| Author |
 Topic  |
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Oct 2021 : 19:28:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I agree with most of this, except I would point out that they ARE converting some of their magic campaigns and trying to turn it D&D games. Some of them aren't half bad conceptually... they are very focused in their storyline though (like how people complain sometimes that there's only a few stories to tell in Krynn).
But that's still taking something that's already been done and making a new product out of it.
Yeah, just pointing out that they are trying to stretch their wings a little bit, and I wouldn't be surprised if the people doing it weren't the ones that actually helped on those card sets. They're not just rehashing old D&D material into a new form and then making them all politically correct. Granted, some of these campaign worlds I find really gimp (the idea of Ravnica), but they at least had them expand their wings on adding some more player races, etc... They also aren't over committing themselves to a solid history in most of those worlds yet either (for instance, Theros, all the pre-history is specifically called out as mutable). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
 |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2021 : 20:42:45
|
I won't be impressed until they either A) give us an entirely new setting, developed in-house, or B) actually do something to develop and add to one of their existing settings. And by develop, I don't mean an adventure with a couple of pages of lore that directly supports that adventure, I mean a serious, lore-filled look at something that either hasn't been covered (Say, a Sembia sourcebook) or fully update a previously covered area (like Cormyr) and add more information while they're at it.
I can't even be impressed by new races, because that's something they've always been willing to do -- we had a whole series of "Races of" books in 3E, with new races to fill in little niches and roles that really didn't need to be filled. I found most of those new races to be underwhelming at best.
The only way new races would impress me is if WotC did a setting that had nothing but new races, didn't have any of the standard races, and the new races were more than "existing race #12, but in a different environment!" or "new race that is really just a slight variation on an existing one!" |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2021 : 21:41:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I won't be impressed until they either A) give us an entirely new setting, developed in-house,
This is supposedly in the pipeline:
"In addition to these two titles, we have two brand new #DND settings in early development, as well as a return to a setting we've already covered. (No, these are not M:tG worlds.)"
- Ray Winninger, Head of Dungeons & Dragons (Jun 14, 2021)
Source: https://twitter.com/WinningerR/status/1404492196397522955 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2021 : 01:02:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I won't be impressed until they either A) give us an entirely new setting, developed in-house,
This is supposedly in the pipeline:
"In addition to these two titles, we have two brand new #DND settings in early development, as well as a return to a setting we've already covered. (No, these are not M:tG worlds.)"
- Ray Winninger, Head of Dungeons & Dragons (Jun 14, 2021)
Source: https://twitter.com/WinningerR/status/1404492196397522955
That's not saying it's something developed in-house.
Given what we've seen thus far, I'm assuming they're going to continue the trend of slapping a D&D logo on someone else's developed setting and calling it done.
I'll be pleasantly surprised if I am wrong, but at the moment, I'm just looking at what they've done for the last several years and expecting them to continue using the same formula. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2021 : 01:07:46
|
Looking at the credentials of the current WotC design staff, not a single one has ever engaged in original world building that I can see. So I expect that there is zero chance of them coming out with Ultimaria "the Land of Everything" anytime soon. I don't say that disrespectfully. Designing a whole brand spanking, original campaign setting is beyond the significant majority of game writers. Not that I'm a game writer, but it would be beyond my limited skillset.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2021 : 11:02:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
And then disney inflicted their really really kewl ideas on us.
This is why I hope Disney never buys the Forgotten Realms IP. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2021 : 15:41:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
And then disney inflicted their really really kewl ideas on us.
This is why I hope Disney never buys the Forgotten Realms IP.
I don't get why people keep bashing on Disney. Disney owns Marvel, and I've not heard anyone say that the MCU has been ruined by Disney. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2021 : 23:42:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I guess the difference is they had free reign ti make their own stories or version of stories in the MCU. They reinvented every origin and character for their own purposes, there was nothing they had to follow that came before.
Star wars however had a rich history (good and bad) like FR and they destroyed half of it, ignored the rest and made bits that didn't fit. Just like WoTC did with FR.
I guess business should learn, taking an existing product and mangling it will never end well, not in the long run anyway. They have gotten rid of Kathleen Kennedy and almost everything associated with the sequel trilogy and brought in the clone wars creators to head things up. I just finished the mandalorian and might forgive the travesty that was episode 7 8 and 9 if they make more like it.
It made sense to toss out the EU. There was a huge amount of stuff there, but not all of it was canon, and some that had been canon had been rendered non-canon, and some canon stuff was more canon than other stuff -- and all those varying levels of canon, that was all on Lucas himself.
And nothing's stopping them from bringing back some of the EU elements -- like Grand Admiral Thrawn.
I've seen no evidence AT ALL that the Star Wars movies were influenced by Disney. And while I'll agree that the sequels weren't great, they were still better than the prequels, which were pre-Disney. And Rogue One may be the best movie of the lot.
But oh gods, if you're telling me the Clone Wars creators are getting to do more stuff, that's of huge concern to me. My son, who is 10, made me sit through the Clone Wars series. And oh ye dancing gods, it was painful -- especially with Jedi forgetting they could use the Force like every other episode. Gotta pull a level on the other side of the room to save someone's life? Better start fighting everything in the room, rather than do a quick Force pull. A droid running from three or four Jedi, and it needs to be stopped before bad things happen? Everyone, run after it! A deadly disease in a glass vial about to hit the ground and shatter? Have the Jedi make a desperate dive to try to catch it!
I waited for 6.5 seasons for that show to get worth watching, and it finally got decent partway through the last season. If that show was some sort of high water mark for Star Wars, the franchise is doomed, Disney or no. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2021 : 02:21:23
|
Star Trek, Star Wars, Forgotten Realms. This last decade has been pretty miserable for a lot of my favorite settings getting complete overhauls that don't have the decency to call themselves reboots and stand on their own two feet. Starting to feel a little parasitic to me, honestly.
If WotC wants to make a new setting, then I applaud them. They seem to keep trying to rewrite the older settings into something else, so I think that a creative outlet where they can do what they want unhindered by any obligations to lore of preexisting settings (which they seem to find pretty constraining) would be a benefit to all. My only pause for concern is that it would be unlikely to be a 'true' blank slate since WotC has been leaning heavily on the idea of a unified setting that *has* to include each and every D&D setting under one umbrella and conform them to the same mold. So any major lore changes that happen in this new setting are necessarily going to ripple out to Greyhawk, the Realms, etc. Given their track record in this department, not something I eagerly anticipate.
As for this book, from what I hear it doesn't particularly appeal to me. It sounds like more than a couple old dragon varieties didn't make the cut, which is a shame for fans of Fang Dragons or Steel Dragons etc. The sweeping changes to the multiverse's setting feel rather unwelcome, personally. Dragonlance getting formally dragged kicking and screaming into the same multiverse as the other settings is disappointing, but not unexpected after Eberron. The idea of the Dragon gods as persecuted beings usurped from their throne by the covetous lesser gods doesn't seem particularly original to me, and it feels like it carries veins of antitheist themes, which were already getting a bit obnoxious in 5e. And furthermore, I don't really feel like Tiamat was in need of 'rehabilitation' as a villainess. Particularly after Witchlight just gave us Iggwilv: guardian protector of children which was already pretty ridiculous, IMO. |
Edited by - TKU on 17 Oct 2021 02:21:56 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2021 : 03:22:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
Star Trek, Star Wars, Forgotten Realms. This last decade has been pretty miserable for a lot of my favorite settings getting complete overhauls that don't have the decency to call themselves reboots and stand on their own two feet. Starting to feel a little parasitic to me, honestly.
If WotC wants to make a new setting, then I applaud them. They seem to keep trying to rewrite the older settings into something else, so I think that a creative outlet where they can do what they want unhindered by any obligations to lore of preexisting settings (which they seem to find pretty constraining) would be a benefit to all. My only pause for concern is that it would be unlikely to be a 'true' blank slate since WotC has been leaning heavily on the idea of a unified setting that *has* to include each and every D&D setting under one umbrella and conform them to the same mold. So any major lore changes that happen in this new setting are necessarily going to ripple out to Greyhawk, the Realms, etc. Given their track record in this department, not something I eagerly anticipate.
As for this book, from what I hear it doesn't particularly appeal to me. It sounds like more than a couple old dragon varieties didn't make the cut, which is a shame for fans of Fang Dragons or Steel Dragons etc. The sweeping changes to the multiverse's setting feel rather unwelcome, personally. Dragonlance getting formally dragged kicking and screaming into the same multiverse as the other settings is disappointing, but not unexpected after Eberron. The idea of the Dragon gods as persecuted beings usurped from their throne by the covetous lesser gods doesn't seem particularly original to me, and it feels like it carries veins of antitheist themes, which were already getting a bit obnoxious in 5e. And furthermore, I don't really feel like Tiamat was in need of 'rehabilitation' as a villainess. Particularly after Witchlight just gave us Iggwilv: guardian protector of children which was already pretty ridiculous, IMO.
What's so bad about Dragonlance sharing a multiverse with other settings? That's how it was in 2E. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2021 : 13:41:01
|
So there is (some) Realmslore in this book. And I am reasonably sure that people here will be very annoyed by certain things that it says.
Still, I'll run through things.
The First World
This bit actually isn't all that heavy in its retcons compared with a certain other thing. Essentially, there is a poem, called Elegy of the First World, which posits in poetic form that Bahamut and Tiamat did indeed create a "First World" before the other gods. However, the poem then notes that "other gods came from outside the First World with their mortal followers" - so obviously, there has to be some sort of a place for mortal followers to come from. Which I assume they added intentionally, but maybe I'm attempting to read deeply into something that isn't there.
Of course, Fizban/Bahamut is giving commentary throughout the book. His comment here was "poets do have a way of editing and exaggerating" - from the horse's mouth, or dragon's as the case may be.
In any case, having read the section I would not consider it to be "canon" so much as a possible canon, a creation myth with the truth obscured in poetry and legend.
There is a Toril section in relation to it, which I will quote.
"The most comprehensive histories suggest Toril (the world of the Forgotten Realms setting) has not always known dragons, at least not in their current forms. Many scholars theorize that Toril's dragons evolved from some reptilian ancestor. And though it's possible to read these theories as contradicting the story of "Elegy for the First World," it's also possible to imagine that the newly formed Toril, fragmented from the First World, retained a hazy memory of the full ideal of dragonking, which then took thousands of years to manifest. Certainly, the dragons of Toril cleave closely to the draconic archetypes described in the Monster Manual, and although Bahamut and Tiamat have sometimes been known by other names on that world (such as Xymor and Tchazzar), they have always had a part to play in the world's divine drama."
What will be more annoying for Eberron fans, I think, is that it offers a reason for how Eberron connects to the rest of the D&D multiverse: Siberys, Khyber, and Eberron were Progenitor dragons who are said to have created "a microcosm of the multiverse in the depths of the Ethereal Plane, sequestered away from the Outer Planes and all the influence of the gods and other cosmic powers" - so it is thus a second-generation derivative of the rest of the D&D cosmology.
Anyway!
Dragonsight is a thing. It's something that clearly WotC included to support their First World lore inventions, because the section on it directly opens with "a little-known phenomenon supports the central ideas expressed in Elegy for the First World" - real subtle. Effectively dragonsight allows dragons to be aware of other incarnations of themselves on other worlds in the Material Plane, and gem dragons are most likely to develop it. Dragons that develop it are often called "dragon gods" by mortals even though they are not gods.
Chronepsis (black greatwyrm) is one such, as is Ashardalon - neither are gods.
Character Options
I will skip over most of this, I doubt people here are immensely interested in it for the immediate.
The Way of the Ascendant Dragon, for monks, is said in legend to have been founded by Bahamut, who is known to travel the Material Plane in the guise of a young monk.
One of the Drakewarden origins (Ranger subclass, have a drake as your companion) amused me a bit too: "An ancient Draconic inscription on a standing stone empowered you when you read it aloud." Very Skyrim.
Three feats - Gift of Gem, Chromatic, and Metallic. Metallic is blatantly the best, providing a pseudo-Shield spell and allowing anybody, even wizards, to get cure wounds on their spell list.
For spells, I was weirdly unimpressed with Draconic Transformation in particular. You'd think you would transform into a dragon, but no, you just take on some draconic features. Maybe I'm being too harsh. It's not a great spell anyway.
Magic items, there are some decent ones. The dragonlances of Krynn are given stats; legendary weapons, they give +3 to attack and damage rolls, and when you hit a dragon with one, it takes +3d6 force damage, and any dragon of the wielder's choice within 30 feet that they can see can immediately use its reaction to make a melee attack. There's also the gold canary figurine of wondrous power, which is, as you'd expect, a gold canary figurine (giant canary when activated). And once a year if you're below half health you can make it become an adult gold dragon instead.
Hoard magic items seem to take a lot from Critical Role in design style, albeit not everything. Basically they're items that power up by spending time in a dragon's hoard. Kill a dragon and the hoard magic becomes volatile, powering them up faster.
Draconic Gifts are interesting. Basically like supernatural blessings in 5e, or light boons, mixed with a "permanent magic item" sort of deal. The death of a dragon can result in its power taking root in a character, whether the person was chosen by the dragon or the dragonslayer. They're all good. Kill a dragon, claim its power. Very Skyrim.
Dragons In Play
Big pile of things about how to play dragons. Naming them, RPing them, getting their sense of time down (dragons outlive entire civilisations after all), options for what you can do for reproduction, and so on. One thing is, albeit not specifically Forgotten Realms that it says, that dragons are akin to knots in the fabric of magic and concentrations of power in material form. When they die, that knot is undone, resulting in a surge of magical energy. This can be death throes, so the dragon might do all sorts of things.
Bits of Realmslore in this section:
Dragotha, Klauth, Ingeloakastimizilian, Imvaernarhro, Claugiyliamatar all get mentioned as names of dragons. There's a picture of Old Gnawbone, she's often seen with a mangled corpse hanging from her mouth.
Dracoliches originate with the Cult of the Dragon, and similar rites also exist on other worlds whether spread by cultists from Faerun, invented independently, or discovered by dragons who have dracolich echoes on Faerun. Whenever a dracolich is created, the ripples affect all "echoes" of that dragon on other worlds, spreading like a contagion that makes them increasingly more violent, cruel, and can drive them to seek out undeath themselves.
Bahamut and Tiamat are "different" gods to normal gods.
"Bahamut and Tiamat, the primordial dragons and the purported creators of the First World, are the closest things to gods among dragonkind. Since they share the same fundamental connection to the Material Plane as their dragon offspring, Bahamut and Tiamat are ontologically distinct from the gods that hail from the Outer Planes. But for practical purposes, they are divine - worshipped by mortal creatures, able to grant cleric spells to their followers, and both ageless and immortal."
And now we get to the bit that I'm sure will annoy several people, that being Song Dragons and Steel Dragons.
"The propensity of some metallic dragons to spend long periods of time in Humanoid form has led to numerous bits of folklore, including tales in which these shape-shifters are sometimes erroneously identified as unique varieties of metallic dragons. In the world of the Forgotten realms, stories speak of "weredragons" or "song dragons" which are variously described as "beautiful humans transformed into dragons" or as a distinct variety of metallic dragon. The world of Greyhawk has legends of similar dragons, called either Greyhawk dragons or steel dragons, which are said to favour life among Humanoids in the hustle and bustle of great cities. The creatures featured in these legends are almost certainly copper, silver, or other metallic dragons who simply favoured that particular form. Some dragons even seem to prefer Humanoid form to their own and delight in surrounding themselves with companions who can answer their endless questions about humanoid art, culture, history, and politics."
You heard it here first. They're just copper/silver/whatever who like a particular form.
Onward again.
Cult of the Dragon has a couple more references. The book discusses how Tiamat worked through Severin to alter the foundational beliefs of the Cult of the Dragon, and steered him to the correct translation of the foundational prophecy (fixing the period that Sammaster put in the wrong spot). Severin attempted to bring Tiamat into the world, and "nearly succeeded" but failed. Since that failure the Cult has been sharply divided. Some are pursuing Severin's vision, but others are going back to supporting the old interpretation, and are trying to create more dracoliches.
On Eberron, the Chamber of Argonnessen is becoming aware of the Draconic Prophecy possibly being influenced by other worlds, or other worlds having influence on Eberron. They are examining the possibility of entangled causalities across the entire multiverse.
There is also a group called the Inheritors of the First World, who are dedicated to mastering dragonsight with the intent of combining themselves.
Council of Wyrms is noted as an example of settings where dragons are prominent. An assembly of ancient wyrms representing 88 clans of chromatic, metallic, and gem dragons on the Io's Blood isles.
Draconomicon
There are mentions of various dragons here who are from Toril, only small bits but they do exist.
Eldenser: Tales are "unclear" on whether the ancient amethyst dragon Eldenser still lives. He developed magic that allows his mind to inhabit the blade of a weapon after his death, and definitely does though. No detail on where he is.
Iymrith: Dragon of the Statues, Doom of the Desert. Has an army of gargoyles and is attempting to transcend physical form to become a god. Often appears as a storm giant.
Galadaeros: Still alive on the Purple Rocks. However, his last association with the Galadran Company was over a century ago, and it has been some time since any other outsiders have disturbed the solitude of his isles.
Saryndalaghlothtor: Lady Gemcloak. She has Klauth's enmity, and is exploring the possibility of establishing close ties between the dwarf clan that are her allies and a group of azers on the Elemental Plane of Fire. Also attempting to protect her dwarf allies from the schemes of a hostile mining cartel.
Aremag: Adult dragon turtle laying claim to the southern reaches of the Sea of Swords, exacting tribute from all who enter or leave the Bay of Chult. Very irascible because of the occasional attempts to kill him.
Raulothim: Ancient emerald dragon living in the Pit of Stars on Ruathym. He is exceptionally paranoid after seeing planar travelers in Faerun. He believes an army of interplanar forces invading is inevitable, so he is attempt to survive what he sees as a coming conflict by collecting magic items and amass magic. He is innately mistrustful of anybody else. He keeps careful watch on many planar portals, but on more than one occasion doubt has led him to preemtively strike against a trusted ally.
Tamarand: Current King of Justice of gold dragons throughout Faerun. Thoughtful, decisive, surprisingly friendly. He has strong bonds with the storm giants of the Galena Mountains. He was recently attacked by dragon hunters in his former lair near the Bloodstone Pass, so he is currently residing in the Vaasan wilderness, keeping his exact location a closely guarded secret.
Bleucorundum: Ancient sapphire dragon who despises beholders, losing both parents to beholder attacks. He lairs in/under the Lake of Steam, where he found a martial order known as the Knights of the Crescent Moon. He guards them in their stasis until they awaken, because they fought beholders in an ancient war, and styles himself the Sapphire Sentinel. He is also very lonely.
And that's it. The rest of the book is statblocks and the like. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
|
|
|
ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2021 : 17:22:47
|
They mentioned Bleucorundum?
That one is pretty obscure ... from my adventure in Dungeon #69.
I'm guessing Chris Perkins slipped that one in. |
--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
|
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2021 : 20:07:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
They mentioned Bleucorundum?
That one is pretty obscure ... from my adventure in Dungeon #69.
I'm guessing Chris Perkins slipped that one in.
Got to ask - were you just in a hurry on that name or making a joke? |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2021 : 20:58:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
They mentioned Bleucorundum?
That one is pretty obscure ... from my adventure in Dungeon #69.
I'm guessing Chris Perkins slipped that one in.
Got to ask - were you just in a hurry on that name or making a joke?
Glad I'm not the only person to wonder that... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2021 : 13:12:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
They mentioned Bleucorundum?
That one is pretty obscure ... from my adventure in Dungeon #69.
I'm guessing Chris Perkins slipped that one in.
I'll admit that I didn't know you were the one who invented it! I thought it was WotC making a joke with the name, myself ("blue corundum"). But yes, they do indeed mention him. It is only a brief sidebar, and I don't know if there's much that they actually added, if anything.
Full text:
"Bleucorundum is an ancient sapphire dragon with an equally ancient hatred of beholders and their kin. After losing both parents to beholder attacks, he fled to the Lake of Steam in southern Faerun. There, he discovered the resting place of a martial order known as the Knights of the Crescent Moon, who had fought beholders in an ancient war. Bleucorundum found the knights held in stasis, awaiting the day they would be called upon to fight their ancient enemies again, and he vowed to guard them until they awaken. He styles himself the Sapphire Sentinel, self-appointed guardian of the Sleeping Legion. But his vigil is lonely, and his servitor gargoyles provide little companionship." |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2021 : 09:19:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
They mentioned Bleucorundum?
That one is pretty obscure ... from my adventure in Dungeon #69.
I'm guessing Chris Perkins slipped that one in.
Got to ask - were you just in a hurry on that name or making a joke?
Eric and names ... yeah. 
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2021 : 17:25:13
|
So I'm not anti-5E products by any stretch. I think most have been pretty great, but while most of the community seems to rate Fizban's very highly, I have to say, I found it a bit meh. I did like the whole First World idea for explaining the linkages between the primes and the gods and certainly the book is useful. Some neat and scary monsters, but I kinda miss the 3E draconomicon.
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2021 : 18:38:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
So I'm not anti-5E products by any stretch. I think most have been pretty great, but while most of the community seems to rate Fizban's very highly, I have to say, I found it a bit meh. I did like the whole First World idea for explaining the linkages between the primes and the gods and certainly the book is useful. Some neat and scary monsters, but I kinda miss the 3E draconomicon.
Part of my theory of there being one Prime Material Plane, with infinite layers, is that there was originally just one layer, and other layers were modified copies.
Haven't gotten this book yet, though, to see how the WotC version gels with that idea.
I really dislike the dragonsight thing Eldacar described, though. That sends things in a "infinite parallel universes where everything is almost but not quite the same" direction, something horribly overused in comics and sci-fi, and I don't think that's a good fit for D&D. I also don't think anything prior in D&D has even hinted at such a thing.
And that thing about song and steel dragons? Oh HELL NO. I'm choosing to "unreliable narrator" that bit of info, rather than invalidate existing Realmslore and retcon entire species out of existence. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2021 : 11:13:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
So I'm not anti-5E products by any stretch. I think most have been pretty great, but while most of the community seems to rate Fizban's very highly, I have to say, I found it a bit meh. I did like the whole First World idea for explaining the linkages between the primes and the gods and certainly the book is useful. Some neat and scary monsters, but I kinda miss the 3E draconomicon.
I do note that there's some odd wording that is related to Eberron on this that sounds like word mix mumbo jumbo.... as in they wanted to say its different but gave not much of a meaningful answer, except to point out that its "outer planes" are not the same "outer planes" as everyone else's. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2021 : 16:08:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I really dislike the dragonsight thing Eldacar described, though. That sends things in a "infinite parallel universes where everything is almost but not quite the same" direction, something horribly overused in comics and sci-fi, and I don't think that's a good fit for D&D. I also don't think anything prior in D&D has even hinted at such a thing.
Well, they have been using that concept since the 5e DMG, as they explained any individual game in any official setting as happening in a slightly different parallel world, as well. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
|
|
|
TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2021 : 21:25:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And that thing about song and steel dragons? Oh HELL NO. I'm choosing to "unreliable narrator" that bit of info, rather than invalidate existing Realmslore and retcon entire species out of existence.
Yeah, totally agree. That was unnecessary simplification when just ignoring them would have been better. |
|
|
|
Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2021 : 13:53:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And that thing about song and steel dragons? Oh HELL NO. I'm choosing to "unreliable narrator" that bit of info, rather than invalidate existing Realmslore and retcon entire species out of existence.
Yeah, totally agree. That was unnecessary simplification when just ignoring them would have been better.
Amusingly, Dungeon of the Mad Mage actually has a steel dragon in it, complete with breath weapon and shapechanging ability (page 273). I have no idea if a policy changed between the publication of that and this, or there was just miscommunication somewhere along the line. Or if somebody doesn't like song/steel dragons but somebody else does. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2021 : 14:55:37
|
| IIRC, that steel dragon was just a reskined silver dragon (the text outright says "use the silver dragon stats"). So, there have been no actual steel dragons in 5e so far. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 02 Nov 2021 14:56:05 |
|
|
|
Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2021 : 15:03:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
IIRC, that steel dragon was just a reskined silver dragon (the text outright says "use the silver dragon stats"). So, there have been no actual steel dragons in 5e so far.
Yes and no. It says to use an adult silver dragon as the base and then make changes. Whether that qualifies or not as a "steel dragon statblock" it's definitely said in the text that it is a steel dragon. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2021 : 15:59:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
I have no idea if a policy changed between the publication of that and this, or there was just miscommunication somewhere along the line. Or if somebody doesn't like song/steel dragons but somebody else does.
Given the current team at WotC, it could be any combination of those things.
Rich Baker personally killed plotlines from 2E that he didn't like (like the Harper Schism). Policy changes have been an issue since 2E, and miscommunications happened during that era, but became a lot worse since 3E came out. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2021 : 16:25:41
|
| I'm hesitant to ask considering how Song and Steel dragons seem to have gotten the axe in a very deliberate way, and because of my own very negative opinion of what the Deep Dragons got turned into....but is there any mention of Fang/Gray dragons or Brown Dragons in the book? Those are some of my favorite lesser-known chromatics and I would love to dig my teeth into some more information about them. |
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2021 : 17:56:48
|
| There is none so far I've read. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
|
|
|
Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2021 : 18:58:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
I'm hesitant to ask considering how Song and Steel dragons seem to have gotten the axe in a very deliberate way, and because of my own very negative opinion of what the Deep Dragons got turned into....but is there any mention of Fang/Gray dragons or Brown Dragons in the book?
There is none, no. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Fizban's Treasury of Dragons
