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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jul 2021 : 19:13:22
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DMing is a commitment of time and energy, and it's something a lot of players are happy to leave to someone else.
One of my former gaming groups fell apart because only one person was willing to DM, and when I announced I wasn't going to play with him as my DM any more, no one else was willing to step up.
And I've seen many people, here and elsewhere, say things like "I'd love to play, but no one else in my group is willing to DM."
I think $75 an hour is way too much, especially with the limitations of it being a published module the person knows. For $75 an hour, I'd expect a nicely decorated game space to be provided, along with sound and lighting effects, and a DM who is eager to go off-script and run with whatever happens.
If I was part of a group that lacked a DM, I'd consider spending money to bring someone else in to run a game. Not $75 an hour, though, and the costs would be split evenly amongst all players. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2021 : 19:29:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think $75 an hour is way too much, especially with the limitations of it being a published module the person knows. For $75 an hour, I'd expect a nicely decorated game space to be provided, along with sound and lighting effects, and a DM who is eager to go off-script and run with whatever happens.
And snacks. A lot of snacks.
I don't know how economy works in the US, but here in my country $75 is way too much. I guess the word you would use is "outlandish".
I agree with Wooly, tho. DMing is a time consuming process, and I'm willing to pay for someone who DMs, as long as they are cool and charge more moderate prices  |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2021 : 20:52:00
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Half the games on Roll20 these days are pay-to-play. Most DMs charge $5-15 per player.
I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but that's definitely not the relationship I want with my players. I only DM for free. |
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2021 : 21:00:53
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| My problem with paid DMs is that it minimizes the work the players put in and bring to the table, and reinforces that mindset of the DM shouldering more. No matter how good the DM is, if the other players aren't fun to play with you won't have a good gaming space. The DM is a player too, and I think the extra work 5e throws on them really has cultivated the idea that so much of the work falls on their shoulders, and their shoulders alone all too often (the number of players who feel like they have no responsibility for the gaming space currently feels like they never developed a baseline understanding for it). And, while sadly common, I'm against that being the case or being acceptable. The players bear shared responsibility for the gaming space too. I think that mindset is a better one to teach for more positive and fun gaming spaces. The DM is a player and should be having fun as well, and the best way to do that is to remove stress and frustration so the fun of the story and campaign can take over. Paying the DM dissolves that agreement and player responsibility and further divorces the game from being a game for the DM. It's something that has been present for ages, sure, but 5e has really cultivated it due to the system design deferring so much onto the DM's shoulders in ways other systems generally haven't and then doesn't give them the support needed to minimize the stress of resolving problems that arise. |
Professional illustrator and comic book artist.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2021 : 23:04:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I don't know how economy works in the US, but here in my country $75 is way too much. I guess the word you would use is "outlandish".
It's a pretty fair amount in the US, too. From a quick Google search "The national median family income for the United States for FY 2020 is $78,500"
At $75 an hour, this DM could work a hair over 20 hours a week and get that same income. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2021 : 02:08:12
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Take what I'm about to say with a bit of understanding
Is that $75 for a one shot game, where he knows noone there, and he's showing up blind to DM for some people that he has no idea what they're like? If so, I see no problem with it. Game will probably run 3 to 5 hours, but he'll probably be putting in time before and after "virtually meeting" them, getting their address, paying for gas to go wherever it is (and it might be 2 hours away). You can't compare it to a regular job, because its not continuous, and there's down time that the players won't want to pay for (driving, arranging the meet, possibly reviewing character sheets before meeting for the game, etc...).
If he running it entirely virtually? Ok, so he saves a little time and gas money, but then he has to make running a webex type game fun, which a lot of DM's would have problems with (I personally would). Running a game not in person I would imagine has a lot of problems that a lot of us who only game in person have never had to deal with (specifically keeping players feeling involved since you can't see all their body signals).
Is it going to be a regular thing? Well, maybe the price goes down and/or becomes non-existent over time. DM's do put in more work than players (at least good DM's do). Even running a pregen module involves time outside the game rereading it, etc... and having to keep in mind what needs to happen when, all while balancing just how powerful players are, what items they have that might affect things, etc... to make things more challenging.
Now, have I personally ever charged to DM? Hells no..... I do it for free and only with the intent of finding a long term group, but I long ago quit meeting up with random people to play D&D (met some great people... met some weird low lives that I never want to meet again).... I usually know them pretty good before we ever approach starting up a new game nowadays. If I ever charged, I'd honestly see myself charging more than this price, because something would have to be weird about it if I'm charging.... and weird equals a risk of wasting my personal life and time.
Finally, this guy is in New York, so cost of living is different there too. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 10 Jul 2021 02:14:32 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2021 : 04:01:47
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Take what I'm about to say with a bit of understanding
Is that $75 for a one shot game, where he knows noone there, and he's showing up blind to DM for some people that he has no idea what they're like? If so, I see no problem with it. Game will probably run 3 to 5 hours, but he'll probably be putting in time before and after "virtually meeting" them, getting their address, paying for gas to go wherever it is (and it might be 2 hours away). You can't compare it to a regular job, because its not continuous, and there's down time that the players won't want to pay for (driving, arranging the meet, possibly reviewing character sheets before meeting for the game, etc...).
If he running it entirely virtually? Ok, so he saves a little time and gas money, but then he has to make running a webex type game fun, which a lot of DM's would have problems with (I personally would). Running a game not in person I would imagine has a lot of problems that a lot of us who only game in person have never had to deal with (specifically keeping players feeling involved since you can't see all their body signals).
Is it going to be a regular thing? Well, maybe the price goes down and/or becomes non-existent over time. DM's do put in more work than players (at least good DM's do). Even running a pregen module involves time outside the game rereading it, etc... and having to keep in mind what needs to happen when, all while balancing just how powerful players are, what items they have that might affect things, etc... to make things more challenging.
Now, have I personally ever charged to DM? Hells no..... I do it for free and only with the intent of finding a long term group, but I long ago quit meeting up with random people to play D&D (met some great people... met some weird low lives that I never want to meet again).... I usually know them pretty good before we ever approach starting up a new game nowadays. If I ever charged, I'd honestly see myself charging more than this price, because something would have to be weird about it if I'm charging.... and weird equals a risk of wasting my personal life and time.
Finally, this guy is in New York, so cost of living is different there too.
He's not charging $75 for a one-shot game. It's $75 an hour.
And with him specifying that it has to be a published module that he already knows, that means he's already done the background work and all that. He's explicitly setting this up so that he doesn't have to do that work again. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2021 : 06:13:52
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That's a little high but not outrageous especially for something like NYC.
In the rare cases where I don't DM friends; mostly parties, cons, etc:
I charge by the player per session. And prices vary, depending on various factors.
A one shot, pre-gened characters, is $50 a head, say 4 players for 3-4 hours comes to about $57 per hour.
(This is what most people who pay a DM are looking for.)
A short adventure that is 3-8 sessions I'll charge the same $50 a head if they meet monthly. But if they are willing to meet as often as 2x a week i'll go as low as $35. $57 to $40 an hour.
A campaign 9+ sessions requires more work starts at $60 a head goes as low as $40. $68-$45 an hour.
(No one seems to want this.)
Way I see it is you are paying someone to entertain you. How much are tickets to a magic show? Or a concert? And here you get to participate. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
Edited by - Gelcur on 10 Jul 2021 06:18:34 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2021 : 15:00:19
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-Eh, I live in New York and not that I know pricing but there's no way in hell I would pay $75 an hour for someone to DM a game. Or $75 a session. Maybe if it was like a legit, accomplished, published storyteller or someone like that, but some rando? Nope.
-My cousin owns a STEM childen's daycare in Prospect Heights (which is pretty yuppie) and obviously shit happened because of COVID, but I know he had a DM come in or was planning on it before everything shut down. I should text him and see who the guy was and what he charged. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 10 Jul 2021 15:07:29 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2021 : 15:04:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
Way I see it is you are paying someone to entertain you. How much are tickets to a magic show? Or a concert? And here you get to participate.
I've been to concerts and I've seen David Copperfield live. And no matter who I've gone to see, it was cheaper than $75 an hour.
There are two issues with your comparison.
One is that the people I've paid to go see are well-established in their particular industries. I wasn't paying to see some random yahoo read a book, I was paying to see a popular performer putting on a show, using tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment.
The other issue is that I can find people willing to DM for free. The number of people willing and able to make a car disappear from a stage for free, or to gather in a group and sing for a couple hours for free, is much smaller. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Jul 2021 15:09:28 |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2021 : 20:53:14
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As someone unfortunately firmly entrenched in Covid-induced unemployment (and even more frankly, someone tired of corporate employment), I wish I could find a group willing to pay me enough to DM them as often as their schedules allow and get paid for it.
I've been told I run a pretty fun game by my previous group, but the key would have to be meeting and knowing those friends well enough that you could rely on their support from week to week. Flaky no-shows would be even more of a disappointment to a DM getting paid than simple campaign inconsistencies or oversights needed to explain the absences, unless they paid in advance, in which case, they're effectively paying for a subscription to something they seldom use. We all know there's plenty of that around.
In the end though, I still don't think I could make enough, even at $75/hour, to pay the bills, no matter how much they loved the campaigns or how frequently they could play. This day and age, no one has that kind of time anymore. At best, it'd be an occasional Saturday or Sunday game income-augmentation, not something full time, and I certainly wouldn't charge $75/hour for that. Maybe $15. Run the game for 6 hours, great, a C note. Enough to support the game and allow me to buy things for the game to make it better for the players. |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
Edited by - Varl on 10 Jul 2021 20:53:46 |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2021 : 18:45:52
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Sex is also abundant and free but many people still pay for it, or at least so I hear.
Maybe a better example is Escape Rooms, in my area they start at $30 US and go up to $45 a head with the expectation of an hour of gameplay. I know these things are custom made and involve countless props, they do repeat them hundreds of times to make them "affordable".
Murder Mystery dinners I've gone to run from $50 to $75 a head the expectation is that includes a meal, but the meals are ALWAYS lackluster. And the level of individualized attention is very low. The small group of friend box sets are vastly superior experiences assuming you have someone willing to put in the effort to host it.
I personally rarely use modules and when I do I often cut them up and put them back together to serve my purposes. And most my friends though they love to play D&D haven't devoted a room of their house to collecting books, miniatures, costumes, and maps like I have. So they rely on me to bring these things to the table even when I'm not running the game.
I guess at the end of the day I think it comes down to quality. Showing up with a book and some dice is sort of the most basic definition of a DM, and is likely not worth anyone's money. Then again I would likely pay large sums of money to sit at a table with Ed even if he had NO BOOKS and NO DICE. :) *Dreaming of the day.* |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
Edited by - Gelcur on 13 Jul 2021 19:40:51 |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2021 : 15:53:09
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One of my friends (a former player of mine) is a professional DM who is paid by up to 5 different groups of players to run games each week. Not every group maintains cohesion making it difficult for him to tailor the adventure to each group. He also runs modules, and he says he does so to ensure his impartiality is kept with his players - no one can suspect him of favoritism if an item useful for one player turns up in a search for treasure or a hazard befalls a character for doing something that only that PC routinely does because the module was made by a third party. Without having to spend time and resources on creating an adventure each week, he spends it instead on practicing the game master elements that elicit the most positive responses from his clients.
I know for a fact that several of my ideas and methods of operation I used with him as a player he in turn uses with his players. He owns the pre-printed modules he runs for his players. Now that I think about it, he probably ran his groups through a murder-mystery adventure I wrote and ran for my friend's group some years ago on which he asked me for the notes before the lockdown. No skin off my nose, and I hope he had as much fun running it as he had playing it. I see it as no different than a professional baseball player buying the same bat for the same price as a recreational ball player but being paid millions of dollars to entertain ticket-buying fans whereas the rest of us are out in the community parks just entertaining ourselves on a lazy afternoon of playing ball. He's not selling my work or anybody else's as his own - he's selling his story-telling and refereeing services.
As for what players bring... would any of you consider an argument for a player to demand to be paid for his services as a player at your table? I've had players who were actors from hit television shows and had co-star billing in theater-released movies I would never consider paying to have their entertaining selves play in my games. The DM needs to posses the rules for perusal/researching of all the possible scenarios in a given adventure, but not so for the player. The DM has to make every session without fail because there is no game if he does not show up, but not so for the player who can have planned or unplanned absences for which the other players and DM must contrive some in-game excuse. The DM must ensure that his players are having fun and will want to keep coming back to complete their adventure, but not so the players. The DM sets the rules and is held responsible for informing the players of those rules, the players merely accept or propose modifying some rules with the threat of declining to play if the terms are not met. Questions about the most obtuse things in the fictional setting must be somehow answered by the DM, but not so the player who uses his PC to interact with the fictional world through the DM. A player can arrive for a session completely unprepared for anything the DM has in store, but not so the DM. The player has the choice of however interactive they want to be from constantly trying to do things or being as quiet as a church mouse throughout the entire session, but not so the DM. But that is just my opinion. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2021 : 10:46:45
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I am worth at least $75 an hour. ;-)
Value is relative. I can see this rate, but there are props, distinct voices, 3d maps.
The only concern I would have is a subconscious finger on the scale to keep your money makers alive. Worse yet, that they feel that will happen.
To SamoCon regarding players, why not?
These online versions like Critical Role generate ad revenue, right? I am not sure. That's not rhetorical. Somebody is getting paid I thought.
PS - Good to see Candlekeep is still alive. |
Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2021 : 01:11:42
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Why not a player who must be paid to be there? Let me break down the roles as I see of it for the GM and the player. The GM must: - verify access to the necessary game materials for oneself and one's players,
- devise or research a setting in which the players want to adventure,
- develop a plot or shoehorn pre-existing plots into that setting that one believes the players will have an interest,
- familiarize oneself with differing NPC personalities to RP at a moment's notice,
- act as the interface for the players to manipulate actions in this fictional reality,
- arbitrate every conflict,
- be accountable for every mistake in conveying the fictional world to the players,
- be accountable for following the rules one laid out directly or implicitly to the players before the game started,
- make the decision between fairness, fudging, and ending the session when gameplay leads to frustration loops for the players,
- keep meticulous notes of setting changes so that the players' cognitive understanding of the fictional world is always correct,
- and bring the fun for every session by catering to the players' wants.
The players also have a list of expectations. They must: - abide by the rules they directly or implicitly agree to before the game starts,
- commit to playing a character,
- and reasonably agree to adventure.
To that end the players may, at their discretion,:- show up for every game session,
- reasonably get along with other players,
- inform the GM of their wants from the game,
- bring their own game resources like character sheets & rules they frequently use during play,
- familiarize themselves with the rules and available setting materials,
- roleplay their character in consistent ways that are entertaining & productive to the adventure,
- and do extra work (i.e., logging gleaned notes online so that all players have access to information or mapping a dungeon crawl).
Paying a player to show up and do these things is like paying people to play a MMORPG or to go through your escape room - it is done not for the enjoyment of the game. Yes, I know about play testers, but none of them are doing it to have fun with whatever other people are involved. Most players want to enjoy a leisure game, not work for it. Paying a GM to run a game is no different than buying a CRPG or tickets to an escape room. The market follows that model with more people wanting to play games than people willing to run those games for the amusement of others.
If it wasn't for the fact that I can really only handle one play group at a time, I might also be a DM for hire. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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A DM for rent
