept in, with the Hellknights hanging up their arms in despair or simply losing faith as a mad god made a mockery of their Black Lord's work.
When Bane returned, the reinvigorated Hellknights launched a pogrom against Cyric's worshipers in a righteous crusade, and even the likes of Alustriel politely turned their heads away as Hellknights stormed the dens of Cyric's faithful.
Myrkul and Bhaal could have similar knightly orders in the overall Hellknight hierarchy, though instead of "Hellknight", maybe Knights of Avalas would be a better fit, considering their primary patron's home plane. The Knights of the Undying Dragon fit as one of the many orders under the knights' banner. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2021 : 14:53:47
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That's a good point. Bane and Cyric both have been used as a God of Evil type, instead of being more focused on their specific areas. Myrkul has always been portrayed as the "Death is scary!" type, and Bhaal has been depicted as "Gotta kill 'em all!"
All evil, but rendered generic and bland. It's part of why I've never had much use for any of them. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2021 : 17:20:03
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It always troubled me how easily Cyric took Banes worshippers. I know there were those who held out, but for the most part, he seemed to take over fairly quickly (mayhaps I'm remembering my Realms history wrong though). It seems to me that the extreme discipline that Banites exhibited would have kept them in power in many places and at least present, if diminished, in many others. Most of the holdouts turned to Iyachtu Xvim as a natural successor and I rather liked him as a deity.
In my Realms, they didn't die during the Avatar Crisis so my history skews from canon. And I agree with Wooly - The Three were too generic and bland in the published Realms. In my Realms, the Zhentarim are an extremely successful organization only held at bay by the Harpers and other groups that compete with them (the Cult of the Dragon, the Iron Throne, etc). The Zhentarim also manage to hang on by using assassin's guilds under Bhaal's sway.
For my own reasons, I prefer Kelemvor as the god of the dead so Myrkul has been supplanted (and he actually prefers it that way). He's still a deity in my game but he only has a small following these days and his primary avatar is actually the Crown of Horns. He's currently competing with Velhsaroon for supremacy as a god of undeath but I've been thinking of making him a servant of Kelemvor. Sort of a 'grim reaper' that comes for those souls that have outlived their time in the world and need someone of greater power to bring into the afterlife...but this seems odd to me so I haven't acted on the idea.
Cyric, on the other hand, is my god of madness, apocalypse and suicide. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2021 : 20:24:03
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It might just be me but i view religion in the realms in much the same vein as it was in medieval times.
The clergy have varying levels of devotion and zeal but the laity mostly just pay lip service and go with the flow.
Whether people truly believe the gods exist or not is immaterial, most people will never meet or hear from a god in person even if you follow the canon version peddled by WoTC where the gods pop round for tea and biscuits on a sunday afternoon (or whatever other holy day suits).
So assuming not everyone in a church is an absolute fanatic (because heresies and political intrigue exist even in FR religions), at least 50% of the clergy are in it for the power and probably dont give two hoots who they actually worship as long as they get what they feel they deserve (especially true in an evil religion).
When it comes to the non clergy, they will worship whoever might influence their daily lives the most to give them an extra chance of success. They are happy to pay lip service to many gods, but if that is not an option because of the politics of where they live then one god gets the lions share of pretend devotion.
Assuming the above is true in real and FR life, why should it not also be true for Banites and Cyricists (in fact the Banite - Cyric - Iyachtu Xvim proves how flexible people are in their devotion).
Bane's Church is of course not a universal organisation, and is in fact split into many different churches, all of which appear to have fared differently after Bane's demise.
In Amn, i believe the handover from Bane and Bhaal to Cyric was quite violent and bloody (just hints i found in researching the towers of the eclipse etc).
In the Moonshae Isles the worship of Bane continued as per Manshoon's plan.
In the Moonsea region it would appear that the faithful of Fzoul embraced Cyric as a means to gain power over their rivals lead by the High Imperceptor in Mulmaster.
The non clerical members of the Zhentarim probably couldnt have cared less about which god the clerics worshipped, but as Fzoul's church became increasingly powerful in Zhentil Keep they likely just did as they were told.
Might just be my own observations and complete rubbish but nothing is ever black and white in the realms and i like it that way. And when in doubt, find something in real world history to help rationalise events and behaviour that doesnt make sense. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2021 : 21:26:45
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| you could take Hellriders of Elturel and change their story a bit, say that they were influenced by their time in Baator |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2021 : 21:50:20
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I would also wish that FR designers would have provided more practical and non-evil reasons to worship deities like Bhaal, Myrkul, Bane, etc. besides of course not being a target of their wrath. Because it's always more interesting when NPCs are not moustache twirling villains, but act like real people with real motives, and might be horribly deluded or misguided but firmly believe they are acting good. When it comes with Banites for instance they could have views similar to certain ancient and Renaissance philosophers that society is served best when governed by the strong, and by having a mighty and firm autocratic ruler rather than some corrupt oligarchy or indecisive political bureaucracy, i.e. and that could easily mean becoming an overreaching tyrant. Words like despot and tyrant did of course not originally have a negative connotation in RW history, and I imagine Banites themselves would simply say those words have been tainted due to the propaganda of their religious rivals.
Though I should say that Ed did do a little bit of this in his Elminster's Forgotten Realms, where he explained better than I've seen in other FR sourcebooks, how the worship of evil deities really function in everyday society in the Realms. I just wish there was more material on it.
Regarding the potential of a Banite military order, maybe it could be called something like Dreadknights (similar the Banite Dreadmaster PrC)? Of course, doing a quick Google search, it does seem to be a thing in Warhammer 40k. But of course that's bound to happen with any composition of English words. But it would be interesting to see a Banite organization that is not necessarily connected to the Zhentarim, as there are many places in the Realms where Bane is worshipped where there isn't any Zhentarim activity. |
Edited by - deserk on 11 Oct 2021 21:59:02 |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2021 : 22:27:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
you could take Hellriders of Elturel and change their story a bit, say that they were influenced by their time in Baator
WoTC did exactly that with Baldur"s Gate: Descent into Avernus. How well a job they did is material for a different scroll. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2021 : 22:43:21
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Malarites would sponsor winter hunts and donate the carcasses to poor villages for meat.
Clergy of Auril could run a profitable business in the Shining South providing ice for food or just cooling off during the summer.
Sharrans could be the caretakers of last resort for those considered incurable insane. They erase the patients' memories, which are rather tortured anyway.
Thay, not a Zhentarim controlled land, became a Banite land during the Spellplague.
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
I would also wish that FR designers would have provided more practical and non-evil reasons to worship deities like Bhaal, Myrkul, Bane, etc. besides of course not being a target of their wrath. Because it's always more interesting when NPCs are not moustache twirling villains, but act like real people with real motives, and might be horribly deluded or misguided but firmly believe they are acting good. When it comes with Banites for instance they could have views similar to certain ancient and Renaissance philosophers that society is served best when governed by the strong, and by having a mighty and firm autocratic ruler rather than some corrupt oligarchy or indecisive political bureaucracy, i.e. and that could easily mean becoming an overreaching tyrant. Words like despot and tyrant did of course not originally have a negative connotation in RW history, and I imagine Banites themselves would simply say those words have been tainted due to the propaganda of their religious rivals.
Though I should say that Ed did do a little bit of this in his Elminster's Forgotten Realms, where he explained better than I've seen in other FR sourcebooks, how the worship of evil deities really function in everyday society in the Realms. I just wish there was more material on it.
Regarding the potential of a Banite military order, maybe it could be called something like Dreadknights (similar the Banite Dreadmaster PrC)? Of course, doing a quick Google search, it does seem to be a thing in Warhammer 40k. But of course that's bound to happen with any composition of English words. But it would be interesting to see a Banite organization that is not necessarily connected to the Zhentarim, as there are many places in the Realms where Bane is worshipped where there isn't any Zhentarim activity.
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Hellknights in FR
