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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Aug 2021 : 15:46:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
In the Realms, slavery has been portrayed as a good thing (for instance, in Mulhorand and Thay is acceptable to enslave people that is not from the Mulani heritage... so, slavery and racial supremacism painted as good things), and that's why the place is so problematic; unlike Dark Sun, where slavery is portrayed as an evil practice and one of the problems of that world.
-I don't understand this line of thought and maybe further elaboration would help.
-Never mind the technicalities that were brought up in the next couple of posts with exactly what words were used and how they were used...but so what if it actually was portrayed as a positive thing in their culture/country? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2021 : 15:47:03
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Oh, and if they ever need some help with research, they need only ask. I've never said no.
I think this is a very important statement, right here.
WotC doesn't just have access to everything that they and TSR ever printed for the setting -- they've got access to Ed, Krash, Eric Boyd, and other talented writers/designers. They've got access to the authors. They've got fans that would jump at the chance to help out, even without pay or acknowledgement. Look at the FRWiki -- a lot of information, entirely collated and shared by fans.
If a WotC designer felt they didn't have all the info they needed, they've got plenty of ways to get that info, and they wouldn't necessarily have to do all that much to get it.
Deliberately choosing not to use the resources at hand says a lot about them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2021 : 16:29:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
WotC doesn't just have access to everything that they and TSR ever printed for the setting -- they've got access to Ed, Krash, Eric Boyd, and other talented writers/designers. They've got access to the authors. They've got fans that would jump at the chance to help out, even without pay or acknowledgement. Look at the FRWiki -- a lot of information, entirely collated and shared by fans.
I am sure, based on what they said about old stuff not being canon, that their attitude is "The old writers are great guys but they really don't have the FEEL of the Realms of today. The players of today don't really care that Ferdinand was the King of Waterdeeps two hundred years ago. Today's Realms is just about having fun!" |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2021 : 18:16:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
In the Realms, slavery has been portrayed as a good thing (for instance, in Mulhorand and Thay is acceptable to enslave people that is not from the Mulani heritage... so, slavery and racial supremacism painted as good things), and that's why the place is so problematic; unlike Dark Sun, where slavery is portrayed as an evil practice and one of the problems of that world.
-I don't understand this line of thought and maybe further elaboration would help.
-Never mind the technicalities that were brought up in the next couple of posts with exactly what words were used and how they were used...but so what if it actually was portrayed as a positive thing in their culture/country?
Celebrating slavery because "is just fantasy" is not right. Depriving a person of their freedom (freedom of speech, freedom of choice, whatever other freedom you may think about) is never a positive thing. So, portraying slavery (whether they are well treated or not) as a good thing is like saying that oppression is a good thing. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2021 : 18:38:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Well...no, what you sited was issues YOU had with RAS coming up with reasons why Avendrow and Lorendrow exist, which you've somehow deduced completely upends Existing lore, which it doesn't. Especially when absolutely ZERO dates were given in the event. You assumed it was immediately and I see no reference to that speculation.
Please, reread what I wrote:
quote:
Examples: Mielikki being portrayed as condoning genocide, Vhaeraun being described as the peak submissive drow male (LMAO), Jander Sunstar being done massively dirty (and Lathander being shown as entirely uncompassionate towards him), or the whole retconning of large swaths of elven and drow history.
As for the drow and orcs matter, that's just ridiculous to me. First, the new portrayal is perfectly in line with how the Realms treat those races, if we exclude WotC's obsession with "X race is all evil, hurr durr" in 3e and 4e. The matter is ridiculous not because they're adding new factions--don't mind those at all--but because of how WotC and RAS are parading about it while dismissing the work of others and the existing lore. Different cultures have always been there, and WotC (and RAS too, for the drow) have done nothing but doggedly downplay them. Now WotC are calling the work of the people who tried to give nuance to the drow and orcs "racist" (they literally labeled books like Ed's "The Drow of the Underdark" as such on the DMGuild--a book that gives a portrayal of the drow 100x more nuanced than MToF), and pretending that adding different orc and drow cultures is their doing (and RAS is taking credit for having created the whole FR drow).
All of that while trivializing large swaths of lore, of course, and ironically downplaying once again the first goodly drow *nation*, and the nuance and conflict that its history brings to the whole situation (I've already discussed with you how RAS is trying to replace the history of the drow/elves in FR with his own trivialized version, that is entirely incompatible with the actual history, and that entirely overlooks the thriving center of arts and magic that the Miyeritari culture was).
So yeah, WotC's history with respecting the setting doesn't look too reassuring to me.
1)I've given you 3 other examples (and glaring ones at that), which you conveniently ignored.
2)Even if we restrict the attention to the history of drow and elves, my problem isn't a personal issue with RAS coming up with reasons to justify Aeven and Loren. Actually, he didn't even give any reason, he just said "some drow never followed Lolth", which is the same as saying "they exist. The end", and which is totally ok to me, because it *already was in the lore* (though he's acting like he made some huge breakthrough, and is downplaying the drow who never followed Lolth who *already* existed in the lore, like he did for 30+ years--for longer than I've been alive, ffs). Saying that my point was about personal issues with RAS finding reasons to make Aeven and Loren exist is just a strawman, honestly.
The objective problem is about the trivialization and retconning of the lore to allow RAS to plop his "vision", as he calls it in the Dragon+ article, on the Realms. If you still don't believe me about the retcon, and want me to address the inconsistencies with the history of drow and elves in FR again, I'll go over it below (though I already did for you in the past, and you never replied to me). For now, I'll tell you that the retcon started with MToF, which presents a version of the events incompatible with FR (a couple changes I *personally* found to be appropriate, tbh, like the curse into a darker skin being replaced with something else, but that's beyond the point. This matter isn't about what I prefer, this matter is about the statement that people who still care aren't justified in feeling worried, which they totally are).
ANother problem is the dismissing attitude towards the previous lore displayed in WotC's PR, which comes the point of labeling books like Ed's "The Drow of the Underdark" as racist, while labeling their newer books (which are MUCH worse than Ed's, who actually tried to give some nuance to the race and at least one goodly culture) as totally ok.
All these problems are pertinent to your question. The matter of the drow and elven history, and the other 3 examples that I made in my previous post, show that WotC are indeed willing to dismiss or ignore older lore, and that they're even willing to disparage it (see the "this is racist" labels). So, returning to your question, which is the reason it prompted me to type that stuff in first place:
"Why would they start now?"
This isn't a matter of "now", at all. Heck, if we want to dig, screw the 3-4 examples that I gave you: this dates to editions before 5e, where they went to the point of distorting the portrayal of characters to make people dislike them. if that isn't telling, I don't know what it is.
Seriously, man, what do you think is enough to justify someone who cares about the setting seeing their new statement, looking back at what WotC did in the past, and feeling worried or pissed?
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Especially when absolutely ZERO dates were given in the event. You assumed it was immediately and I see no reference to that speculation.
We had the exact same conversation in another thread but, I've also explained why you don't even need to get specific dates, given the details they gave. However, as said, I'll go over it again.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
For me, this doesn't change the lore at all. I'm going on my own interpretation that
A) Lloth betrayed the Seldarine
B) The 4th Crown Wars occur, showing a significant amount of Ilythiir elves using dark magic.
C) Corellon curses them, in entirety without exception.
D) Lloth, seeing the treatment reveals to them that she is the source of their magic (right or wrong, we don't know?) leading them from the sunlit world to the Underdark, where they found Menzoberranzan.
E) Some 'cursed drow don't follow Lloth and instead head north / south to flee.
That's already changing a lot of history.
The Ilythiiri, after being exiled, didn't immediately follow Lolth. We know that, starting since the Second Crown War, Lolth's cult was spreading among the Ilythiiri *rulers*, not even the people as a whole, and that they already knew it was Lolth who was giving them powers.
However, after the drow were chased underground by the combined might of the remaining elven armies (they didn't choose to go under), they didn't build civilizations for a long time. When they started pulling their sh*t together, Lolth was among the main deities worshipped, but Ghaunadaur rivaled her. It isn't like the drow "listened to Lolth" and went down. That's bullshit. Lolth became so prominent only after even a longer time.
Also, Menzo was founded *millennia* after the Descent, while these articles imply that Lolth rebelled, some drow followed her willingly into the Underdark, and founded Menzo. Setting aside that this is nonsensical characterization (why would Lolth want to go underground after rebelling, instead of claiming good land on Toril? She was kicked from Arvandor, not from the surface of Toril, and she wasn't that evil and cruel according to the Mordenkainen story. She just wanted the elves to develop their full potential)--this is just false in FR history.
As for the cursed drow who didn't follow Lolth, that already was in the lore. They should have used those drow and tie the new enclaves to them. Moreover, going by logic, these cities should be tied to either Ilythiir or, most likely, survivors of Miyeritar.
[...]
In addition to that, the way they talk in the articles is disconnected from the FR history and instead uses the Mordenkainen retcon (Lolth rebelled against Corellon, some elves immediately followed her, they became drow. There wasn't any time in which Lolth was forgotten, any time in which Ilythiir and Miyeritar appeared, etc...)
One final note, they're saying that the drow who followed Lolth are a minority. While I don't mind this, because the natural evolution of events should totally lead to this, they're not doing it by developing the story and having Lolth lose ungodly numbers of followers because of how idiotic her whole premise is. They're saying that most drow didn't follow Lolth and remained on the surface, while only a spinter group went down. This has 2 major consequences, as well as internal inconsistencies:
1)Using the assumption that they're using, aka "the drow followed Lolth, they weren't chased underground",#1609; and "the curse didn't happen", why would this majority of drow who didn't follow her stay hidden? They're the majority, or at least they have big numbers. No need to hide. Even if some of them wanted to stay hidden, why there weren't splinter groups who didn't want to hide, and instead went their own way to found other settlements and whatever, like you'd expect in situations like this (because, you know, people aren't a hive mind)? Don't give me "reputation" as an answer, because they could have done this even before the Lolthite started to spread their crap.
2)If the majority of drow consists of 2 cities on the surface, then that's one more proof they're erasing all underdark drow cities except Menzo, because if they acknowledged the many underdark udadrow cities, then there's no way that Callidae and Saekolath would make up the majority of the drow. Hints are already there, for example Saekolath being south and therefore being described as "far from Lolth's influence", which is stupid, because the south has bastions of Lolthite faith. This further reinforces the idea that Menzo is the only udadrow city in their mind (or the only relevant udadrow city).
Meanwhile, what Mordenkainen combined with article says not only is incompatible with the lore, it's also incompatible with what you said. They say:
1)Lolth rebels.
2)The drow are born with her rebellion, by virtue of being primal elves who sided with Lolth (already a massive retcon, which makes the drow much more strongly tied to Lolth).
3)Some drow hear Lolth's whispers (before the Descent, because they were on the surface, but after the rebellion, of course). They decide to follow her and go underground to found Menzo.
4)The majority of drow stays above, but hides.
No trace of Crown Wars as we know them here. 4) and 5) replace the "epilogue" of the Crown Wars (as far as the drow are concerned), the Descent, and there's timeline problems with the foundation of Menzo (or the first post-Descent drow civilization at that, or the timeline of Lolth being their main goddess), as I said.
Now it's no longer too early to make statements. RAS' novel is out, and the version of the history it proposes is the same as the trivialized one we're given in the articles.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 07 Aug 2021 07:08:17 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2021 : 20:19:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Great Worm, or Golden Eagle?
It's the "the unknown one"..... the tribe of the Purple Panther... the ones who were thought to have died out long ago fighting the tribe of the yellow snowman. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 06 Aug 2021 20:23:16 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2021 : 06:19:46
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Great Worm, or Golden Eagle?
It's the "the unknown one"..... the tribe of the Purple Panther... the ones who were thought to have died out long ago fighting the tribe of the yellow snowman.
Black Lions actually. Who I've decided (for my personal canon ...   ) to have a rather different origin than the other tribes.
But I was thinking that I'd like to make more defunct Uthgardt tribes. Flabbergasted that there was never a White Boar tribe or Green Stag tribe, etc. Hmm ...
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2021 : 10:24:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Definitely more tribes please. Different origin for some tribes works for me.
I just read today that the kobolds of the ice lakes by old Illusk wiped out local Uthgardt, could have been a whole tribe unnamed. Same goes for any area suspiciously devoid of the Uthgardt. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2021 : 23:05:41
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Great Worm, or Golden Eagle?
It's the "the unknown one"..... the tribe of the Purple Panther... the ones who were thought to have died out long ago fighting the tribe of the yellow snowman.
Black Lions actually. Who I've decided (for my personal canon ... ) to have a rather different origin than the other tribes.
But I was thinking that I'd like to make more defunct Uthgardt tribes. Flabbergasted that there was never a White Boar tribe or Green Stag tribe, etc. Hmm ...
-- George Krashos
I like the idea of a "green stag" tribe, if its using wildleaf stags (something I came up with in Anchorome, but have yet to actually stat... but kind of unicorn like deer... and I say unicorn like only in the way they fit in the ecosystem, not duplicating abilities). Me and AJA were discussing using some in his 5 NPC's thread like last month'ish (he had a "Yellow Birch-Stag" in the Westwood, and I said basically what if its multiple stags and they're using connecting portals from around the world, and these got here via "The Place of the Unicorn" which is near there).
If you are interested, some notes from the thread below. AJA seemed amenable to the idea. Could be that these stags are found in the High Forest as well, but deep in there, such that only elves know about them. They might live amongst hybsil as well.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by AJA
The Yellow Birch-Stag
A glorious golden buck, long-spotted throughout the Westwood. Said to be a woodland companion of Mielikki herself, and to be able to barkskin at will through some unknown weal or innate ability. Legend has it that only the most skillful and fleet hunter could win past its defenses and bring it down. Many have tried, and it seems that the Birch-Stag enjoys sporting with them on occasion, sometimes leading them on a merry chase before disappearing, and sometimes leading them right into the midst of an orc hunting camp or owlbear den.
regarding this buck, I have a sneaking suspicion that it should be "bucks", and I believe that they may have come through a portal in "The Place of the Unicorn" west of Leilon from the Adusgee Forest of Anchorome. They may be wildleaf stags, seen mainly in autumn when the coloring of their hide changes to a rich golden hue. It's been rumored that the site known as Raelkath's Sprout is the source of a randomly moving portal network that seems to open all over Toril for very brief moments (rumors of it periodically opening into the southern portion of the Yuirwood near Relkath's Foot have been mentioned at least thrice in the past millenium). It may be that either these are distinctly wildleaf stags OR a wildleaf stag has come through and mated with a regular elk and produced a new breed (or even a unicorn, for the truth of the birthing of wildleaf stags is unusual as well, being as they result from a breeding of shatjan and dryad that occasionally results in offspring that is like neither parent).
from the "Brainstorming Anchorome" thread
Wildleaf Stag of the Adusgee Forest : This unusual form of reindeer possesses horns and hooves of evergrowing wood, as well as a coat not of fur, but rather leaves. In the spring and summer, these leaves are a vibrant green, but in the fall they turn rich reds, browns, and oranges. In the winter, they do not lose their wooden antlers, but they do lose all of their leaves, revealing a pale white fibrous skin. These creatures are notedly hard to track for their natural ability to pass without trace. They also possess a latent ability to perform the druidcraft cantrip, but only in the form of making seeds sprout, flowers bloom, etc.... Their fecal matter is a prized fertilizer, and the snow elves of the north like to trim their leaves before they fall off for winter in order to treat them alchemically to be woven into armor. There are at least three different varieties of Wildleaf stag, each variety possessing different druidic powers in relation to plants, but all seem to possess an ability to transport via plant. These creatures are primarily found in the northwestern portion of the forest, near Raelkath's Sprout, but a large number of them also appear in the vale currently held by the Abeil in the center of the forest.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 07 Aug 2021 23:08:48 |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2021 : 23:14:07
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Definitely more tribes please. Different origin for some tribes works for me.
I just read today that the kobolds of the ice lakes by old Illusk wiped out local Uthgardt, could have been a whole tribe unnamed. Same goes for any area suspiciously devoid of the Uthgardt.
Part of me doesn't want to derail this scroll anymore than it already has been. But I must ask what resource is that kobold reference from? Been researching kobolds lately and would love to read more about them. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2021 : 02:02:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Celebrating slavery because "is just fantasy" is not right. Depriving a person of their freedom (freedom of speech, freedom of choice, whatever other freedom you may think about) is never a positive thing. So, portraying slavery (whether they are well treated or not) as a good thing is like saying that oppression is a good thing.
-So anything distasteful should not be featured? Not trying to put words in your mouth, trying to understand.
-Products where the lines between featuring things we consider problematic from a moral point of view and actually being harmful propaganda become blurred, like The Turner Diaries or a written compilation of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion for example, yes, I agree. But something that presents whatever that distasteful thing is in a dispassionate or informative way (as in explaining that X occurs and this is how it occurs), why does that also need to be shied away from?
-Just sticking with the slavery thing, if the original products made it very obvious that Mulhorandi or Thayvian slavers were paper thin stand-ins for antebellum southern merchants/plantation owners, that they only enslaved dark skin peoples seized from another land that they considered subhuman, and were very graphic and almost took glee in the writing, I would 100% agree that crosses the line. But when enough detail is made to create a distinct culture (the Mulhorandi are a little too Ancient Egyptian, but close enough) that incorporates slavery in some wider societal manner, I think it becomes devoid of intent and becomes simply a world building device to make of it whatever every individual person does. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 08 Aug 2021 02:04:00 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2021 : 02:26:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-So anything distasteful should not be featured? Not trying to put words in your mouth, trying to understand.
I would not go that far. I'd say that if that stuff is featured, it either should be downplayed or displayed in a way it shows us that this is something negative.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Just sticking with the slavery thing, if the original products made it very obvious that Mulhorandi or Thayvian slavers were paper thin stand-ins for antebellum southern merchants/plantation owners, that they only enslaved dark skin peoples seized from another land that they considered subhuman, and were very graphic and almost took glee in the writing, I would 100% agree that crosses the line. But when enough detail is made to create a distinct culture (the Mulhorandi are a little too Ancient Egyptian, but close enough) that incorporates slavery in some wider societal manner, I think it becomes devoid of intent and becomes simply a world building device to make of it whatever every individual person does.
The thing with Mulhorand is that goes borderline with racial supremacism. They enslave anyone of non-Mulan heritage, for instance. As for the POC stuff, you should remember they displaced the turami from their homeland...
Call me "woke" or whatever, but I just don't like that kind of stuff. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 08 Aug 2021 02:29:17 |
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Scars Unseen
Acolyte
Japan
16 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2021 : 04:51:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-So anything distasteful should not be featured? Not trying to put words in your mouth, trying to understand.
I would not go that far. I'd say that if that stuff is featured, it either should be downplayed or displayed in a way it shows us that this is something negative.
I get what you're saying here, but I think there's a difference between the characters (including the victims) thinking slavery is okay and the audience thinking it's okay. The former would essentially be a fantasy dystopia setting, and would be prime material for a campaign that revolves around the culture shock of PCs coming from outside, and the conflict of wanting to do the right thing versus trying to avoid sparking a war.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Just sticking with the slavery thing, if the original products made it very obvious that Mulhorandi or Thayvian slavers were paper thin stand-ins for antebellum southern merchants/plantation owners, that they only enslaved dark skin peoples seized from another land that they considered subhuman, and were very graphic and almost took glee in the writing, I would 100% agree that crosses the line. But when enough detail is made to create a distinct culture (the Mulhorandi are a little too Ancient Egyptian, but close enough) that incorporates slavery in some wider societal manner, I think it becomes devoid of intent and becomes simply a world building device to make of it whatever every individual person does.
The thing with Mulhorand is that goes borderline with racial supremacism. They enslave anyone of non-Mulan heritage, for instance. As for the POC stuff, you should remember they displaced the turami from their homeland...
Call me "woke" or whatever, but I just don't like that kind of stuff.
If we remove aspects of a campaign world because they're distasteful, you'll soon have a campaign world that only tastes bland. The way to address racial supremacy is not to pretend it doesn't exist. If you want to do that, it's pretty easy to do at gaming table. But whether treated in a quasi-historical context or bringing modern sensibilities to the table, issues we consider problematic can be a valuable source of conflict. Mind you, no one is suggesting that we turn the game into FATAL or anything. |
Edited by - Scars Unseen on 08 Aug 2021 04:52:47 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2021 : 05:42:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Definitely more tribes please. Different origin for some tribes works for me.
I just read today that the kobolds of the ice lakes by old Illusk wiped out local Uthgardt, could have been a whole tribe unnamed. Same goes for any area suspiciously devoid of the Uthgardt.
Part of me doesn't want to derail this scroll anymore than it already has been. But I must ask what resource is that kobold reference from? Been researching kobolds lately and would love to read more about them.
Dragon #216 - "Elminster's Notebook - Kobold Commotions".
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 09 Aug 2021 12:12:56 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2021 : 11:27:05
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Given that the Mulan are heavily implied to have been real world Egyptians and Mesopotamians that were enslaved and then went on to enslave in turn, I have no idea how this could possibly be construed as an issue with American 'POC'. Slavery predated the US, and I doubt the designers were thinking of American slavery when they designed the Egyptian/Mesopotamian stand-ins.
I mean, go look at games like Morrowind, where the entire game takes place among a culture that promotes slavery without casting moral judgment. |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2021 : 12:44:06
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| Zeromaru X, I think what's worst is that you are making a lot insidious assumptions about the books without bothering to back up your claims with evidence. First you claim that slavery was shown to be a good thing in the books, which I would say has now thoroughly been debunked as shown in the previous posts. Now you make claims that the Mulani don't enslave anyone of Mulani descent. There might be some truth that a fair chunk of the slaves in Thay and the Old Empires might be outlanders, but there is nothing explicitly says that the Mulani are not taken as slaves in their own homelands. This seems very unlikely in both Unther and Mulhorand where slaves make up the largest percentage of the overall population, and both of those lands are predominantly Mulani. The slavery of these lands resembles the slavery of the Ancient Greece, Rome and Egypt. Anyone severely down on their luck could potentially end up as slaves in these societies. That could be anyone, from those those abducted by bandits, unfortunates whom owe massive debts, political prisoners that have ended up on the losing side of a civil conflict or war, etc. Not to mention these lands have had a lot of internal strife as well as many wars between each other (Unther vs Mulhorand, Thay vs Mulhorand, Unther vs Chessenta, etc). |
Edited by - deserk on 08 Aug 2021 12:54:27 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2021 : 04:07:36
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| Mayhaps we can move on from the entire slavery in Mulhorand discussion and swing back to something closer to the original discussion? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2021 : 10:13:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Mayhaps we can move on from the entire slavery in Mulhorand discussion and swing back to something closer to the original discussion?
I agree with not wanting "personal attacks" and trying to keep things civil, but if someone says that the Realms present slavery (or any other despicable thing) in a favorable light while being dead wrong they NEED to be challenged and those assumptions NEED to be shown invalid until hard proof has been given.
I've said this in another scroll a long while back: misconceptions of the kind of morals and ethics presented in the Realms should not be tolerated.
On the original topic: I'm trying to wrap my mind around what type of legal obligations WotC/Hasbro would have with Ed, because this statement basically disregards anything the public knew about the relationship between Ed and Realms canon and I'm very curious to understand what happens now. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2021 : 12:11:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
On the original topic: I'm trying to wrap my mind around what type of legal obligations WotC/Hasbro would have with Ed, because this statement basically disregards anything the public knew about the relationship between Ed and Realms canon and I'm very curious to understand what happens now.
Nothing happens now.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2021 : 13:33:45
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| regarding legal issues over canon and what Ed says.... I don't think Ed's got the money to fight Hasbro... and quite frankly, IF I WERE HIM, at this point in my life, I don't know that I'd care unless they told him to desist writing things or came after him legally somehow. The only thing he might care about is if they quit letting him write things for money, but he's doing a lot of side work (and he is 62 guys... I know after 60, I don't want to work anymore... probably won't happen, but I'm shooting for that). Let's face it, the published realms is far from what he originally had in mind at this point. His ideas are great and I'm happy to hear them, but the idea that Hasbro/WotC would have to follow along mopping up behind him to fix anything he might say is untenable, especially since he's an outside contractor. Throw into the arena as well that those contracts were written up with TSR, not WotC, not Hasbro... and any lawyer worth his salt would be able to argue and win a case that ends up with Ed getting some kind of pay off (hopefully) and a polite thank you. Now, if something does happen, you can make me eat my words, but that's how I see things, especially in this crazy new world we live in where litigation is often "litigation by whim of the court". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2021 : 16:14:04
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Mike Krahulik has been viciously transphobic in the past and broadly has a checkered record; consider leaving him out of your public complain at a soulless corporation about their IP campaign.
Never heard of the guy before you brought him up, but since you did....
Michael Krahulik is an American artist for the webcomic Penny Arcade and co-founder with Jerry Holkins of Child's Play, a charity that organizes toy drives for children's hospitals.
sounds like a horrible person.....
A quick google will show you over a decade of transphobia controversies and an incident where his webcomic featured a sexual assault joke that he sold merchandise referencing after outcry. Him having done charitable work does not erase his prior misdeeds.
You say youve never heard of the man. Why defend him?
Gasp, he made a controversial joke, in this day and age, lets string him up! /s
I don't know this guy for the record, I'm just sick of cancel culture on Principle.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2021 : 16:28:07
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
regarding legal issues over canon and what Ed says.... I don't think Ed's got the money to fight Hasbro... and quite frankly, IF I WERE HIM, at this point in my life, I don't know that I'd care unless they told him to desist writing things or came after him legally somehow. The only thing he might care about is if they quit letting him write things for money, but he's doing a lot of side work (and he is 62 guys... I know after 60, I don't want to work anymore... probably won't happen, but I'm shooting for that). Let's face it, the published realms is far from what he originally had in mind at this point. His ideas are great and I'm happy to hear them, but the idea that Hasbro/WotC would have to follow along mopping up behind him to fix anything he might say is untenable, especially since he's an outside contractor. Throw into the arena as well that those contracts were written up with TSR, not WotC, not Hasbro... and any lawyer worth his salt would be able to argue and win a case that ends up with Ed getting some kind of pay off (hopefully) and a polite thank you. Now, if something does happen, you can make me eat my words, but that's how I see things, especially in this crazy new world we live in where litigation is often "litigation by whim of the court".
WotC has NEVER had to follow along, fixing anything Ed might say. Never.
1) Usually Ed is either filling in the blanks WotC has left open, or
2) he's fixing what they've said, reconciling it with prior lore.
The agreement was that Ed was canon until they said something superseding him. So they didn't have to pay any attention at all to what he said on a web forum -- their canon has always overwritten his, by default. If he says A and they say B, B wins and there's no reason to acknowledge that he said A.
And whether here or on Twitter, Ed's never had the reach that WotC does.
Quite frankly, I doubt they pay any attention to him at all if he's not writing something specifically for their use. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2021 : 03:44:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
WE ARE DONE with the topic of Mike Krahulik. 
We have more important questions, like whether Wooly Rupert is really a woolly mammoth, a woolly rhinoceros, or a mouse with a keyboard.
I'm leaning towards a mouse. It's why he banhammers people instead of goring them to death with his oversized tusks or horns. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2021 : 04:26:53
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
WE ARE DONE with the topic of Mike Krahulik.
We have more important questions, like whether Wooly Rupert is really a woolly mammoth, a woolly rhinoceros, or a mouse with a keyboard.
I'm leaning towards a mouse. It's why he banhammers people instead of goring them to death with his oversized tusks or horns.
Nope, we have already established he is indeed a giant space hamster. His preferred method of execution is his giant hamster ball of death. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2021 : 09:15:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
WotC has NEVER had to follow along, fixing anything Ed might say. Never.
1) Usually Ed is either filling in the blanks WotC has left open, or
2) he's fixing what they've said, reconciling it with prior lore.
The agreement was that Ed was canon until they said something superseding him.
I agree they never had to follow-up on his stuff because he never gave them cause too. In this kind of "gentlemen agreement" he has always been very sensitive and alert at working in the (quite big) design spaces left open by the publisher (like the excellent DM he is) and he was always in the loop so he never spoiled anything the publisher was working on and he had to do very minor rearrangings/retellings to fix random hiccups here and there.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So they didn't have to pay any attention at all to what he said on a web forum -- their canon has always overwritten his, by default. If he says A and they say B, B wins and there's no reason to acknowledge that he said A.
And whether here or on Twitter, Ed's never had the reach that WotC does.
Quite frankly, I doubt they pay any attention to him at all if he's not writing something specifically for their use.
I agree on this also but in my mind the statement that sparked this topic makes a world of difference in the actual practice of the disregard they can have towards Ed's lore.
Before, they didn't pay attention because they knew he would not pull shenanigans, but his stuff still mattered until game products arrived (and really, how much of his stuff has been overwritten, beside passage of time? The Spellplague was the worst event and it wasn't even targeted, it was just a nuke, and he rebuilt from there).
Now, they don't pay attention because his stuff doesn't matter to the setting. It's like the creator of the setting has been downgraded to a DM like everybody else. Which doesn't look particularly good to me.
Also, another slight tangent on the main topic, but in practice we don't have "canon" for most of the stuff outside the Sword Coast, right? So Thay can be ruled by smurfs, Vaasa be a skiing resort for giffs and Cormyr never actually existed.
Are these extreme examples? Yes.
Could they happen before? No, because they had to adhere to canon.
Can they happen now? Yes, because they said there is no canon anymore.
That's why you need canon in a shared setting. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2021 : 14:55:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
So Thay can be ruled by smurfs,
Hmm, Papa Smurf practiced magic, was the ruling authority in the village, and the only one to wear red...
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Forgotten Realms Novels Not Canon: WotC
