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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jul 2021 : 19:12:43
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Fizban's Treasury of Dragons is the title of this year's last unannounced D&D hardcover:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-gvLfO-5Ww
The book cover was data-mined on the D&D Beyond website a few days ahead of the announcement.
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2021 : 02:02:29
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| I find that name... odd. Fizban's Draconomicon was better, xD Anyways, dragon book! 5e needed one. This is Dungeons & Dragons, not Dungeons & Xanathars... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2021 : 03:33:11
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I’m underwhelmed! Dragons have never hooked me much, we’ve seen what I assume are the bulk of player options in UA already, and the Dragonlance tie-in the title might suggest does nothing for me.
Fingers crossed that 2022 is Dark Sun’s year. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2021 : 04:22:53
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| Admittedly, it doesn't interest me much either. If I wanted more information on dragons (and I don't), there are already plenty of books out there. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2021 : 13:07:24
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| I don't need it any more than I didn't need Volo's Guide to Monsters or Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes (both of which added previous D&D monsters into 5e with some lore that was questionable).... and I still bought them, so I'll probably go with this too. Maybe it will explore draconic lore more and maybe it will be done well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2021 : 14:45:12
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I don't need it any more than I didn't need Volo's Guide to Monsters or Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes (both of which added previous D&D monsters into 5e with some lore that was questionable).... and I still bought them, so I'll probably go with this too. Maybe it will explore draconic lore more and maybe it will be done well.
The Volo book, quite frankly, put me off on this "Famous NPC's Non-Setting Book of Things Not Related to Them" line of products. Some of the stuff in that book was simply painful, and that's even without prior lore being chucked out the window. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2021 : 19:38:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Volo book, quite frankly, put me off on this "Famous NPC's Non-Setting Book of Things Not Related to Them" line of products. Some of the stuff in that book was simply painful, and that's even without prior lore being chucked out the window.
Glad to see I am not alone. Rather than being additive to to previously material it almost seemed like they were attempting to gut it and leave something simple and easy to digest so that new players and maybe designers didn't have to be bothered with researching old lore.
Reminds me of what happened with Star Wars and how all the old stuff got thrown out in the last few years. *sigh*
Would love to see deep dive material even if its adventure based. Make a town, royal court, back street slum, come alive with lore and content. Don't give me, and here you should run an encounter with 8 skeletons. Who were those skeletons, why are they here, what is the setting and the lore that I find them in, etc, etc, etc. Those things always make me think Ed, but fairness a bunch of the old designers did it, many of whom frequent these halls. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2021 : 19:56:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Volo book, quite frankly, put me off on this "Famous NPC's Non-Setting Book of Things Not Related to Them" line of products. Some of the stuff in that book was simply painful, and that's even without prior lore being chucked out the window.
Glad to see I am not alone. Rather than being additive to to previously material it almost seemed like they were attempting to gut it and leave something simple and easy to digest so that new players and maybe designers didn't have to be bothered with researching old lore.
I think it's a combination of the current design team doesn't want to worry about prior lore, and plus, they've got these really really kewl ideas that they want to inflict on share with us...
quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
Reminds me of what happened with Star Wars and how all the old stuff got thrown out in the last few years. *sigh*
I actually agree with the decision to chuck the EU stuff to the side. As much as I would have loved to have seen the Thrawn books get made into a movie triolgy, the EU was problematic for having different degrees of canon and stuff being one level of canon until Lucas decided he liked contradicting stuff better... It was a mess. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2021 : 08:22:12
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There is a preview of the contents in Amazon:
quote:
Product Description#8203;
Discover everything there is to know about dragons—the most iconic of D&D monsters—in this quintessential reference guide.
Meet Fizban the Fabulous: doddering archmage, unlikely war hero, divine avatar of a dragon-god—and your guide to the mysteries of dragonkind.
What is the difference between a red dragon and a gold dragon? What is dragonsight? How does a dragon’s magic impact the world around them? This comprehensive guide provides Dungeon Masters with a rich hoard of tools and information for designing dragon-themed encounters, adventures, and campaigns. Dragonslayers and dragon scholars alike will also appreciate its insight into harnessing the power of dragon magic and options for players to create unique, memorable draconic characters.
• Introduces gem dragons to fifth edition!
• Provides Dungeon Masters with tools to craft adventures inspired by dragons, including dragon lair maps and detailed information about 20 different types of dragons
• Adds player character options, including dragon-themed subclasses for monks and rangers, unique draconic ancestries for dragonborn, additional spell options, and a feat
• Presents a complete dragon bestiary and introduces a variety of dragons and dragon-related creatures—including aspects of the dragon gods, dragon minions, and more
• Reveals the story of the First World and the role the dragon gods Bahamut and Tiamat played in its creation and destruction
So, they are going to expand on the lore of the First World (first mentioned in Tasha's Guide to Everything), and Bahamut and Tiamat will have a big role in this. Interesting.
Also, it seems the kobold didn't passed the UA test. And this explain why the artist from the Magic set was redesigning the dragonborn looks...
https://twitter.com/ChrisRahnArt/status/1415014527033253888?s=20 |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2021 : 16:30:07
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| I'll never say no to more monster stat blocks, but I'm a lot more interested in the "dragon-related creatures" than the dragons themselves (don't we have enough of those already?). Hopefully they give us new monsters, though, and don't just reprint Guard Drakes for the third time. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2021 : 01:32:26
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Well, the book is going to redefine some dragon lore.
Dragons are natives from the Material Plane: they were created there and their essence its tied to it (IIRC, I've read this in the 2e Draconomicon), as such they can draw on the magic of the natural world directly (so, they at last clarify what exactly "dragon magic" is), and this also explains why they can alter the environment near their lairs. But the connection doesn't stop here. All dragons have been "splintered" between all the worlds of the Material Plane (so, they all have , and when a dragon reach great wyrm status, it can summon the powers of all their echoes from all worlds, became a truly powerful being. This is not limited to the dragon gods, all dragons have "echoes" in all the worlds. However, this is used to explain the Bahamut/Paladine and Tiamat/Takhisis connection.
It was also mentioned that the First World is something that was in "previous editions of D&D". But I only recall it being a thing in the Dawn War mythos from 4e... anyways, they said they searched for mentions of the First World in all editions and that this info has been taken into account for the lore we are going to get in Fizban's. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2021 : 02:12:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
It was also mentioned that the First World is something that was in "previous editions of D&D". But I only recall it being a thing in the Dawn War mythos from 4e... anyways, they said they searched for mentions of the First World in all editions and that this info has been taken into account for the lore we are going to get in Fizban's.
Well, I guess they might refer to the First Sphere/Broken Sphere - the first Crystal Sphere, which shattering, created all others. Though I'm not 100% sure. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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Vaughn Javreau
Acolyte
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2021 : 02:52:58
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quote:
insight into harnessing the power of dragon magic and options for players to create unique, memorable draconic characters.
This definitely grabs my attention. Stat blocks and a few legendary dragons aside, I'm eager to get into what they can bring to table concerning draconic personalities, now that a decent amount of time has passed since the last release of this nature(Big Book of Dragons). |
Boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2021 : 03:32:28
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| Gem dragons make me hope we’ll keep seeing psionic content - fingers crossed for Dark Sun, finally. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2021 : 19:00:16
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In first edition... early first edition... and even in spelljammer technically... there was ONE prime material plane. Then with spelljammer they separated that "single prime" into multiple "crystal spheres" that were all still part of "the prime material". Note the name there... prime material... like singular or main material. So, I guess in theory (and this stretches my memory), in the original it would have been that there was the ability to just fly from one world to the other (and there still was after spelljammer, except that they stuck all these barriers, the phlogiston which connects to no other plane, etc... in the path. Then at some point it started becoming that there were still considered to be a single prime plane, but each would have its own localized outer planes (like Eberron, Dark Sun, and the 3.5e forgotten realms did).
Anyway, that's how I'd explain the first world statements. Not to start arguments about which is better, mind you, and hopefully this doesn't. I personally prefer my outer planar physics to come with a little bit of "wth, the sages don't know what they're talking about", so that all kind of wackiness is possible. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2021 : 03:43:36
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My theory is that there is one Prime, and it has multiple layers -- like many of the other planes. Each crystal sphere is its own layer of the Prime.
This explains how the Primes are so similar, and have such similar creatures, and share connections to the same planes -- but how each Prime can still be different, like how gun powder works in some places but not others.
And this theory works up until we started getting all the retcons and changes from 3E onward.
The First World could be that original layer of the Prime, the one all the others were based on. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2021 : 12:21:01
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| Has Song or Steel Dragons been updated for 5E yet? Or did I miss that? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2021 : 18:20:14
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| There is a steel dragon in a 5e adventure, but they just said "use the stats of the silver dragon for this monster". So, perhaps steel dragons can be featured in this book. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2021 : 18:43:27
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There is already a preview of the Table of Contents. On the Realms related things, there are updates for Tamarand and Eldenser, among others. I'm curious about Rime, because there is a dragon from the Nentir Vale who is named Rime, lol.
Steel and song dragons aren't among the dragons in the book, but they have a sidebar. Perhaps they will receive some conversion things or something.
And Bahamut as the Grand Master of Flowers is D&D canon now.
https://twitter.com/mrlong78/status/1447282655897194507?t=CtwnlSt1DUW6zr9Gkod8Bg&s=19
The poem of First World was also in a video preview. Basically, Bahamut and Tiamat created the First World alongside Sardior, who was their first creation (their child?), and populated it with dragons. Then the other gods appeared with their creations (the mortal races) and invaded the First World to take it by force. Bahamut was defeated the first and he fell, Sardior hid in the center of the world and Tiamat continued the fight until the First World was destroyed, and she was defeated by the other gods and sealed (in the Nine Hells, I assume).
The other gods gave the remains of the First World to their creations: forests to the elves, mountains to the dwarves, humans all over the place, etc.
Bahamut recovered and went to make peace with the other gods and their creations, mourning for Tiamat's lost freedom. Tiamat still rages against their enemies in the Nine Hells, plotting revenge against those who imprisoned her. And Sardior got destroyed himself when the First World was destroyed, but his conscience survived and now is fused with the remains of the First World: the different worlds of the multiverse.
So... They basically changed Bahamut and Tiamat's relationship (they are not enemies, just have different approaches to how to deal with the invaders), and the dragon gods are the true creators of the multiverse (and this is awfully similar to my own take of the D&D cosmogony,  ) |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 11 Oct 2021 18:57:21 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2021 : 20:50:17
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It's like a compulsion to them,
I was expecting they were to put Tiamat in a better light, given their current take on the alignments. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2021 : 22:24:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
There is already a preview of the Table of Contents. On the Realms related things, there are updates for Tamarand and Eldenser, among others. I'm curious about Rime, because there is a dragon from the Nentir Vale who is named Rime, lol.
Steel and song dragons aren't among the dragons in the book, but they have a sidebar. Perhaps they will receive some conversion things or something.
And Bahamut as the Grand Master of Flowers is D&D canon now.
https://twitter.com/mrlong78/status/1447282655897194507?t=CtwnlSt1DUW6zr9Gkod8Bg&s=19
The poem of First World was also in a video preview. Basically, Bahamut and Tiamat created the First World alongside Sardior, who was their first creation (their child?), and populated it with dragons. Then the other gods appeared with their creations (the mortal races) and invaded the First World to take it by force. Bahamut was defeated the first and he fell, Sardior hid in the center of the world and Tiamat continued the fight until the First World was destroyed, and she was defeated by the other gods and sealed (in the Nine Hells, I assume).
The other gods gave the remains of the First World to their creations: forests to the elves, mountains to the dwarves, humans all over the place, etc.
Bahamut recovered and went to make peace with the other gods and their creations, mourning for Tiamat's lost freedom. Tiamat still rages against their enemies in the Nine Hells, plotting revenge against those who imprisoned her. And Sardior got destroyed himself when the First World was destroyed, but his conscience survived and now is fused with the remains of the First World: the different worlds of the multiverse.
So... They basically changed Bahamut and Tiamat's relationship (they are not enemies, just have different approaches to how to deal with the invaders), and the dragon gods are the true creators of the multiverse (and this is awfully similar to my own take of the D&D cosmogony, )
Who were the 3 dragons in Eberron and what were their roles? Sounds like maybe they were trying to fit Bahamut, Tiamat, and Sardior into the roles Eberron, Siberys, and Khyber to some degree?
When I google them, this is what I see:
The Progenitor Dragons are Siberys, Khyber, and Eberron. The legend of the origin of the world of Eberron states that these three great dragons created the planar system and created (or discovered) the Draconic Prophecy. The Progenitors are often described as being siblings.
According to myth, after the Progenitors created much of the universe, Khyber betrayed her brethren and murdered Siberys. Eberron then used her own body to bind and trap Khyber in the depths of the world. Siberys is now (or was) referred to as "the Dragon Above," Eberron "the Dragon Between," and Khyber "the Dragon Below." The body of Siberys is said to have formed the Ring of Siberys, while Eberron became the surface world of the planet Eberron and Khyber became the underground realm of the same name, trapped within Eberron. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2021 : 07:20:34
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| I've seen some people talking about how this will be a good idea to reconcile Eberron lore with the D&D metalore. The Eberron fans weren't thrilled, |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 12 Oct 2021 07:21:53 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2021 : 17:08:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I've seen some people talking about how this will be a good idea to reconcile Eberron lore with the D&D metalore. The Eberron fans weren't thrilled,
Oh, so they get a hint of the slightest taste of what's happened to the realms ..... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2021 : 00:54:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I don't need it any more than I didn't need Volo's Guide to Monsters or Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes (both of which added previous D&D monsters into 5e with some lore that was questionable).... and I still bought them, so I'll probably go with this too. Maybe it will explore draconic lore more and maybe it will be done well.
The Volo book, quite frankly, put me off on this "Famous NPC's Non-Setting Book of Things Not Related to Them" line of products. Some of the stuff in that book was simply painful, and that's even without prior lore being chucked out the window.
I pretty much stopped buying 5E hardcovers after getting burned by Volo's Guide to Monsters.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2021 : 01:39:15
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And now they've announced another Critical Role hardcover. And the latest adventure book contains a clown NPC named Thaco who hates children and grumpily guards a gate.
I don't know what older D&D fans did to piss Wizards off, but they obviously don't want their business anymore. |
Edited by - HighOne on 14 Oct 2021 01:39:29 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2021 : 05:28:42
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
And now they've announced another Critical Role hardcover. And the latest adventure book contains a clown NPC named Thaco who hates children and grumpily guards a gate.
I don't know what older D&D fans did to piss Wizards off, but they obviously don't want their business anymore.
It's not that they don't want our business as much as they'd rather have the business of people that don't know what they're missing.
WotC would have to put in some serious effort to keep older fans happy -- doing research, maintaining continuity, not shoving things anywhere they can, actually thinking up and providing lore and stories.
Instead, they're chasing after the new audience that doesn't know when something is a retcon or comes from another setting, an audience that has grown up with the idea that everything has a limited shelf life and that you're going to forget about it and move on to something else.
It's like I've previously pointed out: aside from adventures, WotC isn't writing anything new any more. They're rehashing old settings and publishing settings other people have written. They're minimizing their effort so they can maximize their profits.
Obviously, all of this is my opinion; I've no inside knowledge or anything like that of the decision-making process at WotC. But I know what I've been seeing for a while now, and I can extrapolate from that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2021 : 01:15:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
And now they've announced another Critical Role hardcover. And the latest adventure book contains a clown NPC named Thaco who hates children and grumpily guards a gate.
I don't know what older D&D fans did to piss Wizards off, but they obviously don't want their business anymore.
It's not that they don't want our business as much as they'd rather have the business of people that don't know what they're missing.
WotC would have to put in some serious effort to keep older fans happy -- doing research, maintaining continuity, not shoving things anywhere they can, actually thinking up and providing lore and stories.
Instead, they're chasing after the new audience that doesn't know when something is a retcon or comes from another setting, an audience that has grown up with the idea that everything has a limited shelf life and that you're going to forget about it and move on to something else.
It's like I've previously pointed out: aside from adventures, WotC isn't writing anything new any more. They're rehashing old settings and publishing settings other people have written. They're minimizing their effort so they can maximize their profits.
Obviously, all of this is my opinion; I've no inside knowledge or anything like that of the decision-making process at WotC. But I know what I've been seeing for a while now, and I can extrapolate from that.
I agree with most of this, except I would point out that they ARE converting some of their magic campaigns and trying to turn it D&D games. Some of them aren't half bad conceptually... they are very focused in their storyline though (like how people complain sometimes that there's only a few stories to tell in Krynn). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2021 : 02:04:14
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I agree with most of this, except I would point out that they ARE converting some of their magic campaigns and trying to turn it D&D games. Some of them aren't half bad conceptually... they are very focused in their storyline though (like how people complain sometimes that there's only a few stories to tell in Krynn).
But that's still taking something that's already been done and making a new product out of it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Fizban's Treasury of Dragons
